StevethePilot

Okay, there's an honest answer. I love my Mercedes. I also think if you're going to pay that much more, it should be that much better. But rather than blame Consumer Reports for reporting the facts, why not admit we don't care if it's a little unreliable, as long as it provides more Zen than an Infinity? I mean really, to complain that Consumer Reports recommends a car as long as it's reliable is the most illogical thought process I've ever heard. I suppose they should recommend the unreliable ones? It's not "Mercedes Benz Weekly" (and whatever did happen to the MB Owners' magazine?), it's CONSUMER Reports. For people who want the maximum value for the dollar.

What I'd hoped to discuss, instead of killing the messenger, was not what we expect out of consumer-based magazines but what we expect out of our car(s). If I were to go out and buy another antique Caddy, I certainly wouldn't complain that the lifters had gone bad or the air ride from 1958 had disintegrated, or that there was too much play in the steering. I'd say, "Hey, it's a 1958 Cadillac, what're we complaining about?" So if I can possibly distill something out of this vitriol for a magazine that dares print facts, it's that it is okay that it breaks down a bit, that it's really not made much better than many other cars, but damnit it is a Mercedes.

Right?

AsianML

Wait, they recommended the E66 7-Series?

Stoneseller

Wahington Post staff writer Warren Brown did not give a very glowing review in today's paper:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...022801562.html

Germancar1

Yes the car that they said was awful and so unreliable just a few years ago! They still think it doesn't make a good "luxury car", but yet they recommend it, though the prize the Lexus LS and MB S-Class more, but of course they only recommend the LS.

M

MKW

If it makes you feel better , Steve, go spend an afternoon reading through some BMW X5 boards. Guys there feel so lucky if they have a 1 month old one that hasn't had to go back for a service issue ! Reliability was supposed to be improved with the Mk 2 version that came out 16 months ago , but ....
now they are waiting for the twin turbo 550 hp next gen X-drive version coming soon - who wants to step up to the plate to be the beta tester on one of those babies ?

kainep

reliability expectations come from personal experience imo. I bought a RRS two years ago expecting to visit the dealer a lot due to LandRover's historically unreliability - however I never had one quality problem - it was a perfect car

My expectation of Mercedes is 'better' quality then LR, however like every big purchase in life you should research it first, hence the benefits of these forums - know what you getting into from the start, make sure you get written confirmation from the dealer on how they manage any warranty problems (level of loan car etc) before placing the order and then you cant really go wrong.

StevethePilot

This isn't about making me feel better because of someone else's choices, it's about my own. I didn't buy a BMW, I bought a Mercedes. The fact is I bought one because it was the only diesel SUV that I could foresee myself enjoying. The other options? Touareg, no. Why bother with a V10 that's made by one of the least reliable folks? Plus it's really more of a tall station wagon than an SUV. ML? Same size problem. R? I wasn't personally impressed with it and it cannot tow anything. Not an SUV at all. That left a used Excursion or a Ford E-Van diesel. Oh, or the Sprinter. I could've gotten one of those tricked out beyond belief with a luxury interior, cargo space and towing abilities. I might still do that, but the top price tag for that was huge and I couldn't have parked it in my garage.

All I am saying is, I love my Mercedes because it's a Mercedes. I hate my Mercedes because it's not the same one I drove 20 years ago, not as reliable, not the leader in technology and abundance, not so well thought out and executed there is no equal. It's a damned shame.

kainep

Steve,

Do you feel this across the whole MB range, or just the GL specifically?

Cheers

Kaine

StevethePilot

Reliability issues? My recent experience is only with the GL320, so I honestly cannot comment on it for the range. But as I said in my PM to you, the person who should be most affected by it is the one who was stranded by the beast, my wife. Today again she stole the GL to go to the dog show, because she likes it better than her Lexus which is so reliable. So none of you have wasted breath on me, I agree that it's a Mercedes, when all's said, and that's one of the biggest reasons to get one. Hell, I'd get a second one if I thought I could afford it right now. Maybe in a few years!

