MB37

If you are lurker and having the EV itch, now is a good time to get serious, get your financing together, and go out and get an EV. It's not going to get better than this situation especially for MB and Tesla. Productions are high (inventory), many last year left overs, many choices, and price competition is high. Wait until after tax season will put you in competition with other buyers. I am not advocating FOMO.

I realized that searching through CarGuru and the likes, used EVs like the EQS is going for almost half price from MSRP with less than 10K miles or less. That type of depreciation is like the "normal or higher than" depreciation of luxury autos of years past. If you daily is not going further than 120 miles, have room for level 2 home charging, then don't sit around waiting for more energy dense and lighter battery tech. It will likely be a few more years out. Electric motor as a powertrain is the idle tech for small land vehicles just like carbon fiber is the the ideal material for helicopter blades.

Crito

I think it's a great time to buy a used EV with cash. Not so sure about financing a new one tho and looks to me like real estate market is the next shoe to drop. They've built way too many new houses too.

SW20S

Can't speak to the EV world but I can the RE world and that can't be further from the truth. Demand is way higher than supply in almost all major markets.

Drone_S213

Old Roommate who retired Army Engineering Civil Service who owns a 2023 BMW M850i droptop, just purchased his second e-Bike. Lives in Navy Yard area of DC by the Nats Stadium in new Condo with limited outside parking. The range of eBikes 40-50 miles for him with top speed of 28-40mph. Prices were around $2,000 for each but most recent "WIRED" purchase is upgraded to 60V from the original 48V. At 40 amps max power is 2400W which will do 40mph. Sometimes his BMW sits for a week in his underground parking garage when weather is good for biking. Penthouse Clubhouse which is usually empty Is used to assemble, tuneup, and upgrade his e-Bikes. Uses bikes for exercise around the entire DMV area plus at night cruises the DC Bar Nightlife Scene without worrying about parking or getting a DUI.

MB37

I think the RE (real estate) market is quite specific to location and even to zip codes. But in the Houston metro area, prices have to come down 20%-30% from asking to get to pre pandemic sold prices. Home prices go up very quickly, but they historically descend very slowly. Affordability index is through the roof right now. I don't have a clear answer.

But if you can't buy a house now, then get an EV instead.

SW20S

You need a fundamental swap in supply and demand to see prices come down, and the issue is there is just not demand coming to meet that supply.

superswiss

The below video came up in my feed today and it's worth watching on this subject. I disagree quite a bit with what OP is proposing and Harry does a great job laying out why buying an EV now is not a good idea. Obviously some of his reasons are a bit specific to the UK, but much of what he says applies across the board. I know diesel is not really a thing in the USA, but I travel a lot and have done long road trips in Europe with diesel rental cars. Being able to do 1000 km on a tank on a long trip is a huge advantage.

FWIW, I recently had an EQS 450+ loaner and I liked it quite a bit as a car to get from the dealership and back. They gave it to me with 86% charge, so for the two days I had it, I didn't need to charge and as opposed to the gas loaners, I wasn't required to return it with the same battery charge. I would not buy one, though. Partly for what Harry says. These are just big, heavy and expensive cars. Even parking the thing around here is challenging.

HBerman

I agree on the EQS+ as a large vehicle. It's basically the length of an S- class car and 1000 lbs heavier. I've come from my E63S wagon to the AMG EQE SUV which is the same length as the wagon. The suspension on the new ride makes it feel the same as the wagon and the AMG dynamic suspension package enables the car to make virtually flat turns. Of course, the acceleration of the car is actually better than the wagon. So far, I'm not missing going to a gas station. My total electric costs for 700 miles is $26.54 . Comparable premium gas cost would have been more than $130.

MB37

Back in the 90s, you couldn't practically drive a Diablo or an F40 as a daily since the technology was not available for you to use a supercar as a daily. Now, there is a list of supercar performance cars that you could drive daily. Harry is really picking the weak points of EV such as towing, current lack of supercharging infrastructures, and a bit misleading or outdated data on battery degradation to make his points. While these points have some validity, his presentation is not balance and rarely makes any positive points of EV.

