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Bingo. I wish I had seen this thread before last time I did this service.
The switch from red to blue FE spec fluid was only due to continuing ramp-up of fuel economy mandates.
I won't run 5w-30 unless I move to Canada, northern Canada.
Valvoline does this with motor oil product, too (SynTech?) - formulate for the latest diesel requirements across manufacturers, without submitting for manufacturer certifications.
Multiply the certification fees by 24 and as the saying goes, "and all the sudden you're talking about real money".
E Coupe C207, ML W166, ML W164, Sprinter 1500/144, W111 SB220 Fintail(s), A5 chassis Beetle 5+5
Just like the 75w-80 diff fluid. It serves no purpose except imaginary mpg, and is certainly not a necessary change of specification....or 20 weight oil, not in the interest of engine longevity.
fwiw, API American 5w-30 is quite thin, and never was a recommended fluid. Euro 5w-30 is on the thicker end of the range and will serve most drivers well.
Wait, how can 0w-30 be thicker than 5w-30??? Trust me, it is.
I should update the graph, but the point is/was that 5w-40 is too thick for winter. 3x-4x thicker than 5w-30 is a big deal with a 4 cyl turbo, where the oil lines are thin and the oil flow is insufficient. Remember, oil pressure isn't what cools bearings, it's FLOW...except that can't make a FLOW meter for the engine....pressure it is. You can have TONS of pressure, but without flow it's meaningless...about as meaningless as MB spec oil. Sure 229.5 is the top spec for passenger cars, but chug-a-lug 6cyl engines are easy on oil and car literally run on ANY oil in the store. Name one that will harm the engine??? Nope.
These guys who think MB 229 oil is a necessity clam up if I ask about Rotella 5w-40.
Last edited by Audi Junkie; 05-07-2021 at 12:02 PM.
Are we still wondering if one fluid can cover an infinite number of specs? Ask Motul...
Dexron VI does it ALL!
This is too easy.
That's great if you run a transmission shop or just want to stock a few fluids, but as an owner where it calls for ATF 134 FE, why wouldn't you want a fluid with the FE benefits?
I don't understand why you would think that if you have a choice between the manufacturers exact spec and a one size fits all, you wouldn't go with the exact spec. There's no logic in picking a one size fits all type of fluid as sometimes, it's not one size fits all when you can just pick the exact spec.
Umm, price?
Availability? (That is, not constraining yourself to specialist vendors, possible delays in shipping...)
Hate shopping? Three different makes in your household fleet?
extended drain. I remember the fiasco when they were first formulating, but they got it right eventually.
5 year change interval, environmentally safe(, relatively).
The origin of the Euro/Asian/American differences on coolant formulation comes Not from euro/asian unobtanium materials in their motors and cooling systems.
It's the prevalence of minerals and salts in the local water, that the customers would use to mix with the concentrate.
Europe has very high mineral content, Asia has some other issue, and distilled water not as available as in U.S.
With the ATF FE specs, it's personal preference for sure.
Really, all of these things are preferences.
(But I will say - Driving style makes more difference than FE vs. non...)
E Coupe C207, ML W166, ML W164, Sprinter 1500/144, W111 SB220 Fintail(s), A5 chassis Beetle 5+5
The driving style thing nails it. I wouldn't use FE if you gave it to me. Same for 20 weight oil or low octane gas. All of those things would work fine in mom's car.
E Coupe C207, ML W166, ML W164, Sprinter 1500/144, W111 SB220 Fintail(s), A5 chassis Beetle 5+5
All these ATFs are the same. Auto mfg want their own spec fluid for tie-in sales, but use the exact same ZF or Asian trans. "Different" spec, same trans....and you fall for it.
