EQS Main Battery Replacement(and Used EQS Value)
#1
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2015 S550 4Matic
EQS Main Battery Replacement(and Used EQS Value)
I historically have sold my S-class cars(gas) when they are about 10 years old. Since Mercedes (gas) have a reputation of "running forever" the resale value declines slowly after the first 5-10 years.
I am considering a EQS for my next car. I suspect one of the factors effecting the rapid decline in EQS resale value is the "fear of the unknown" as it relates to the lifetime of the main propulsion battery and the cost to replace. Mercedes warrantees the battery capacity for 8 years(from new) will exceed 80%(I believe) of original specification. Since "Range" is a significant issue in Electric Cars and my guess is battery capacity declines more rapidly after the initial 8 years, a 10 year old EQS will probably need a replacement. It probably too early to have an active marketplace for battery replacement, I assume it will be difficult to know the costs. Does anyone have knowledgeable/educated guess on this cost?
I am considering a EQS for my next car. I suspect one of the factors effecting the rapid decline in EQS resale value is the "fear of the unknown" as it relates to the lifetime of the main propulsion battery and the cost to replace. Mercedes warrantees the battery capacity for 8 years(from new) will exceed 80%(I believe) of original specification. Since "Range" is a significant issue in Electric Cars and my guess is battery capacity declines more rapidly after the initial 8 years, a 10 year old EQS will probably need a replacement. It probably too early to have an active marketplace for battery replacement, I assume it will be difficult to know the costs. Does anyone have knowledgeable/educated guess on this cost?
#2
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I historically have sold my S-class cars(gas) when they are about 10 years old. Since Mercedes (gas) have a reputation of "running forever" the resale value declines slowly after the first 5-10 years.
I am considering a EQS for my next car. I suspect one of the factors effecting the rapid decline in EQS resale value is the "fear of the unknown" as it relates to the lifetime of the main propulsion battery and the cost to replace. Mercedes warrantees the battery capacity for 8 years(from new) will exceed 80%(I believe) of original specification. Since "Range" is a significant issue in Electric Cars and my guess is battery capacity declines more rapidly after the initial 8 years, a 10 year old EQS will probably need a replacement. It probably too early to have an active marketplace for battery replacement, I assume it will be difficult to know the costs. Does anyone have knowledgeable/educated guess on this cost?
I am considering a EQS for my next car. I suspect one of the factors effecting the rapid decline in EQS resale value is the "fear of the unknown" as it relates to the lifetime of the main propulsion battery and the cost to replace. Mercedes warrantees the battery capacity for 8 years(from new) will exceed 80%(I believe) of original specification. Since "Range" is a significant issue in Electric Cars and my guess is battery capacity declines more rapidly after the initial 8 years, a 10 year old EQS will probably need a replacement. It probably too early to have an active marketplace for battery replacement, I assume it will be difficult to know the costs. Does anyone have knowledgeable/educated guess on this cost?
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hlothery (04-15-2024)
#3
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I have never considered the resale value on any of my Mercedes, BMW’s or Porsche vehicles. They are the world’s worst investment. I buy them for the enjoyment of the ride and technology. Your mileage may vary. 😊
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#4
The emotional reaction to the disposal of a 10-year old car that has served you well and given a lot of enjoyment may cause some anguish. It is an expense not an investment, so any residual value at that time would be a bonus. If you cannot handle it having little or no value then consider leasing.
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The short answer is we don't know what we don't know. Currently, battery recycling is not economical, so there is effectively no market for used batteries. The reason EV values are dropping fast is because nobody really knows what value is left in a used EV. The most expensive part of an EV is the battery and it has effectively no resale value. It doesn't even have scrap value. That's the basic crux. Any resale value is currently based on the perceived remaining use left of the battery, but there is currently no way to determine the health of a used EV battery, so you don't even know what you are buying. You don't know how often the battery was fast charged to at least somewhat gauge the health of it.
