dwnsouf7

Wait what do you mean LED Light on stock housing ? ..you can plug LEd on stock without the Kit ??? can you please explain ?

eric_in_sd

LED bulbs are a direct swap for the halogen H7. The resulting beam pattern, at least with the bulbs I installed, is excellent.

It can be difficult to navigate all the options. Many different types and lots of hype.

DarthVaderpa

My original headlights were halogen, then I found a couple of used bi-hid reflectors and replaced the old "mono" reflectors. I also installed hid in the high lights. The results were very noticeable. After having a couple of hick-ups with the high lights I decided to install LED in the high lights. Then I ordered the EVOX-R V2.0 D2S Projectors, but decided not to install after I got a good deal on a set of morimoto bi-led. The morimoto bi-led deliver a really crispy and powerful light and when I put the high lights I got a lot of light.

Tsumi

Yes, you can get an LED drop in replacement. Most of the Amazon ones are junk. The Morimoto 2Stroke 3.0 are the best at the moment, but in general you will want something that is at least $125 a pair. Of course, none of the options can beat a true retrofit.

eric_in_sd

Untrue and untrue.

Based on prior comments, I believe Mr./Ms. Tsumi has not done a comparison, so is not qualified to make this statement.

I do not have a "true retrofit" to compare against, but LEDs are such an enormous improvement over halogens I really do not care.

Tsumi

I posted real world results that you didn't even bother reading and even began saying incorrect statements, so with all due respect you are even less qualified. For one, LEDs heat up internally and thus emits heat at the base, hence the need for heatsinks and often fans on high power LEDs. They simply do not emit infrared radiation like halogen and xenon bulbs.

eric_in_sd

It is strange, the obsession HID owners have with proving themselves right.

I guess it is not that strange; I would be upset if I spent $$$ and began to wonder if I had made a mistake.

Arguing that you made a good decision won't help yourself or anyone else. Do not purposefully mislead others to make yourself feel better. If you wish, chuckle to yourself how much smarter you are than those other fools.

What is done is done. You cannot get a refund on your purchase; just go and enjoy your headlights in peace.

Tsumi

Again, proof that you lost an argument due to resorting to personal attacks. Please post objective proof refuting what I have stated, otherwise don't pose yourself as an expert.

eric_in_sd

Just this morning I noticed that the other of my low beams lost one side of its illumination. So this failure is not likely to be an anomaly, but structural. Again, this failure came at about 750 hours, as the lights were used in DRL mode for most of their life of 34k miles.

Note we see this with household LED bulbs: It is cheaper to over-drive fewer LED, sacrificing longevity for cost. An LED could in principle last forever, if kept cool enough. People complain that LED bulbs from Walmart, for example, often do not last anywhere near their promised lifetime.

I am curious what life people get out of automotive HID bulbs, considering they are in about the worst possible environment for HID, with short cycles and vibration.

eric_in_sd

BlownV8

The makers of LED lights like to advertise the lifespan but never have I ever experienced anything close to any of the projected lifespans of any LED bulbs. They have all failed at less than half the advertised life span. They like to throw the life expectancy out but, from all the major LED bulb manufactures I've used, the warranties are limited to a few years when you read the fine print.

Not knocking LED lights at all since I've switched everything I own to LED's except my GL's headlights. I got a chuckle out of your comments because it is so true.

eric_in_sd

Yep.

Someone on Youtube, I think Big Clive, did a teardown of Dubai light bulbs. A law there mandated, I think it was, certain efficiency ratings to guarantee that the LEDs themselves were not fully driven. The light output per watt drops as the driving voltage increases - and heat, which is the killer of LEDs, increases as a result. The companies that sell these light bulbs hate the regulations because these bulbs last way too long. The bulbs are moderately more expensive to produce, but the killer for the manufacturers is they do not get to sell replacement bulbs. It sucks; talk about built in obsolescence.

You could probably get the advertised life if you operated the bulbs in liquid nitrogen.

My guess is the automotive LED makers set the driving voltage low enough that the bulbs will last long enough to not overly irritate the customers - and make it past the warranty period.

I got 34k miles of near continuous use, probably 30k continuous and 4k dark only, out of these, which ain't too bad, much better than halogen, but way less than advertised lifespan. There are still a heck of a lot of halogens out there begging to be replaced, so it is irritating that manufacturers are not making them for true lifetime use. If that is what Tsumi meant about "junk", I'll take it.

In shopping for the replacements, I was careful to look at the reviews for complaints about early life failure. The new ones I got brag about a copper core, and look like they distribute the load over three times as many LEDs, but who knows if it actually works.

I am very curious about real-world HID bulb life. HID bulbs don't like to be switched on and off; rated life is typically with 10 hour duty cycles, whereas average automotive duty cycle is more like one hour to ten minutes. A thousand hours of only the night time portion of driving should be quite a long service life in miles, though.

Tsumi

You do realize that proper LED projector retrofits exist, right? Why would companies develop those and complete LED housing assemblies if drop in LED bulbs worked just as well? Spoiler alert, they don't. Well, maybe with the exception of OEM Toyota and Honda LED assemblies, those are junk (too much glare and/or all aimed too high from the factory).

I don't have an obsession with HIDs, I just want things done right. During the time of my first retrofits, LED projectors were significantly more expensive and performed worse than their HID counterparts. Now, LED projectors are only somewhat more expensive and perform comparably. If I was doing a full retrofit now I would most likely opt for the LED projectors.