While I do not disagree with you about the sepcificality claims of the MB ATF, I do not think that all ATF oils are the same.. They evolved and improved over the years. I was looking for the data sheet of Maxlife ATF, and found that it lists limited data on its properties. From what I understand, this is a thinner ATF compared to the Shell ATF-134, wrt flash point (185 degrees C vs ~205) and viscosity at 40 C (>20 mm^2/s vs 29). No viscosity data at 100 degrees C though. This is a full synthetic oil vs semi-synthetic oil of Shell ATF-134. I am looking for the OEM or the alternatives ATF oil for my 236.10 tranny, 5G, but have a hard time to find it, or they are way too expensive for me to buy a case to flush the old oil out...Shell 134 is actually not the OEM oil for the 236.10, but MB nevertheless recommended it or approved it. No sure if MB actually tested it out, or just brush it under the rug. Of course, Valvoline is not approved, but it does not matter to Valvoline as it just compared the data and felt that it should work for MB 236.12 and higher... but no where did I find that it is recommended for the older model with 236.10 or lower. I guess that Maxlife is a thinner oil for those older cars using thicker fluids . Do not know if it is a bad thing if I do (wear on gears) or it may be a good thing to save on gas? Heck, even the Shell ATF -134 (approved for 236.14 or 12) is thinner than 236.10...I think.
Transmissions just aren't that complicated. There are wet clutches inside the transmission, and they shed junk into the oil, so the oil has to be regularly changed, whether partially or completely. A thinner (which presumably is what the FE oils are) oil may or may not be significant as far as the transmission is concerned. Given that the oil pump and passageways are presumably calibrated to a certain type of oil, I would not mess with it. The benefits of a different oil do not outweigh the risk, but that's just my opinion. I highly doubt there is any magic woowoo in later grades of fluid.
MB does not make their own fluids. The presumed ideal is to go with the OEM supplier. Pentosin is generally regarded, right or wrong, as the proper replacement. Which is not to say that other fluids are not acceptable. The cost savings are not large enough to make it worth taking the chance.
E Coupe C207, ML W166, ML W164, Sprinter 1500/144, W111 SB220 Fintail(s), A5 chassis Beetle 5+5
It's not that complicated. The old fluids sheared down, the new fluids don't. That's why new fluids can perform the same at a thinner starting visc, same thing for lightweight gear oils and MTF. The old fluids start thicker *because* they shear.
Motul seems to think every ATF on Earth is the same Dexron 6.
And isn't it funny that it's not on any of MB's approved list? Valvoline tends to do that, have fluids that claim to meet manufacturer spec but isn't on any of their approved lists. They actually have a fluid that's 236.14 approved, but it's not Maxlife. At least Shell is on the approved list.
E Coupe C207, ML W166, ML W164, Sprinter 1500/144, W111 SB220 Fintail(s), A5 chassis Beetle 5+5
Do you even know how the approval list works?
Do you think Mercedes goes around testing every Ma & Pa ATF and gives it's seal of approval like a blue ribbon at a country fair?
Do you believe it's possible for an ATF to exceed a spec, but not carry it on the label?
Are you still confused? That's because the "approval" carries a licence fee of at least $500,000, plus a per-litre charge on top of that.
So as a marketing decision the blender-retailer might not choose to pay a fee to an auto mfg just to label their product as "approved", rather they rely on their own reputation, like AMSoil does. Maxlife has decades of the most stellar reputation with people who actually have used it. It has the best basestock and most advanced additives and friction modifiers that exist, not some old obsolete junk from the Nixon Era. I still hear vintage guys recommending Dexron II, because they researched it and "that's what's in the manual", lol....completely oblivious to new Dex 6 ATF being "100% backwards compatible", even if it is 10% thinner....
Do you think Mercedes goes around testing every Ma & Pa ATF and gives it's seal of approval like a blue ribbon at a country fair?
Do you believe it's possible for an ATF to exceed a spec, but not carry it on the label?
Are you still confused? That's because the "approval" carries a licence fee of at least $500,000, plus a per-litre charge on top of that.