As for the general sentiment above, I agree. I also never bought a car for its resale value, but I buy cars as toys mostly that are emotional to me, such as AMGs. I buy them for the experience and I pay cash, so the purchase of the car is a sunk cost and I only spend that money if I don't miss it. When time comes to sell the car, then whatever it's still worth at the time is money that I didn't have before, so as said above it's a bonus. This is also why I lack interest in owning an EV. To me they are not exciting enough as a toy to wanna spend money on them. They make great commuter cars, but I don't commute and I technically don't need a car. If I did commute I'd probably get an EV just for commuting and then I would lease in order to project the cost and also EVs are still so early in their lifecycle the next model is likely vastly improved, so long term ownership isn't that appealing for the current EVs as things are changing and improving so rapidly.
As for the general sentiment above, I agree. I also never bought a car for its resale value, but I buy cars as toys mostly that are emotional to me, such as AMGs. I buy them for the experience and I pay cash, so the purchase of the car is a sunk cost and I only spend that money if I don't miss it. When time comes to sell the car, then whatever it's still worth at the time is money that I didn't have before, so as said above it's a bonus. This is also why I lack interest in owning an EV. To me they are not exciting enough as a toy to wanna spend money on them. They make great commuter cars, but I don't commute and I technically don't need a car. If I did commute I'd probably get an EV just for commuting and then I would lease in order to project the cost and also EVs are still so early in their lifecycle the next model is likely vastly improved, so long term ownership isn't that appealing for the current EVs as things are changing and improving so rapidly.
Last edited by superswiss; 04-12-2024 at 12:26 AM.
#6
Senior Member
Sometime during the last 12 months or so on this site, I saw a post discussing the actual replacement of an EQS HV battery under warranty and the work-document given to the customer at the end indicated a battery (part only) cost of $50,000. For the poster, this was fortunately covered by warranty...but it was an interesting bit of information. When purchasing my EQE SUV, I was of the mindset that I would like to keep the car for about 17 years. (I kept my last one, a Volvo, for 21 years). Since it seems these new vehicles are "rolling computers", I now realize how ridiculous my mindset was. I will be happy -- and amazed -- if I can even get 10 years. I worry that EV's will follow the path of iPhones. Software features and upgrades in the future will eventually indicate that perfectly functioning old hardware is "no longer supported" ...forcing a hardware upgrade.
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#8
You all remind me of the old washing machines of the 80s versus the new ones. I used to fix commercial washer and dryers, and man, those things can take abuse. They kept running and running, and as long as you can weld, have parts to replace, they were indestructible. Nowadays, you have to pay to play. If not, stick with what is tried and true, and you mileage will go a long way. As for these EQS, I think the tech is there to be viable for a good 10 years. After that, it can serve as a golf cart, a whip around the track, or a hand me down beginner's car. If you're a DIY, you can make a temporary battery generator for your garage fridge. The sky's the limit was far as what you can hack with these used EVs. I'll either be dead or have moved on to the next best thing. There's always organizations that will come and roll these babies off our property should that be the worst case scenario.
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#9
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You all remind me of the old washing machines of the 80s versus the new ones. I used to fix commercial washer and dryers, and man, those things can take abuse. They kept running and running, and as long as you can weld, have parts to replace, they were indestructible. Nowadays, you have to pay to play. If not, stick with what is tried and true, and you mileage will go a long way. As for these EQS, I think the tech is there to be viable for a good 10 years. After that, it can serve as a golf cart, a whip around the track, or a hand me down beginner's car. If you're a DIY, you can make a temporary battery generator for your garage fridge. The sky's the limit was far as what you can hack with these used EVs. I'll either be dead or have moved on to the next best thing. There's always organizations that will come and roll these babies off our property should that be the worst case scenario. ![Stick Out Tongue](https://mbworld.org/forums/images/smilies/tongue.gif)
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#10
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I historically have sold my S-class cars(gas) when they are about 10 years old. Since Mercedes (gas) have a reputation of "running forever" the resale value declines slowly after the first 5-10 years.