It's interesting that Drone_S213 talked about an e-bike vs. a full on ICE. This highlights the specific case where EV (I have two e-bikes) is the preferred and more efficient way to get around. People need to evaluate their daily transportation needs, and if an EV fits the bill, get it. There's a lot of EV detractors out there, but this time around (there have been many EV starters since the automobile age), the technologies have given EV a very compelling reason as an alternative and viable powertrain.

I waited until now to get an EV because I see that the technology is mature enough that it can be practical and efficient for my daily transportation needs and wants. Additionally, a comparable ICE cannot match the performance of an EV despite its weight. When the R35 GTR first came out and compared to the 911 TT, people thought it was a pig. Sure, a 6000lb EQS can be felt on a curve at high speed, but the lower center of gravity and other tech will do the trick just fine. Old school motorhead used to say that "there's no replacement for displacement." True in the laws of physics. But slap a FI on top of the same displacement, and you just checked physics with technology.

Similar to the e-brake, pedal moving acceleration, and electronic steering, auto reviewers and youtubers alike are all missing the point. It's new to them, and they have not gotten used to it. Personally, after a month of driving the EQS in different regen modes, the AMG's programming, while not perfect (what is) is brilliant! Because I drive with 2 feet operation, I know exactly when the brake pedal moves and in what regen mode, and power adjustments of the accelerator pedal work in conjunction with the regen mode.

With ICE, you downshift (and maybe brake) on the corner/curve and you accelerate out of it. With EV, you keep it in the regen mode you want, add brake pedal as needed, and accelerate out. No gears shift. Once you learned that corner or curve, you basically let the regen do the braking and just modulate on the accelerator. This is a big advantage for those majority single foot drivers who want to go fast.

MBNUT1

Waiting for this to stabilize

stealth.pilot

All the German brands have jacked up the prices so much. It's insane.

These companies are out of touch. They are all trying the LVMH pricing strategy, but I don't think it's going to work. It's basically ****ing over the loyal customers who used to buy new cars by shafting us with insane depreciation.

The problem they have is they took the lead from Tesla. Tesla did massive price increases Because they wanted to internalize the ADM or flipper margin. However as the market cooled, they cut the prices back to their normal levels. The problem for the German OEMs is they did the same thing because they wanted a slice of the massive ADMs the dealers were charging, but unlike the dealers and Tesla, they haven't cut the markup so now these cars are stuck at very high prices when there is no longer a scarcity issue. So the customers are taking massive depreciation. Imagine you were one of the people who bought a $145k loaded EQS580 and paid a $25k ADM 2 years ago. You would now have lost $100k on that car in 2 years. Nobody wants to sign up for that.

HBerman

I don't think that the elevated prices are reserved just for EVs. The ICE cars are also jacked up and have been for quite a while. This is one of the reasons that I never purchase a vehicle and only lease it. I can see up front what the expected depreciation will be at the time of the lease end. If I choose to purchase the car at that time, there is a set price. If the depreciation is not as much as was assumed at the start, then there will be equity in the vehicle. If it is substantial enough (as it was for my E63S wagon), I'll use that as a trade-in for the next car and lower the capitalized cost. The last time I received over $23,000 for my E63S wagon trade-in because the residual value at lease start was too low. YMMV

thebigkat82

all facts!

SW20S

Great time to LEASE an EV. I wouldn't buy one. I myself am seriously considering a BMW i7 but I would never buy one, too much downside risk.

MB2timer

Carbon fiber helicopter blades have excellent strength, weight, and lifespan properties.
They have poor inertial performance, poor erosion resistance, and are difficult if not impossible to repair compared to their metal counterparts.
It’s a trade off depending on the application, and difficult to determine in absolute terms the best material to make rotor blades from.
The k-max is a relatively new design, certainly one of the newest, and it has wooden main rotor blades.
Thomas Sowell, echoing Milton Friedman, is quoting that our civilization has come to the point where there are no solutions left. Only trade offs.

LastOne

The video presents an interesting perspective. There are many factors to the EV vs ICE decision, and one size does not fit all. Each buyer needs to decide what is right for their situation and what they can live with.

The one nugget that I got from the video is there must be a way to determine the remaining battery life. We can do this with out smartphones and laptops, and must have this with EV's even if they present virtual battery ranges. This measurement will be critical for a used car buyer to help assess what they may be getting as there is no way to know how the battery was treated and charged.

