hubert

Do not pay those thiefs a penny out of your pocket!!!! Fight it and you will win!!! Comon sence we all pump diesel gas at different gas stations everyday and if all of us got a 15 grand bill for doing it than im sorry they would not sell another car to anybody. I think they are trying to rip you off. Call mbusa and speak to supervisors somebody higher than the person that picks up the phone there...

JenB

Yes, this whole situation has now gotten so outlandish that it just defies common sense. Perhaps the "positive" side of such a massive estimate is that it just begs for more detail, information, and explanation from both the dealer and MB USA.

dgiturbo, appreciate your thoughts. I agree with your questions - I'm not a mechanic, but something here just doesn't add up (besides the estimate, that is!).

FWIW, estimate breaks down to $12,701.85 parts (the list is 2 pages long) + $1,583.50 labor + $1,206.68 tax.

And again, for dramatic effect, this is a 2010 bought 8 months ago new. Warranty coverage denied based on "poor fuel quality" exclusion.

To be continued....

ddruker

Which Bay Area dealer is doing this to you?

I think you are real close to attorney time. I do like the idea of seeing if your insurance company can help. In addition to calling Mercedes USA customer service, I would also directly call the office of the president of MBUSA - they have people who can deal with crazy issues like this whereas you may not get a speedy response through the normal customer support channels .

hubert

Poor fuel quality??? how do mercedes define that??? With regular fuel you got 3 options from regular to super, thers only one diesel. If thats an issue i think mercedes should open up their own gas diesel station and than they could say something if you did not get gas from a mercedes station otherwise thers milions of gas stations and we being a normal humans can pump at anyone of them how the hell we suposet to know what perticual gas station puts in their fuel/diesel tanks... anyway to me this smells fishy dont pay anything to them fight till the end... thers no way it did so much damage in 8 months, plus you said your self you pumped your diesel at differen stations so thers no way all of them had bad diesel...

JenB

Car is at RAB Motors in Marin. I've gotten the sense that Mercedes corporate is driving this, though. I believe the dealer has been talking with MBUSA, and it's they who advised RAB to go through the whole system looking for corrosion caused by water (which also suggests that this is not a singular problem but one that has been seen before).

Perhaps if enough people call their dealer and/or MB USA and tell them they are afraid to fill their tanks for fear of incurring $15K of damage, this will get some attention.

I am hopeful that some backup from my insurance company will be helpful. And of course an attorney is on the list.

I have no drivable car, this is a complete time suck already and I suspect there is much more to come. And that doesn't even count the $15K!!

Pretty damn shameful the way this is unfolding.

43221B

According to the parts catalogue, there is a water sensor in the fuel induction system that is specific to the 350/320. It is about $100 for the part. I would find out why it was not working and why you are being held responsible for the damage that has resulted from it not working.

StevethePilot

Sorry, wait - I may have misunderstood here but you're saying filling up from the correct pump with what is supposed to be the correct fuel and otherwise treating your diesel fuel system in a normal manner which a reasonable person would be expected to do (I don't see Mercedes offering special "how to own a diesel from us" classes?) should be warranted by the manufacturer of the vehicle in the same manner as recklessly putting what is clearly the wrong fuel from the wrong pump into the system? You keep saying the truck doesn't have a design flaw - that may be true but has yet to be shown. But what if the truck has a manufacturing flaw?

Honestly, water in a fuel system is nearly impossible to prevent. The stuff literally falls from the skies and can get into the fuel delivery systems of the most ardent and cautious fueling stations. We as consumers expect they will do what they can to prevent and remove this water, but even then there can and will be some left in. Which is why systems are normally put in place to seperate the water in the fuel delivery and in the vehicles themselves. So let's say said vehicle has a system in place to remove the water from the fuel before sending it to the engine. If water gets through the entire fuel system, without any warnings from the many computers installed, there are only two possible causes: a design flaw, or a manufacturing flaw.

If there is a design flaw, a system is not properly designed to remove the fuel and most locals here in the U.S. have laws which hold the manufacturer liable for damages which occur from that. On the other hand, if there is a manufacturing flaw, the system was designed well but for some reason - different suppliers, faulty or worn equipment, worker error, something - that product is different from the other products produced by that manufacturer. Most locals here in the U.S. have laws which hold the manufacturer liable for damages which occur from that as well. In either case, the products are considered defective, under the theory of products liability.

Now I'm no lawyer and I certainly have no idea how this specific situation's facts would apply to whatever laws from whatever state or local this person is in, but that's generally the theory of products liability in most of the U.S. If it were me, I would consult with a products liability attorney before moving forward.

Steve (the Pilot, not the Lawyer)

aeggroup

I just bought my GL350 2 weeks ago and reading this thread - I'm kind of scared of potential problem I may have and the bill, which is beyond any reasonable explanation. I will write the letter to MBUSA asking them how to protect my car from such problems. It will be very interesting to see the answer.
I had similar situation with my 2007 E-class, but it was gasoline version. When they saw CEL on...after 3 days they said engine must be changed. It was leased car and I did not care. It did not cost me a penny....they even gave me back $1500 for inconvenience not driving my car for almost 2 months.
Have you tried another dealer ? Are you sure the one you talking with not trying to rip you off ? It looks and sounds like that...