So as a marketing decision the blender-retailer might not choose to pay a fee to an auto mfg just to label their product as "approved", rather they rely on their own reputation, like AMSoil does. Maxlife has decades of the most stellar reputation with people who actually have used it. It has the best basestock and most advanced additives and friction modifiers that exist, not some old obsolete junk from the Nixon Era. I still hear vintage guys recommending Dexron II, because they researched it and "that's what's in the manual", lol....completely oblivious to new Dex 6 ATF being "100% backwards compatible", even if it is 10% thinner....
Yes, I'm well aware of how various makers get on the list, they have to pay the fee and meet the spec. Otherwise you're just taking the word of the manufacturer of the fluid and not the manufacturer of the car. I'd rather have both parties in agreement. You should read the entire maxlife spec, good for both 236.14 and 236.15 and if you read the bottles where they're on the approved list, they say not to use one fluid in the other but somehow Maxlife meets both except in California where they're not permitted to say that.
I of course don't really care, but it doesn't make sense to experiment where your sample size is one. I'm fine with the Shell stuff, I can get it from a local distributor and it's on MB approved list, not from some manufacturer who is either too cheap to submit it for manufacturer approval or basically doesn't meet the spec of the car manufacturer.
Yes, I'm well aware of how various makers get on the list, they have to pay the fee and meet the spec. Otherwise you're just taking the word of the manufacturer of the fluid and not the manufacturer of the car. I'd rather have both parties in agreement. You should read the entire maxlife spec, good for both 236.14 and 236.15 and if you read the bottles where they're on the approved list, they say not to use one fluid in the other but somehow Maxlife meets both except in California where they're not permitted to say that.
I of course don't really care, but it doesn't make sense to experiment where your sample size is one. I'm fine with the Shell stuff, I can get it from a local distributor and it's on MB approved list, not from some manufacturer who is either too cheap to submit it for manufacturer approval or basically doesn't meet the spec of the car manufacturer.
Hear me out ...Here is what I have to say...
My 2003 SLK320 has ~80K miles on it...It has the same OEM transmission oil since new for the last 19 years. I drove it for pleasure, so the mileage is low, and I am not lazy or cheap to not change the oil because that is what MB advertised for this damn sealed transmission system. They claimed it is a "lifetime" thing or 100K miles thing if I understood correctly. Heck, I am actually not too lazy... Now do I feel betrayed or what? do I trust MB claims on the approved oil brands? My tranny oil probably is out of specs of any brands, approved or not and I think it is still OK...although the car still drives OK and no oil leak yet.
I am going to replace this oil after I learned here that the MB's lifetime claims are some marketing gimmicks. So I checked my owner's manual to buy "OEM" oil. I could not actually find any brands that was approved here, other than ads from a few suppliers, and mostly it is "Dexron III H" type. I have to say this is what I used back in the 80s and 90s...and now some sellers charge more than $5 a quart. I even saw one sell for $11. I am not that el cheapo but this blew my mind.
I was told that ATF 134 will work for my car. Okay...OEM is not cheap but the alternative is not that bad, at least it is not as bad as the Dexron III. Here is the catch, had MB actually tested this oil on the older tranny? or just assume that it would work because it is newer and thinner and improved ? If they had, do any of us see the test results?
While to be selected by MB for approved producers carried a certain "prestige" image, and costs money, but these producers can surcharge the oil because of that too...How on earth do you think that MB approved stuffs costs a lot more than the average Joe's stuffs? Even if it is a little "different" in performance purely from the material costs standpoint. Here I used the word "different" but not superior or anything like that because I really do not know enough...What I do know is that the gasoline I use...is actually from the same storage tanks nearby that distributed to different gas stations...Be it called X, Y, and Z. Some special brands will tell you that they have proprietary additives to help reduce x, y, z...but the rest regular oils are pretty much the same thing...
