One week experience with EQS 450+
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223.168 & 213.012 & 906.633 & 214.005
On an EV like EQS AWD 450 would mean a less powerful rear motor compared to the current 450? They cannot do it like for ICE cars, no way to run a propeller shaft through the batteries.
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17 E43; 21 GLS580
Its not about power, its about platform. You need 2 motors to do awd. The rear motors are identical. In fact, the basic "skateboard" architecture of all EVs is basically identical. The difference lies in what you attach to it. On steady state situations the 580 and 450 run identically, thats why their range is almost the same. The front activates almost exclusively if you poke the accelerator or if there is wheel slippage. Another reason the range is so similar is the 580 has 2 generators which can provide almost twice the regen! Very elegant, but again, the same thing all other manufacturers do in their dual motor designs.
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The other advantage of front motors on EV's is that the front motor regen provides greater vehicle stability than rear motor regen. Which would tend to limit the amount of regen that you can apply in a turn. Same as proportional braking on an ICE car.
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From: WI
17 E43; 21 GLS580
Bought a dealer lot EQS 450+ last week from the NYC metro area. $117K MSRP but no hyperscreen. Here’re some experiences from a week of ownership that I thought were unexpected and I have not seen mentioned elsewhere, in no particular order. Some items are fairly in the weeds but hopefully there's something of interest for everyone.
- The extended mobility tires are Pirelli P-Zero Elect A/S 265/40R21. 500 A A rating. I believe this is a brand new line of tires from Pirelli. They’re very grippy, even at near-freezing temperatures. But they do seem to ride a bit firmer at the recommended 41 PSI than similarly sized Michelin PS4 summer and Latitude A/S tires I’ve had on other cars.
- The ride height is not user-adjustable. This was a surprise as the website and even owner’s manual prominently mentioned this feature. I confirmed with my local dealer and the selling dealer that this is true for all US-spec (non-review) cars. They said there needs to be a code for the “suspension plus” feature which US cars don’t have. I wasn’t able to get confirmation on whether the ride height lowers at high speeds or if the suspension is self-leveling. The damping does seem to be adjustable as advertised.
- There is an enormous cavity under the hood in the 450+. It is beneath the massive HEPA filter and connecting air ducts but could easily be converted to a frunk for at least carry-on sized luggage if the packaging of the filter had been slightly different. But it seems reasonable that the empty space will at least partially be occupied in the dual-motor EQS models which is why there's no frunk.
- Related, the hood opens normally with a lever underneath the driver-side dash. The HEPA filters (there are two sequential filters) is front and center under there and can be changed with just 3 clips, so much easier than a regular cabin air filter that often lives in hard-to-reach corners.
- The acceleration from a standstill and above around 75MPH is amazing. The motor seems to have lots of torque off the line and sustained torque higher in the rev-range. Compared with my other car, a Tesla Model Y with a faster 0-60 time, the EQS feels faster at low and high speeds. The Tesla is faster in the midrange, roughly 30-60 MPH.
- The brakes are genius. The Vehicle Info screen shows that the first 40% of pedal travel applies 10% of brake pressure, with the remaining 90% brake applied by the last 60% of pedal in a very predictable manner. It’s very easy to drive smoothly by using the first 40% of brakes and easy to drive in a sporty manner by mostly braking with the remaining 60%.
- The ride in “Comfort” mode feels much firmer than the W223 S-class that I test drove earlier. There is no mistaking an EQS for an S-class if someone were to ride in them blind-folded and with earplugs. The may be partially caused by the 21in wheels on the EQS.
- All parts of the car I could reach, including all exterior body panels, don’t stick to magnets. So they’re likely all Aluminum, or other lighter metal/alloys/carbon material.
- The rapid heating seats take about a minute to warm up from near-freezing temperature.
- There is a traditional H6-sized 12V lead-acid battery under the hood.
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From: Europe
223.168 & 213.012 & 906.633 & 214.005
Its not about power, its about platform. You need 2 motors to do awd. The rear motors are identical. In fact, the basic "skateboard" architecture of all EVs is basically identical. The difference lies in what you attach to it. On steady state situations the 580 and 450 run identically, thats why their range is almost the same. The front activates almost exclusively if you poke the accelerator or if there is wheel slippage. Another reason the range is so similar is the 580 has 2 generators which can provide almost twice the regen! Very elegant, but again, the same thing all other manufacturers do in their dual motor designs.
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From: WI
17 E43; 21 GLS580
Isn't the 450 describing the engine power of the EQS, 580 meaning more power than that on a 450? This is why I assume a 450 AWD could not have the same rear engine power as the RWD EQS450. A reduced power rear engine again does not make any sense which is why I thought an AWD EQS450 would not make sense.