EV's have changed the conventional wisdom about car perceptions as they relate to lease vs buy, depreciation, long-term ownership, trip planning, and knowing how to take care of the battery.

superswiss

Yes, that's probably the key takeaway and the main reason why used EV values are dropping like rocks. Used batteries are worth literally nothing. They don't even have scrap value. Recycling is a pipe dream at the moment, only 10% of existing lithium batteries are being recycled, because it's not economically viable and there's no market for used batteries. On the contrary, you have to pay to get rid of your used battery and w/o the battery, the rest of the car is equally worthless. Consumers are slowly catching on to this. It's becoming a prohibitively expensive proposition to own an electric car w/o subsidized leases. But then you still have to deal with the increasing difficulty of getting insurance at a reasonable price. You gonna pay one way or the other. EVs are cheaper to charge compared to fueling up an ICE, but you just pay in much higher depreciation and insurance premiums. There's a high chance EVs will become economically unviable if insurances refuse to insure them or only at very steep premiums. For some of what Harry said, you have to understand that some insurances in the UK have as much as tripled the insurance premiums for EVs. It isn't as bad yet here in the USA, but it's gonna get there. Just like it's becoming increasingly difficult in some areas of California to get home insurance due to the increasing fire risk. Some insurances are no longer issuing policies in California at all. That's gonna be fun if nobody is going to insure your house and car anymore.

SW20S

Thats why you lease, depreciation is baked in. When I can drive a $135,000 EQS for $750 a month vs a $135,000 S580 for $2,100 a month, and I don't have to pay $400 a month to fuel it, who cares about depreciation?

What you will find is leasing will become more and more popular than it already is.

superswiss

Yes, as I said, as long as the leases are subsidized. That's starting to change as well. If you watched the video one of Harry's reasons was that the diesel range rover's lease was like 600 pounds, but comparable PHEV and EVs were almost double. If the asset is worthless after a 3 year lease, which financing company is gonna wanna lease them at a loss? The tax credits are going away eventually as well.

SW20S

But that means nothing it us since we don't have that Range Rover here. The auto manufacturers provide their own financing, if they want to sell cars they need to do what they need to do to sell cars. Tax credits are already basically gone, a $7,500 tax credit most of us who are in these price brackets don't qualify for anyways isn't a real motivator.

The asset won't have no value after 3 years.

MB37

I don't think high insurance premium it is based on the cost of the battery replacement but rather on the cost of replacing / repairing the electronics that go into these EVs. Because it is new tech, there are fewer suppliers and acquisition cost is higher. Therefore, higher premiums. MB gives you 10 years/155K miles for the EQS as long as the battery maintains 70% of its original charge. Unless there are battery defects the surface after the warranty period, you will be replacing a bunch of other things before the battery.

This video below talks about the longevity of the battery and now much potential mileage it can yield in it's lifespan when taken care of properly. I agree, there is not a simple way to test every cell for defects and SoH (state of health) right now, but that's just another business opportunity. While a whole battery replacement may cost $20K-$50K now, like everything tech, prices will decrease over time.

If you are smart with leasing, go for it. The manufacturer and government are trying to push EV. Leave the politics out and take advantage of what they are giving you assuming you have evaluated your transportation needs and wants.

superswiss

The high insurance premiums are happening because of a much higher rate of write offs even after minor accidents. Mainly three factors that are contributing to this. After a collision, nobody knows the health of the battery. Secondly, the increasing use of unibody constructions to lower production costs makes it more expensive to repair and thirdly, parts are hard to come by. Also, electric cars have some of the worst reliability ratings. The quality of them is not great overall. Manufacturers have to cut a lot of costs and corners to make them profitable. They'll work out leasing and stuff, but I hope you like lots of even more cheap plastic all over and not fully backed electronics and software.

SW20S

Insurance premiums aren't higher than the gas savings I would have...no cheapness inside the i7, EQS yes.

superswiss

BMW is currently doing the smart thing by sharing a platform between their ICE and EVs, so they are virtually the same. What's holding you back? Why aren't you driving an i7 yet?

SW20S

I still really enjoy my S560 for one, and the second is concerns about charging when traveling.