I am considering a EQS for my next car. I suspect one of the factors effecting the rapid decline in EQS resale value is the "fear of the unknown" as it relates to the lifetime of the main propulsion battery and the cost to replace. Mercedes warrantees the battery capacity for 8 years(from new) will exceed 80%(I believe) of original specification. Since "Range" is a significant issue in Electric Cars and my guess is battery capacity declines more rapidly after the initial 8 years, a 10 year old EQS will probably need a replacement. It probably too early to have an active marketplace for battery replacement, I assume it will be difficult to know the costs. Does anyone have knowledgeable/educated guess on this cost?
I am considering a EQS for my next car. I suspect one of the factors effecting the rapid decline in EQS resale value is the "fear of the unknown" as it relates to the lifetime of the main propulsion battery and the cost to replace. Mercedes warrantees the battery capacity for 8 years(from new) will exceed 80%(I believe) of original specification. Since "Range" is a significant issue in Electric Cars and my guess is battery capacity declines more rapidly after the initial 8 years, a 10 year old EQS will probably need a replacement. It probably too early to have an active marketplace for battery replacement, I assume it will be difficult to know the costs. Does anyone have knowledgeable/educated guess on this cost?
Last edited by c4004matic; 04-12-2024 at 06:53 PM.
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MB37 (04-13-2024)
#11
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There's only one problem with that. Current lithium recycling methods require temperatures in excess of 1000C or corrosive chemicals and therefore use up to 45% more energy and produce up to 20% more emissions than mining fresh lithium. Recycling aluminum on the other hand uses 95% less energy than making new aluminum. Lithium is nothing like aluminum. Supposedly, German researchers have found a more efficient method, but it's only been demonstrated at lab scale. This is why currently less than 10% of lithium batteries are getting recycled. The vast majority ends up in landfills. At some point we may have a cost effective and energy efficient way of recycling lithium at large scale, but we are not even close to that. Battery technology in general has a long way to go.
Last edited by superswiss; 04-12-2024 at 07:18 PM.
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AppleFan1 (04-12-2024)
#12
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There's only one problem with that. Current lithium recycling methods require temperatures in excess of 1000C or corrosive chemicals and therefore use up to 45% more energy and produce up to 20% more emissions than mining fresh lithium. Recycling aluminum on the other hand uses 95% less energy than making new aluminum. Lithium is nothing like aluminum. Supposedly, German researchers have found a more efficient method, but it's only been demonstrated at lab scale. This is why currently less than 10% of lithium batteries are getting recycled. The vast majority ends up in landfills. At some point we may have a cost effective and energy efficient way of recycling lithium at large scale, but we are not even close to that. Battery technology in general has a long way to go.
Last edited by c4004matic; 04-12-2024 at 08:13 PM.
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#14
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Note the caveat... in ten years. Yet already a US company has a chemical method of separation that is energy neutral already at small scale, ergo all that is required is ramping it up. Basicly you mulch the battery and use and eletroplating process to remove the metals. In ten years it should be more than ready.
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FWIW, MB gives us 10 years/155,000 warranty on our batteries. For those of us owning and keeping our cars a long time, this neutralizes most owners' concerns regarding fear of the unknown. My EQB gives only 8 years/100,000 miles, and I plan to exit that right before I hit the 8 year mark. What will the range be at 9.5 years old with maybe 125,000 miles? If Tesla is any guide, probably 90%, which would be just fine for my purposes. If it gets below 80%, it becomes MB problem, and the car would get a new battery. But yes, those expressing concern about how to keep this software heavy car working at ten years...dealerships are going to have to become very good at software engineering. However, this also applies to ICE cars that are stuffed full of computers. I think that in year 2045, we will no longer see model year, say 2023, on the road anymore except for some very special cars. Unless something changes to make keeping old electronics working well, the useful life of cars will see a decrease compared to past decades. All of this stuff with electronics, rapidly changing battery technology....we are in frontier land of a disruptive technology that will change how we drive and how we power our driving. There's just going to be uncertainty for us all as this gets sorted out in the coming years. My only firm advice....don't buy a Fisker Ocean
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#16
Our mindset, from the computer industry, is devices need to be kept updated primarily for security reasons. With a car the pressure to require software upgrades should not be as strong as the computer industry. Hopefully security concerns are not just around the corner. This should mean that updates would not be required once stability has been established. An upgrade risks the stability of the interactions between the over 100 control units. Maybe I am dreaming.
