Untertürkheim

I thought this forum would be a particularly good place to post this question, since it applies to all models, and the sponsor. I have seen Royal Purple discussed in several sub-forums, and the claims on their website, but no explanation for the following:

Why does Royal Purple not have Mercedes-Benz approval / specification rating (I have not been able to find other manufacturer ratings either, but MB is the only one that matters to me personally)?

Considering all of the positive things I have been hearing, I would like to use it, but besides voiding the warranty in some of my cars, I am hesitant to use it in the rest (all MB-varying ages) because I cannot explain the lack of manufacturer certification. It seems to me that if any business could expand the market for their product, they would. Logically then, one has to assume that the oils could not meet the requirements.

I have read many other posts about the product, and I am not looking for more testimonials. Ideally, a direct response from RP would be the best, or someone with real information about my question.

RichardM98

I went to the RP website just now and read one of the 'tests'. These are not scientifically robust tests but rather before/after comparisons. When it comes to collecting scientific data which you plan to use to support a hypothesis, you need to allow for systematic error. For example in the first test for fuel economy (the one I read) they drove a Ford F350 in a circle (track) for a few miles, then changed to synthetic oil and gear lube and repeated the test. What about ambient temp., relative humidity, and track surface temp.? I doubt they were the same. The results were a 10% increase. However, if they had conducted the first test, say, three times in a row they may have found that the range of the three values (with reg. oil) was +10% to -10%. If that were true then the results they got were statistically meaningless. But when companies are promoting a product for profit (or a magazine who derives revenue from advertising), they take a 'good' value and run with it. The best results would be obtained by a third party testing laboratory with a proper protocol and double-blind conditions.

Also, what was in the crankcase in the before test? Was it Mobil 1 0W-40 or something you or I would never use?

I'm sure MB certification requires testing and the submission of data to support the claims. This is costly and time consuming and usually only the big oil companies (ie Castrol, Mobil, etc.) do the work.

Just my $0.02.

Untertürkheim

Part 1, we are following the same lines of thought here, so I am hoping a RP representative, as the sponsor of this forum, will opine.

Part 2, from what I know, there is no data submission on the part of the oil company. MB runs various tests on the oil to determine qualification for service specification. I do not know if there are any costs for the oil company to bear, probably a requirement to supply product and possibly pay for a certain amount of testing. Nonetheless, it seems any rational company would pay for this certification to gain access to a huge market, and many smaller oil companies have gone through this certification process.

RichardM98

That has not been case for the industries I've been involved with. How do you know this? MB may conduct validation testing for compliance but that's usually just a spot check from time to time. There has been a strong movement since the 80's in all industries to shift as much cost as possible to vendors. It's most notable in government where when something goes wrong it's the little 3rd level vendor/subcontractor who is called out.

BTW, I hope I didn't give the impression that I think a product like Royal Purple, Amsoil, etc. is not a quality product. I suspect that they will provide excellent lubrication. I'm just skeptical of claims of signicant increases in horsepower, gas mileage, etc. It reminds me of the 100mpg carburetors that use to show up every few years. Of course, EFI solved that one.

whoover

I think you're looking at this backwards. OEM oil specifications today are so specialized, in terms of extended drain, High Temperature High Shear results, low ash, etc., that there is no chance an oil will meet the spec sheet unless it's formulated specifically for that spec. That's the real expense, not only to the oil manufacturer but to the OEM. It would be a major cooperative project for both R&D organizations to produce an oil to meet 229.51, for instance, and MB must pick a limited number of partners to work with. Royal Purple may be a great product but unless they work closely with MB on meeting the spec, they won't. That could mean the oil is fine so long as you change it more often than the book says, or don't use it in a urea-tank diesel, or don't use it in an AMG, or don't use it in very cold or very hot climates or ... The chances are that it won't meet some parameter that MB engineering considers important.

Musikmann

Excellent write up Richard and I agree 100%. Unfortunately, almost everything boils down to economics.

lkchris

The explanation is that the oil manufacturer must submit and pay for testing to prove it meets Mercedes specs and then submit the results to Mercedes.

Apparently RP doesn't care to.

whoover

I don't buy that. If Royal Purple had managed to formulate an oil, on their own, that they can show meets 229.5, and MB refuses to certify it or charges unreasonable fees to certify it then Royal Purple has a clear case of restraint of trade against MB. MB cannot certify one vendor as meeting its standards and not certify a competing vendor, assuming it meets those standards, because that puts an unfair restraint on the second vendor.

It is much more likely that Royal Purple cannot meet 229.5 without MB assistance, which would require an investment on the part of both parties. The cost is in meeting the standard, not getting it certified.

alpinweiss

I don't quite follow your logic here. What would be Daimler Benz's motivation for testing or funding testing of Royal Purple products? They do not use RP as a factory lubricant.

Typically a vendor submits a product to an independent testing laboratory. The laboratory then certifies (or not) the product as meeting the auto manufacturer's standard (e.g. MB229.5). Yes, this is an expensive process.

The lubricant company (e.g. RP) would then submit the testing results to the automobile manufacturer (e.g. MB), which would review the results, and in turn add it to the recommended list. The lubricant company could then claim compliance with the manufacturer's standard.

whoover

My logic is simple. The reason that Royal Purple has not submitted a product for 229.5 certification is that they don't have a product that would pass.

The OEM standard comprises a great many variables, and would require research and development on the part of Royal Purple, in conjuction with Mercedes, which Royal Purple has decided not to do. That is their business decision, and is probably sound. But it's not MB refusing to certify an oil as meeting 229.5; it's Royal Purple not spending the money to develop one.

Untertürkheim

This is what I had assumed, although I was hoping to get more information from someone from Royal Purple.

What I do not understand is why RP would sponsor a forum for a auto manufacturer for which they do not have a single approval.