Good Luck.

JenB

Yes, StevethePilot, I am thinking along exactly the same lines. And thank you for laying the logic out so crisply.

On a slight tangent, this whole situation really does make me grateful for public message boards like this one. Not only do I get to benefit from others' experience and insight, but it will allow for tracking of any similar situations and may help with discovery if there is a design flaw. Or if it turns out it's a manufacturing flaw on my car, it still may not be an isolated incident and someone else may benefit from seeing how this all plays out.

In a way I hope it's a manufacturing flaw, just so others with the same car (and me too going forward once this is fixed) can breathe a little easier at the pump.

Re: the dealer I'm at. I'm not quite ready to pin this on them. They've been responsive and competent before with a tricky-to-diagnose but easy-to-finally-repair suspension bearing defect which came up shortly after I bought the car (it was covered under warranty with no issue). And sadly the SF dealership is barely competent (I went to them originally for this CEL as it is much more convenient, and they just told me the computer didn't tell them enough to know what to do. Said CEL might happen again, and if the computer code then gave them more detail they could try a fix then). We had a 2001 E and had plenty of first-hand experience back then about the limitations of the SF dealer. Nothing has changed.... I do have a terrific independent mechanic, but since I'm of the belief that this really should be something for Mercedes to cover, I can't take it to him. So I'm kind of stuck at RAB for now.

The crazy thing is I really, really like this car (as it seems most of you do as well). When it runs, that is. And we liked our E-class, minus the dealer service experience. So we are definitely potential repeat Mercedes buyers. But this situation is seriously jeopardizing that going forward. I am really hoping that MBUSA will step in and do the right thing here. Not only for me but for the peace of mind of everyone reading this!

alx

oh, i agree with you. but my experience tells me the consumer in this case will get stuck with the bill unless there are other things at play.

let me give you another example (this is a real one). the gas station misplaces the label on the diesel pump. the consumer pumps 2 gallons of "diesel" while in reality it is gas. the gas station attendant realizes his mistake and moves the sign properly 15 minutes later. the consumer runs on the diesel/gas mix for a few miles (uses it all up and damages the fuel system) and then refuels with diesel the next day. truck dies and it costs $10k to fix. who do you think picked the bill? (hint: it was not the dealer and not the gas station).

the buck in such cases stops at whoever cannot prove responsibility further down the line. mercedes is in the clear and the consumer in this case cannot prove that she pumped bad diesel. it does not look good for her.

i hope she reaches some kind of a deal and does not have to pay all that money. i for one if i was her i would be livid as she prolly did nothing wrong. if mb is non-responsive and does not offer some kind of suitable resolution i would be looking for an atty.

NevadaNick

You need to let MB know about the first dealer and that the damage could have occured after taking it there as you were prudent in getting it in right away.

43221B

Agree 100%. To me, the bottom line here is that you have a fuel filter with a water sensor attached to it that for whatever reason didn't do its job. The water sensor is supposed to detect when there is too much water (because there almost always will be some) in the fuel filter and there is actually a reservoir in most fuel filters to hold the captured water until the filter is changed. Unless you drove around for weeks or months with the CEL light on before ever taking it in to be diagnosed, I can't see how you should be liable for anything more than the cost of having the fuel system flushed.

B200Turbo

The question really is do all the components have to be replaced?
How long was the water present in the system.
Sadly this can happen to anybody you just have to be careful where you take fuel.
We used to have own a dealership in Europe so I know what I am talking about.
If the injectors and pump were exposed to the water for a long time than there is a serious problem due to high pressure but really cannot believe that all components would be damaged.

There is to many unknown was it really just water or some other particles in water that caused the damage.
Definitely get all the used parts back , get the whatever fuel is left in the tank, fuel filter and really good company to check what really was inside your tank.
Sadly bad fuel is never under warranty from any manufacturer.

Fourdiesel

VERY Interesting that you have a trusted independent mechanic. It gives you another option should it end up that you have to foot the bill. Is it possible for your indy to bid on the repair. It is obvious that he will have to buy parts from M-B, but if he has the skills and most of the tools, he can probably do the work MUCH cheaper. He still may have to make use of the M-B computer to set the engine back up after the repair though. Have a conversation with him and ask for his recommendations.

dgiturbo

EVERY issue I have seen or heard of involving water in diesel fuel results in the vehicle shutting off soon after the driver filled up, the vehicle being towed to a dealer, the dealer draining the water and refilling the tank and the customer then drive away.
The difference here is your vehicle STILL DROVE to a further away dealer, in limp home mode. If there was that much water to "corrode" and destroy the entire fuel system, how does the engine still run??? Either you have found a way to run a CDI/Bluetec on water or something else is wrong. The only time mine has ever gone into limp home was from a bad fuel pressure sensor, replaced under warranty.
I suspect it's time you have an attorney with automobile product liability/merchantability experience give MBUSA a call.
And if you can actually run the vehicle on water please give ME a call.