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From: Europe
223.168 & 213.012 & 906.633 & 214.005
Seems I cannot formulate my message well, perhaps my language problem. I know the 450 and 580 rear engines are the same. All I'm saying is that adding a front engine to a RWD EQS450 makes it more powerful than an EQS450 and then it isn't a 450 any more (but something between EQS450 and EQS580). Just a dumb comment on the EQS450 AWD, I'll leave it here.
EDIT: initially the response was to this sentence: "Watch them add AWD to the 450 model later on" on an earlier post.
EDIT: initially the response was to this sentence: "Watch them add AWD to the 450 model later on" on an earlier post.
Last edited by Diesel Benz; Dec 30, 2021 at 11:56 AM.
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2014 Mercedes E350 4matic Wagon, 2018 Fiat 124 Spyder Lusso manual, 2005 Acura TSX manual
Seems I cannot formulate my message well, perhaps my language problem. I know the 450 and 580 rear engines are the same. All I'm saying is that adding a front engine to a RWD EQS450 makes it more powerful than an EQS450 and then it isn't a 450 any more (but something between EQS450 and EQS580). Just a dumb comment on the EQS450 AWD, I'll leave it here.
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From: WI
17 E43; 21 GLS580
The guys in Norway are getting around 260 highway miles at or below freezing in messy conditions. Not bad, given that cold weather can cause around a 30% reduction. Those Norway bloggers are a nutty lot😁.
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2014 Mercedes E350 4matic Wagon, 2018 Fiat 124 Spyder Lusso manual, 2005 Acura TSX manual
Edmunds got 422 miles on a 450+ in warm California. I hope that's a common and reachable range!
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From: WI
17 E43; 21 GLS580
As all estimates say "your milage will vary". The EPA estimate is a safe assumption: 350 even in mostly highway driving which is the worst scenario for an EV. Again the EQS aerodynamics make it particularly good for the highway compared to other EVs. Their extraordinary efforts in that particular front are no mystery since the normal highway speed in most of Europe is 80mph. SUVs in particular will hurt on the highway due to their inevitable boxy shape.
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From: WI
17 E43; 21 GLS580
If my car arrives before March Ill let you know how it does in truly frigid conditions. Jan and Feb around here can be below -20F absolute temp! A day sitting at an open parking lot at those temps is the ultimate test 😁
Im certain there will be a lot of power used simply keeping the battery warm.
Im certain there will be a lot of power used simply keeping the battery warm.
Last edited by c4004matic; Dec 30, 2021 at 02:03 PM.
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2010 E350 4Matic
Sat in a EQS450+ today. The one I looked at was white and they had a black 580 which to my surprise didn't look that much better. The instrument cluster didn't look as bad as I think that it would on the W223 because the high dash gives it a more integrated look. Which gives me some hope for the EQE. Thought the seats seemed kind of cheap looking / feeling definitely not S Class plush. Not wild about the relatively narrow (top to bottom) windshield. Liked the hatch configuration and the voluminous space there.
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From: WI
17 E43; 21 GLS580
I haven't run the numbers, but in general very cold or very hot operation carries a penalty of around 30%. The the reports from guys in Norway of winter driving ranges of around 260 miles sound completely plausible. In fact that is actually an excellent range for that particular codition. Let's not forget an EV even with a huge battery as the EQ has the energy of around a few gallons of gas. Any parastic losses such as running the AC compressor or the heating system will cut significantly into the range. Particularly the heater, in a gas vehicle the heater runs on "wasted" heat. In effect increasing the overall efficiency of the gas engine. A EV needs to warm not only the cabin but also the battery itself! I'm guessing that running at 0C virtually cancels all the energy provided from regen. Again these are all best guesses. Thats why the EPA range is useful as an average, yes you can get over 400 miles real world BUT..... in adverse conditions it could be 260! Caveat emptor.
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From: WI
17 E43; 21 GLS580
I haven't run the numbers, but in general very cold or very hot operation carries a penalty of around 30%. The the reports from guys in Norway of winter driving ranges of around 260 miles sound completely plausible. In fact that is actually an excellent range for that particular codition. Let's not forget an EV even with a huge battery as the EQ has the energy of around a few gallons of gas. Any parastic losses such as running the AC compressor or the heating system will cut significantly into the range. Particularly the heater, in a gas vehicle the heater runs on "wasted" heat. In effect increasing the overall efficiency of the gas engine. A EV needs to warm not only the cabin but also the battery itself! I'm guessing that running at 0C virtually cancels all the energy provided from regen. Again these are all best guesses. Thats why the EPA range is useful as an average, yes you can get over 400 miles real world BUT..... in adverse conditions it could be 260! Caveat emptor.