E Coupe C207, ML W166, ML W164, Sprinter 1500/144, W111 SB220 Fintail(s), A5 chassis Beetle 5+5
Umm, my sample size isn't one. It's good to understand how approval specs as established and licenced. The thing is, unless you know the difference between 236.14 and 236.15 it's just an exercise in futility to try to infer data about them from the random process of spec approval. Seriously, are lots of companies rushing out to gain obsolete MB approvals? Not really. Does that mean you're stuck with old obsolete fluids just for the "feez" because an old spec is listed? For some of us, it makes all the difference. For me, it's a laugh that we're even talking about this, when there's state of the art ATF on the shelf for $4 Supertech or Maxlife.
Another thing to understand is not just the viscosity changes over it's service life, the friction coefficient rooster tails off too, So when a blender makes a product "in the middle", it's not necessarily meeting a single spec, but catching them all at once.
Again, all car cos adopted Dex III except Chrysler ATF+4 and Ford Mercon V, which have their own parameters for secondary characteristics, like cold flow or flashpoint.
They. All. Do. The. Same. Thing.
I feel like I'm wasting my time at this point, I can't cure whatever bothers you with Maxlife. Since you want the old spec, you can get it in Shell.
https://www.opieoils.co.uk/c-918-mb-23614.aspx
When you see the same fluid carry both the 236.14 and 236.15, like Miller's or Motul, I don't understand why you would believe there's any meaningful difference between the fluids, or the specs, like I mentioned at the top of this thread. This becomes a waste of my time.
Junkie Out.
Last edited by Audi Junkie; 09-17-2022 at 10:41 AM.
E Coupe C207, ML W166, ML W164, Sprinter 1500/144, W111 SB220 Fintail(s), A5 chassis Beetle 5+5
Everybody who uses Maxlife reports a smoother trans with better shifting. ATF is ATF, you buy the best product that suits you. $10 for Mobil 1 is fine, but if I spend $10, I want QUALITY, not Dexron IlI-H, a suffix added when they decided on a slight improvement in 1994.
Spending a lot of time and effort typing makes little sense when a single ATF works as good as or better than ANYTHING ELSE EVER CREATED.
Dexron-III(H) fluid. This fluid is backward compatible with all previous Dexron fluids as well as the Type "A" Suffix "A", and the Type "A" fluids produced from 1949 to 1966.
Type F is the only "bad" ATF, it has no detergents or additives, it's for old farm tractors with rope gaskets.
SPECS
SUITABLE FOR USE IN 95% of ATF VEHICLES in operation with US registered light duty applications.
HIGH PERFORMANCE CONDITIONING AGENTS prolong seal elasticity to prevent leaks
IMPROVE DURABILITY & TRANSMISSION LIFE with anti-wear technology to avoid costly repairs
ENHANCED HIGH & LOW TEMP PERFORMANCE supports transmission fluid in all weather situations
FULL SYNTHETIC FORMULA protects against engine breakdown better than conventional fluids
Everybody who uses Maxlife reports a smoother trans with better shifting. ATF is ATF, you buy the best product that suits you. $10 for Mobil 1 is fine, but if I spend $10, I want QUALITY, not Dexron IlI-H, a suffix added when they decided on a slight improvement in 1994.
Spending a lot of time and effort typing makes little sense when a single ATF works as good as or better than ANYTHING ELSE EVER CREATED.
Type F is the only "bad" ATF, it has no detergents or additives, it's for old farm tractors with rope gaskets.
If you have a trans dipstick, just use an extractor to suck 3q out at a time. Do it 2-3 times, and you're good.
You know what the hall mark of science is all about right? Repeatable reproducible results. What exactly is your sample size when you refer to everyone and how did you quantify smoother transmission with better shifting? Where is your study data compared to the factory recommended fluid? And how do you know it's quality? Because the manufacturer of the fluid said so? Let's see the data on the quality if you're going to use something that claims it's superior.
As for sucking out the fluid, well you're missing the filter replacement and cleaning out the magnet but I guess doing half the job is better than nothing. The Shell ATF 134 was about $6 a quart from a distributor when I got it, not sure what they charge now. I think Maxlife is around $5 a quart at Walmart. Dealer will charge over $20 a quart though.