As an example, my car has been working fine for the last 6 months after updates were applied from issues during the first three.
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ScottC2 (04-13-2024)
#17
Study past histories, and you can get a glimpse of future road maps. Software engineer changes on a dime. Mechanical engineering changes a bit slower. Chemical engineering, when applied, changes even slower. We have only a finite number of elements on Earth to play with. Even more so, the availability of them is another challenge. From this 5000 feet view, you can extrapolate that while software will get updates frequently, it is limited by mechanical engineering (chips, boards, sensors). Furthermore, since chemical engineering is the one that changes the slowest(from inception to application), you can rest assure that, in general, you will still see a lot of Lithium based batteries in the next ten years. Additionally, as the technology matures, the cost of production becomes cheaper.
EV is experiencing a COVID-like years right now. Everyone and their relatives are freaking out about cost depreciation, useful life, environment, you name it because it is new (to the public). Fears spread faster than joy. But history will tell you that those taking risks will inevitably reap the rewards. Are you young enough to take the risk, or is your retirement money needing to be spent carefully to ensure you last until the end?
In any case, I have confidence, based on what I have read from the chemical experts of lithium based batteries, that my car's range will not deteriorate to 80% past the 10 year mark. Are there risks and outliers? Of course. If you choose and are knowledgeable about leasing, then mitigate your risk by leasing. As for me, I bought it at good price. I plan to enjoy it. And if something happens, move on to the next big thing.
EV is experiencing a COVID-like years right now. Everyone and their relatives are freaking out about cost depreciation, useful life, environment, you name it because it is new (to the public). Fears spread faster than joy. But history will tell you that those taking risks will inevitably reap the rewards. Are you young enough to take the risk, or is your retirement money needing to be spent carefully to ensure you last until the end?
In any case, I have confidence, based on what I have read from the chemical experts of lithium based batteries, that my car's range will not deteriorate to 80% past the 10 year mark. Are there risks and outliers? Of course. If you choose and are knowledgeable about leasing, then mitigate your risk by leasing. As for me, I bought it at good price. I plan to enjoy it. And if something happens, move on to the next big thing.
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The criticality of software engineering versus mechanical engineering is unclear, but the balance between the two will naturally shift.
Our mindset, from the computer industry, is devices need to be kept updated primarily for security reasons. With a car the pressure to require software upgrades should not be as strong as the computer industry. Hopefully security concerns are not just around the corner. This should mean that updates would not be required once stability has been established. An upgrade risks the stability of the interactions between the over 100 control units. Maybe I am dreaming.
As an example, my car has been working fine for the last 6 months after updates were applied from issues during the first three.
Our mindset, from the computer industry, is devices need to be kept updated primarily for security reasons. With a car the pressure to require software upgrades should not be as strong as the computer industry. Hopefully security concerns are not just around the corner. This should mean that updates would not be required once stability has been established. An upgrade risks the stability of the interactions between the over 100 control units. Maybe I am dreaming.
As an example, my car has been working fine for the last 6 months after updates were applied from issues during the first three.
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ScottC2 (04-15-2024)
#19
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Ten years is the practical life of a well designed and built ICE automobile. If nothing else, the simple mechanical wear on the engine will be the limiting factor - over ten years you can expect the engine to rotate about 500 million to 1 billion times (about 5,000 - 10,000 hours of operation). Lower quality automobiles will have failures sooner, as will vehicles that did not receive scheduled maintenance. With newer vehicles, there are far more electronic packages as well as a lot more mechanical components for the assist systems. Keep in mind as well that the EQ platform is a completely new platform for Mercedes, so there is no benchmark for how these platforms will last and where the problems are. Mercedes considers these an experiment, and in a few years will be doing a new design based on their experience with these platforms.