And why do I think CR has it listed as lower? I think reliability expectations are higher amongst those who are willing to take the plunge here, where you don't find Mercedes as taxicabs (like they do in the UK), they're not as common and cost more than the average car. So yeah, they're more likely to complain. It's not because they're a commie liberal leftist rag, though certain lovers of the red grape juice would have one think so. <Ducking>

STP

kainep

its a valid point - you'll find a lot more LR owners in the UK that just accept knocks and creaks as "its a LR and its supposed to make noises" - however any other make and its a major problem

Like I said, personally I do expect more from MB than I did from LR though

Lets wait and see

jongaines

The topic seems to be way too "controversial" to leave a comment, but not the "Don't Tase Me Bro"-absolutely priceless!

StevethePilot

I truly hope nobody's taking this too seriously. I'm looking at a couple of my posts and realizing I might be having PMS (Pissed at Mercedes Syndrome) so if I've over-stepped I apologize. I think it's a bit like a romantic relationship. You adore it, you enjoy it, and it pisses you off to no end.

I thought a little levity might help keep me from getting shot!

STP

dunderhi

Steve, I thought you were the messenger, but I guess it's CR. If we can't question CR, what's the point of this thread. Are we all just supposed to agree that our cars are unreliable? Seem's kind of boring. To answer your question, what I want from my cars: Performance, Comfort, Luxury, and Style - in that order.

I bought my two MB's last year without any undue concern about their reliability, because statistically, it's not really much of a problem anymore. The range from red to black spans <2% in many cases. Yes cars do breakdown, but its a rare occurance nowadays. Repeated coolant hose failures is a real problem, but a power lift gate that needs adjustment is not a reasonable cause to declare a vehicle unreliable. Personally, I have two unreliable Benz's (according to CR), but they have both started everytime, and got me where I needed to go everytime without any problems or warning lights. Am I worried about either breaking down? No more than any other car I have driven in the past ten years. I've owned unreliable Toyota's and reliable Dodge's, but my data isn't significantly relevant.

Let's look at some statisically relevant numbers from JD Powers (2006 report) and correlate them to CR's circle scale. Lexus (91 problems/100 vehicles) would be a solid red circle. Cheverolet (124/100) would be a clear circle. Mercedes (139/100) as we all know is a solid black circle. JD hasn't shared their 2007 numbers, but they reported that MB has three class leaders: S, E, & SL. According to JD, the GL is at the bottom of its class, so they agree with CR, but neither company has shared real numbers. Are we talking about 0.9 vs 1.4 or 0.9 vs. 10? We really don't know and I don't think CR wants us to know either. It's hard to sell subscriptions if the impact of their analysis isn't important.

Some anti-CR reading material:
http://www.allpar.com/cr.html
http://www.truedelta.com/pieces/newdots.php

dunderhi

Okay, I won't now.

oknish

Great, just as I was almost ready to get serious......

I am not sure what to make of the CR report. I mean how do they define reliability? I put more trust in mkaresh's research (http://www.truedelat.com) since he collects data points from owners and calculates reliability based on that. Does anyone even know where CR's data comes from?

To my personal experience, this is my first MB and really "reliability" was not a big factor in our decision. We found a car that met our requirements and that was it. It's a pleasure to drive and safe. It does have some issues at times but nothing that would turn me off the car or MB. Granted, I haven't had those issues like no power in the middle of a freeway which could change an owner's opinion in a heartbeat.

oknish

You read my mind, dunderhi. Red and black circles that are empty, half full or full sure are pretty but they don't convey data worth a dime. This is a case where Edward Tufte would lecture CR folks on why it doesn't make sense to use pictures when words are better

emayer

Does anyone even know where CR's data comes from?

I believe CR's data comes from subscriber responses regarding ownership experience. While the thought of presenting "unbiased" data without advertising influence is a conceptually noble idea, one cannot be certain that the average CR subscriber is in fact reflective of the MB (or any other brand) owner at large. I say this merely to point out that there can be pitfalls in respect to statistical accuracy.