Everybody who uses Maxlife reports a smoother trans with better shifting. ATF is ATF, you buy the best product that suits you. $10 for Mobil 1 is fine, but if I spend $10, I want QUALITY, not Dexron IlI-H, a suffix added when they decided on a slight improvement in 1994.
Spending a lot of time and effort typing makes little sense when a single ATF works as good as or better than ANYTHING ELSE EVER CREATED.
If you have a trans dipstick, just use an extractor to suck 3q out at a time. Do it 2-3 times, and you're good.
Well, please do not feel that your time is wasted...Your opinions and links helped others to get the best judgement about what they are getting...
I am a newbie in this forum but certainly not by age. I looked for the OEM for my 236.10 oil so that I know what it actually is or "was". The oil in my car at this stage probably is the lousiest that you can find on the market, when I was led to believe that it is still OK...So I am pretty sure whatever I buy is not going to do any more harm to the gears, no matter what people have to say.
I will have to clean out the oil pan and replace the plug when I change the oil. After 19 years, who know what is in there and if the O rings will break down any time soon. As you suggested, I will do this flush out with a vacuum tube from the "sealed" dipstick tube several times after the initial change. Thanks a lot.
I suppose everyone thought the oil manufacturers… all had refineries making the ATF. The USA is the largest consumer of oil products in the world… and guess what we have one refinery that makes ATF… base… all the brands buy spec. base stocks which in the case of synthetic oils are all made from natural gas. What the oil companies like Valvoline do is by the correct base product then add proprietary additives, back at their plants. Valvoline is the oldest American, meaning likely world wide automotive lube producer. The German companies do this buy based and mix additives too but on a tiny scale. The color is a dye the base stock synthetic ATF is clear. Now the one that is different is Amsoil as they use ester base sticks in their products… they say it is better but it is basically the ester oils the Germans developed in WW2 and used alcohol as the starting chemical. Now synthetic oils are made from pure single molecule bases but petroleum oil is made of multiple similar molecules resulting from oil refining. Prior to 1974 the ATF … all of it had sperm whale oil as the major additive… the loss of it was devastating for several years making trans shops rich. Sperm whale oil is just about the best lubricant ever made…. It does not age effectivitly. All the Best.
E Coupe C207, ML W166, ML W164, Sprinter 1500/144, W111 SB220 Fintail(s), A5 chassis Beetle 5+5
Originally Posted by Audi Junkie
It's not that complicated. The old fluids sheared down, the new fluids don't. That's why new fluids can perform the same at a thinner starting visc, same thing for lightweight gear oils and MTF. The old fluids start thicker *because* they shear.
Motul seems to think every ATF on Earth is the same Dexron 6.
So I guess there are 200 completely different types of ATF, since nobody here knows the difference.
...and MOTUL has no clue, since they recommend Dex 6 for everything....same for Valvoline. Nope, only the dopes in the peanut gallery who know everything/nothing are correct.
Last edited by Audi Junkie; 06-22-2023 at 12:41 PM.
E Coupe C207, ML W166, ML W164, Sprinter 1500/144, W111 SB220 Fintail(s), A5 chassis Beetle 5+5
Originally Posted by cetialpha5
Yes, I'm well aware of how various makers get on the list, they have to pay the fee and meet the spec. Otherwise you're just taking the word of the manufacturer of the fluid and not the manufacturer of the car. I'd rather have both parties in agreement. You should read the entire maxlife spec, good for both 236.14 and 236.15 and if you read the bottles where they're on the approved list, they say not to use one fluid in the other but somehow Maxlife meets both except in California where they're not permitted to say that.
I of course don't really care, but it doesn't make sense to experiment where your sample size is one. I'm fine with the Shell stuff, I can get it from a local distributor and it's on MB approved list, not from some manufacturer who is either too cheap to submit it for manufacturer approval or basically doesn't meet the spec of the car manufacturer.
Still waiting for your PRIMARY research on all of those factory ATFs and how they differ so greatly.
How do you get people to talk to you in real life?