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2022 EQS 450+
Test drove an EQS 450+ and it's a car I love but will never buy.
The car I drove was an early build (production #1,000) and it didn't have many of the features that make an S-Class so special. Some of it was due to supply chain issues (no soft closing or convenience closing doors, ventilated seats) but some were just inherently poor design choices, chief of which (and my real dealbreaker) was the lack of back seat comfort as the seat backs are too upright and the seat bottoms angled too far back. The combination of the two means that your knees are too high and torso too far forward for comfort. Not sure how power rear seats might help that since space seems too limited to do anything approaching S580 rear seat comfort.
I absolutely love the ride, the rear cargo accommodations, silence, driving feel, and technology; can live with some of the supply chain issues; but that back seat is intolerable.
Geez I wish MB would bring the S580e to the states. Maybe an enterprising dealer can put together a group buy to make it worthwhile...
The car I drove was an early build (production #1,000) and it didn't have many of the features that make an S-Class so special. Some of it was due to supply chain issues (no soft closing or convenience closing doors, ventilated seats) but some were just inherently poor design choices, chief of which (and my real dealbreaker) was the lack of back seat comfort as the seat backs are too upright and the seat bottoms angled too far back. The combination of the two means that your knees are too high and torso too far forward for comfort. Not sure how power rear seats might help that since space seems too limited to do anything approaching S580 rear seat comfort.
I absolutely love the ride, the rear cargo accommodations, silence, driving feel, and technology; can live with some of the supply chain issues; but that back seat is intolerable.
Geez I wish MB would bring the S580e to the states. Maybe an enterprising dealer can put together a group buy to make it worthwhile...
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Test drove an EQS 450+ and it's a car I love but will never buy.
The car I drove was an early build (production #1,000) and it didn't have many of the features that make an S-Class so special. Some of it was due to supply chain issues (no soft closing or convenience closing doors, ventilated seats) but some were just inherently poor design choices, chief of which (and my real dealbreaker) was the lack of back seat comfort as the seat backs are too upright and the seat bottoms angled too far back. The combination of the two means that your knees are too high and torso too far forward for comfort. Not sure how power rear seats might help that since space seems too limited to do anything approaching S580 rear seat comfort.
I absolutely love the ride, the rear cargo accommodations, silence, driving feel, and technology; can live with some of the supply chain issues; but that back seat is intolerable.
Geez I wish MB would bring the S580e to the states. Maybe an enterprising dealer can put together a group buy to make it worthwhile...
The car I drove was an early build (production #1,000) and it didn't have many of the features that make an S-Class so special. Some of it was due to supply chain issues (no soft closing or convenience closing doors, ventilated seats) but some were just inherently poor design choices, chief of which (and my real dealbreaker) was the lack of back seat comfort as the seat backs are too upright and the seat bottoms angled too far back. The combination of the two means that your knees are too high and torso too far forward for comfort. Not sure how power rear seats might help that since space seems too limited to do anything approaching S580 rear seat comfort.
I absolutely love the ride, the rear cargo accommodations, silence, driving feel, and technology; can live with some of the supply chain issues; but that back seat is intolerable.
Geez I wish MB would bring the S580e to the states. Maybe an enterprising dealer can put together a group buy to make it worthwhile...
Maybe that would at least help by providing a more relaxed rear seat position. Are you regularly spending time in the back seat of your car?The upcoming BMW i7 and 7-Series PHEV may be the best option for you then as it will likely mimic the current gen's rear seat accommodations, that being said you also have to be able to withstand some of BMW's current design choices.
Last edited by js_cls; Dec 31, 2021 at 03:29 PM.
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You are right. Also, keep in mind that 2/3 of the energy from an ICE is wasted as heat so you get the heat as a byproduct to moving the car. Electric motors are very efficient with little energy wasted and i think most of the little heat produced is used heating the battery and the passengers. My point was that writing "50% decrease due to cabin heating" is simply incorrect and easily proven.
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17 E43; 21 GLS580
I have never run heat. The A/C runs 100% of the time to keep the cabin at 65°F. Today, as an experiment on my E300 I ran an identical 10 mile course and speed with and without the A/C (ambient air 87°F). The results were surprising - with A/C on 21 mpg as displayed on the vehicle's instrument panel; with A/C off 26 mpg was displayed. That represents a 24% penalty for using A/C. I wonder if electric vehicles have similar results.