As for the notion that more expensive cars ought to be more reliable- (as an extreme example) anyone own a Ferrari? We buy cars such as these for their performance, enjoyability etc. despite costs of ownership. Like the Ferrari example, one could easily make an arguement that due to vehicle engineering complexities, materials etc. the more expensive (therefore more technologically loaded) a car is the more likely one will encounter reliability issues. I agree that the statistical variances in these problems amongst all manufacturers has narrowed considerably over the years making realistic interpretations of all this even more difficult.

With all that said, I feel lucky that after 6 MB vehicles I have never encountered any serious issues...

StevethePilot

So what you're saying is there are "lies," "damned lies," and "statistics?"

Despite this supposedly worse-than-average reliability in CR's opinion (and yes it is an opinion), the Mercedes is hardly hurting for business. Sure, there are models that don't sell as well (see the "R," whose styling and functionality seem somewhat outside the realm of most US Mercedes buyers) but all in all people aren't looking at it like they're dropping a wad on a piece of junk, so surely there has to be something to it. After all, if all I was looking for was reliability, I'd have gotten ... I dunno ... some soul-less Japanese thing.

STP

StevethePilot

Hey, I'm a married man, darn it! (Wait, so are you!)

The same place as TrueDelta's info - from drivers and owners. Unfortunately, just as CR's info has to come from subscribers, TrueDelta's has to come from people who are on the Internet, care enough about their cars to join a group like this, and then actually keep up with the data. I think the only way to truly determine a particular model's reliability (and it can vary widely amongst lines) is if every dealership and auto shop were to open up their books and tell someone what they've fixed on each model for each year. Ain't happenin'.

STP

StevethePilot

Hey, I didn't write the article, just transcribed it! And the reason I'm not asking to question CR is because then you have to question CR, question JD Power, question TrueDelta - there's too many to mention. One guy gives it a glowing review, another doesn't, which one is right and why will always be up for grabs. How about this; based on what I've read here and encountered myself, the truck's more unreliable than any vehicle I've ever owned. That said, I usually own pretty reliable vehicles for some reason, and I have had vehicles from the same manufacturer that friends and/or family have owned that have been complete lemons. But if it's so boring ... why comment?

emayer

I actually don't feel that CR has a hidden "agenda" only that the data presented within is a function of its subscribing population which may or may not have an axe to grind. It is anyone's guess as to whether responding individuals demographics truly reflect the overall owner population. For these reasons you are absolutely correct: statistics can lie...

As for the R class- Well, wasn't this car specifically designed for the American population as a performance alternative to the minivan? Should have gotten CR's opinion first....

StevethePilot

Was it? 'Cause it didn't impress this American. In fact the only thing I really liked about the R-class was its 1% financing offer. I don't know that much about the model, really. I know a lot more about the GL because that's the one that rocks me.

STP

lkchris

They lose credibility with me by complaining about brake pad dust.

JDT1

I agree that if you're going to pay that much more, it should be that much better. As far as the '58 Caddy goes, it is illogical (oh my, I sound like Spock) to compare the troubles of a 50 year old car to that of our GL's .

JimBarnhart

I love my GL, and loved my ML before it, but I feel there is a significantly measurable percentage of the cost of the vehicle is just because it's a Mercedes. Pull the peace symbol off the front and it won't turn as many heads. I think the same thing could be said for a designer gown you would see on the red carpet - the name on the label comes with a price, and just maybe the price paid doesn't correlate 1/1 with increased value.

I'm writing this note with a shirt that has a little horsey on the left breast, I'm sure I paid more for it (actually the Mrs's since she is my wardrobe agent) than a comparable shirt at JC Penney, and I'm not sure the quality is better.

As for relability, I agree it should be better, maybe even perfect, but I don't feel that's what MB is focused on - they are focused on brand image, style, features, functions.

If you look at Dodge while it was owned by Daimler, I think you can see the culture from MB flowing into their products. They introduced a lot of new styles (PT cruiser, 300, charger, etc) aimed as attracting buyers to style, features, functions. To handle quality they give a lifetime power train warranty as 'protection'.