Ha haa this is hilarious, its been the hot topic since I started to hanging around this forum and BW about 2006-07.
Everybody has their own opinion and that is fine, looks like everyone has a different story, here is mine;
When it was the time for me to do a tranny service on my W210 which has a 722.6, I read, read and read but never had a solid answer, back then the issue was also 236.10 fluid was nowhere to be found anymore.
I decided to go with Fuchs Titan 3353, which was a 236.12 spec, today that one is also non existence.
I had a slight issue with the tranny prior to change, it was not a jerk but between 2nd -3rd gears it was a weird feeling as if someone was pulling the car from behind, especially in the slow traffic, especially with the hesitant throttle inputs, when it was WOT, the car shifted beautifully.
Issue was still there after the fluid change, then next time I decided to take the chance and give Valvoline a chance.
I`ve done full fluid exchange from the return line coming to radiator, then change the filter and gasket, back then what made me go with Valvoline was 236.10 writing on the blue Multi Vehicle Import bottle.
Meanwhile my best friend bought a W211 with 722.6 at 112K miles, at 120K we did a fluid filter job for him with red bottle Maxlife, prior to change, his shifts were a little rough, after the change I`ll never forget his reaction, woooww, woooww, kept saying wooow next 45 minutes.
When I mention this in the BW, forum gods hang me dry How can I be so ignorant to put Maxlife in a fine automobile like Mercedes Benz LOL
At that time, I was driving 50 miles one way to work, 6 days a week and my intervals was coming pretty quick. So I decided to go with red bottle Maxlife, no issues again.
I cannot say my issue was gone but it was less pronounced, lets put it this way.
Long story short, when I first started using Valvoline, my 210 was around 102K and when I sold it, had 220K on the clock, no issues whatsoever.
My friend on the other hand, we have done a few more fluid-filter jobs for him with Maxlife again, finally sold the car due to catalytic convertor issues around 340 or 360K just this past November.
I`m in the 722.9 camp for a while now, did not need to change the atf in my 2011 E350, that was done by the dealer just before the purchase but its about time now, my GL is also getting close, hence I`m in the transmission topics again. I was thinking Valvoline would come up with something by now which would cover the 236.15 territory and I saw this thread.
Also hesitant to do the job due to my busy schedule, an Indy just quoted me $600, one car is ok but when you have 2 and fully capable of doing the job sounds like a waste of valuable amount of money.
Last edited by 01blackhawk; 06-26-2023 at 01:12 PM.
cough cough since we're talking about oil and I basically live here to talk about oil and repairs now:
Signature series is great, pretty much a one and done stuff since the reserve protection is awesome from being 100% synthetic so it doesn't cook off/sludge up/aerate. It's not MB spec, no universal is, but to broaden your thinking the 236.15 spec can pretty much be duped by a lot of people, HPL, Liquimoly, VAICO. I'm not joking India and China have their own 236.15. The Chinese ones are even approved by MB which is not great if you know what I know about chinese material acquisition/business practices and their NDT.
Anyway, Maxlife is weird in that they claim you can use it in the low viscosity transmissions we use today, but then they go and make a dedicated 236.15 oil anyway. I HAVE actually used it about 5 or so times on the old ATF134 cars, I won't attempt it on the newer cars that take the blue stuff although I actually secretly think the transmissions stayed the same all along, it was the fluid that we changed just to cheat the EPA. On the older ATF134 cars you could pretty much put ANYTHING in them in a pinch and this happened quite a bit due to parts stores just selling whatever. I've drained pretty much every brand of ATF from S430's/CLK430s in my experience.
I don't have experience using maxlife on the FE transmissions, but if you take a look at the current Dexron VI FE, it's backwards compatiable and and it's odd because Ford's Mercon V is not backwards compatible.
I will actually defend Maxlife and say that it's fine. It has a waxy residue which probably isn't the best for performance but it's saved a few transmissions MB has written off before.
05-07-2021, 11:11 AM