On top of this, battery design is receiving huge investments and we are starting to see that there are several new battery technologies that will change the way batteries are designed. For example, the EQ platform uses a 400V design, but new designs are using 800V or more. We can expect that chemistries will change, but in the near term we will see much more support for things like battery recycling. If nothing else, I expect a pick and pull type of availability for these components just as one can get a transmission or engine from a wreck today. We will also see more third party repair shops. My current mechanic does not work on electric vehicles or hybrids as his current business just does not see that many inquires about these cars. However, that will change as the fleet changes to EVs.
On top of this, battery design is receiving huge investments and we are starting to see that there are several new battery technologies that will change the way batteries are designed. For example, the EQ platform uses a 400V design, but new designs are using 800V or more. We can expect that chemistries will change, but in the near term we will see much more support for things like battery recycling. If nothing else, I expect a pick and pull type of availability for these components just as one can get a transmission or engine from a wreck today. We will also see more third party repair shops. My current mechanic does not work on electric vehicles or hybrids as his current business just does not see that many inquires about these cars. However, that will change as the fleet changes to EVs.
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ScottC2 (04-15-2024)
#20
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Ten years is the practical life of a well designed and built ICE automobile. If nothing else, the simple mechanical wear on the engine will be the limiting factor - over ten years you can expect the engine to rotate about 500 million to 1 billion times (about 5,000 - 10,000 hours of operation). Lower quality automobiles will have failures sooner, as will vehicles that did not receive scheduled maintenance. With newer vehicles, there are far more electronic packages as well as a lot more mechanical components for the assist systems. Keep in mind as well that the EQ platform is a completely new platform for Mercedes, so there is no benchmark for how these platforms will last and where the problems are. Mercedes considers these an experiment, and in a few years will be doing a new design based on their experience with these platforms.
On top of this, battery design is receiving huge investments and we are starting to see that there are several new battery technologies that will change the way batteries are designed. For example, the EQ platform uses a 400V design, but new designs are using 800V or more. We can expect that chemistries will change, but in the near term we will see much more support for things like battery recycling. If nothing else, I expect a pick and pull type of availability for these components just as one can get a transmission or engine from a wreck today. We will also see more third party repair shops. My current mechanic does not work on electric vehicles or hybrids as his current business just does not see that many inquires about these cars. However, that will change as the fleet changes to EVs.
On top of this, battery design is receiving huge investments and we are starting to see that there are several new battery technologies that will change the way batteries are designed. For example, the EQ platform uses a 400V design, but new designs are using 800V or more. We can expect that chemistries will change, but in the near term we will see much more support for things like battery recycling. If nothing else, I expect a pick and pull type of availability for these components just as one can get a transmission or engine from a wreck today. We will also see more third party repair shops. My current mechanic does not work on electric vehicles or hybrids as his current business just does not see that many inquires about these cars. However, that will change as the fleet changes to EVs.
#21
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I would not buy any EV, these are lease only IMO.
#22
Junior Member
I think buying a used EV is ok as well, provided that it has dropped a substantial amount from new.
Looking at China, these batteries are currently the best:
Semi-solid state used in IM Motors L6
Semi-solid state used in Nio ET7
Shenxing battery (LFP) from CATL
Golden Battery (LFP) used in Zeekr 007
Looking at China, these batteries are currently the best:
Semi-solid state used in IM Motors L6
Semi-solid state used in Nio ET7
Shenxing battery (LFP) from CATL
Golden Battery (LFP) used in Zeekr 007
#23
Super Member
Remember the old, weird looking original Honda EV? Definitely more than 10 years old. We have several still running around in San Antonio, which I see from time to time. Who knows how long a well maintained battery will last. I love my EQS.
#25
Like deer, our basic instincts wants us to focus on what is the most expensive components and stare at it. I bet a six pack of Heineken that in ten to fifteen years, the only component your EV is worth is the battery pack. Everything else is either outdated, not supported, or broken down due to the elements.
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