Max Blast

Agree with most of what's said here...RAB has no idea what causes this damage and are trying the easy out - blaming the consumer and poor fuel choices.
I'd be livid if they tried blaming this on me. Kudos for keeping your cool in all of this nonsense. If MB won't do right by you, get a lawyer and take them to court for what you owe on the car.
Back to another posters comment, but what if there was a possibility that one of the diesel pumps contained biodiesel vice the advertised diesel? The car would run but eat it's fuel system in the process.

NevadaNick

B5 is allowed by MB and i'm sure there are a number of people running higher blends. In the pickup world there are plenty of em running B99 without issue. If the dlr was blaming fuel i would make them prove the fuel is bad.

JenB

Update: went to the dealer yesterday as I needed to return the loaner car. And also wanted to show up in person - took my brother who is more versed in cars, as well as chemistry, physics and engineering.

The situation as it stands (according to the service manager and service advisor) is that they have not taken apart the whole system. But since they found rust in the tank (couldn't explain rust in a plastic tank) and rust at the other end of the fuel system, they are assuming there is rust everywhere in between.

Again I asked my questions about how much water and how long (and how come they didn't answer those in my email several days prior!). I also asked about the fuel pump and the water extractor and have they looked to that part in particular for failure. Making the point, and as many have here, how do you go from a fill-up at the station to massive, $15K damage with no warning?

The reality is that I don't they have any of these answers (why can't people just straight up say they don't know or don't have an answer yet but they will get to it? It's like parting the seas of evasion and platitudes first! And why did I have to go in person to even get an "I don't know" instead of them just replying to my email!!) In hindsight I should have asked to talk with the shop foreman, but I didn't think of it until after we were gone.

Anyway, they've also put things on hold waiting for my insurance inspector to come (the right decision). So that is the next step (and also why I'll hold off on getting a lawyer for now).

The good news is they have not gotten rid of any parts or drained the fuel tank, so they'll be sending in a fuel sample for testing. I suspect this will go on for some time, and will update everyone as we go.

LEOSOPHIE

The rust could have been pumped into your tank when you filled up.

StevethePilot

As with all legal situations, the facts dictate the case. What you are suggesting is something outside the ordinary happens which causes damage to a system, and I'll give you another real-world case. Someone fills up at a station on the freeway which is pumping either non-USLD or BIO100. The person then drives a short distance down the road before a warning light comes on and the truck goes into limp mode. After re-starting the truck, it comes out of limp mode but the CEL stays on. On returning to the dealer, who pays to clean the system? Considering it was my wife who was driving and the difficulty of determining which fill-up it was that put the "bad" fuel in (or honestly was it even a bad sensor)? I did.

What you are suggesting is an out of the ordinary situation. What I suggest is a fault in design or manufacture of a system intended to deal with day-to-day, normal situations an average and reasonable person would expect to encounter. And there's still the confusion about how water can corrode a mostly plastic system, but that's a different subject.

alx

I think you are missing my point. If there is rust in a plastic system is means it got pumped in most likely or there was water that somehow was not separated sufficiently (ie lots of water). If consumer cannot prove which gas station has corroded diesel tanks or piping or water seeping in the tank or whatever ... It is not mb's fault...

This is how I see it. If it is a gas station problem, but she cannot pinpoint which one... Why is it mb's problem?

BlownV8

If the fuel filter and water seperator/sensor failed, it is a design/parts flaw and would be up to Mercedes to repair the system. Water and other contaminates are going to occur in fuel from time to time. It's just a fact of life. That's why the fuel system has safeguards in place.

BMW went through a similar situation over a decade ago with their Nikasil coating. They blamed the failure on fuel that was too high in sulfur - not their fault. The high sulfer content caused the Nikasil coating to degrade. Of course, with an aluminum bore and aluminum pistons and no coating between them, the engine will seize. Many did just that. BMW ended up replacing a bunch of engines are extending the warranties on even more.

jbondox

I just want to say thanks to my local dealer who never charged me a penny after my wife filled the loaner vehicles tank with gas.... and said they have seen it done a few times....

Good luck!

Fourdiesel

JenB - Something else you may want to pursue later on as the situation warrants: http://www.dfispdx.com/ (Diesel Fuel Injection Service) is a good Bosch warranty and rebuild service. They are fully qualified and licensed (and equipped) by Bosch. They are in Portland, OR but service the entire West. They, or someone like them, would be able to take an expensive part, such as the high pressure common rail pump component, test it, and determine if it really IS damaged. That should be done before a piece is replaced "just because" it might be compromised. Same with the injectors. I would do this on my own 'nickle' if I had to pay for any of those parts. I'd want to have my own independent expert show me that it really does need to be replaced/rebuilt before I spent over $1000 for a component.
If you insist on this, and the dealer KNOWS you will insist, He also might be a little more careful about which components he says need to be replaced! (and, or course, each piece has its own labor charge to remove and replace - all of which quickly add up)

hubert

If its not mb problem why do they put fuel filters water seperators??? If the diesel was dirty rusty there is the fuel filter to prevent the dirt getting to lines injectors and the engine in whole and if ther was too much water a warning light should have come up or the water seperator is also there to do its job and i guess all of it failed wich ends up being mb fault for using parts that did not do their jobs....