My 55 watt HIDs (55 watt shortens lifespan by 20% or so) have been running fine for the past 3 years and 10k miles in a high vibration sports car. Granted, they don't perform DRL duty, but I'm satisfied with that lifespan so far.

eric_in_sd

Because then they can sell expensive complete LED housing assemblies.

Plus, the physical installation is a pain on H7. Why lamp manufacturers did not do away with the pain-inducing retaining clips is beyond me.

Spoiler alert: They do. I long ago posted pictures of the beam patterns. They are excellent, both high, low, and also "fog", which I use as low speed driving lights to watch for deer off to the sides and as DRLs in high-risk (e.g. two lane road) areas.

Why bother, when the stock housings work great?

If the LED appropriately simulates the H7 filament beam pattern, they will give equivalent results in the H7 housings. When I first got into this, I figured that two hemispherical distribution LED arrays would do that, and I was right. The new ones with a cylindrical array seem just as good if not better.

Here is the low beam pattern on a sheet of cardboard.


If y'all are interested, I can take a picture against my garage door. Now I live out in the country and it's mighty dark out here.

I'm not trying to sell anyone on LED lights; I'm just giving information about my own experience and based on my own knowledge. That's what a forum is for, to share wisdom and experience, not prove others wrong.

Tsumi

Sure sounds like you are.

Your knowledge is incomplete and wrong. Just because you believe yourself to be an expert does not make you one. Until you can post objective measurements and comparisons, like I did, your "wisdom" is worth less than the storage space your posts use up.

A forum is a place for discussion, not one-sided handing down of "wisdom." If you have an issue with that, go establish a cult where you can share your "wisdom" without being challenged.

eric_in_sd

Projection is a psychological term for accusing others of what you are guilty. I think it is about time to mute your sorry self.

Tsumi

I will let the forum members decide for themselves who is projecting on whom.

EWT

I dropped out of this discussion because it quickly turned into a p@ssing match, but here's what my EVOX-R output looks like. Notice how much defined the cutoff is. The light distribution is better even though EVOX-Rs have a more intense hotspot than other projectors. It is impossible to tell from pictures without a side by side with the camera on the same exposure settings, but the projectors almost certainly significantly brighter as well. If that doesn't matter to you, that's fine, but what's "good enough" for one person may not be "good enough" for others. I've got "good" (Morimoto 2 stroke) drop in LED bulbs in another car (Mazda 6) and it is improved over the original halogen bulbs, but the output is far from what you get with a quality aftermarket projector. I'm not sure what the future is given the dramatically better quality of headlights in higher end cars these days, but there are quite a few people/companies that make a pretty good living retrofitting projectors. If you could get comparable results by just dropping in a bulb (H7s are more work than most due to their stupid retention system) that wouldn't be the case.

Also, this isn't a HID vs. LED debate. It is a OEM vs. aftermarket projector debate. The projector makes a bigger difference than the bulb. I did new Philips bulbs with my projectors and I was curious too see how much the original bulbs had deteriorated. New bulbs in the old projectors were slightly better. New bulbs in new projectors were much better. YMMV, but there's a reason people take headlights apart and replace projectors.

eric_in_sd

Okay, I'll take the Pepsi challenge. I'll head out after dark to get some beers for watching the fights, assuming they're still on, and take a picture against my garage door.

About what distance are you from the garage in that picture? And is that both headlights, or just one side?

BlownV8

This is from 2009 when I shared my conversion. Same things were said back then. All I know, they are so much better than stock halogen bulbs. Cutoff is sharp with great illumination.
HID Conversion with pictures - MBWorld.org Forums

eric_in_sd

What bulbs are those? Reason I ask is lots of the Japanese cars use 900x, which, in my daughter's Jeep at least, have an awful beam pattern. I recall the same in my Honda. In that case, replacing the whole projector makes complete sense.

EWT

The Mazda uses H11s. The projectors aren't terrible, but they're not great They're permasealed and supposed to be very tough to open, so I just went with the drop in bulbs on that car. I originally had a set of Amazon cheapie LED bulbs that weren't very good in those projectors, and they ended up in the fogs on my GL after I got the Morimotos.

After looking at my post again, I realized that picture I posted is actually the output from a RX350 projector I used in one of my other cars. I've changed the picture to show what output from the EVOX-R projectors in the GL looks like @ 30 feet. This should be interesting to see how they compare.

Tsumi

Proof that the OEM Mercedes HID projector was garbage. That projector is on the top right. Yes, part of it is cut off due to the position, but it's enough to get a comparison. I doubt the halogen projectors were that much better, though they most likely don't suffer from the reflector bowl burn issues the HID ones had.

That said, a projector (and by extension headlight assembly) will always perform better (better light distribution) with its intended light source. A brighter light source will not remedy bad optics design, though it may mask it to a certain degree. A projector by design prevents most of the glare caused by using an unintended light source, but the beam pattern will not be as designed. The bulky LED stuff are the worst offenders, while the ultra-thin 2-sided designs like the Morimoto 2Stroke are the most accurate at reproducing the filament design. The $90 a pair Hikari Ultras are the cheapest that reproduce this design that has been expertly tested.

I'll post the same thread I linked earlier, but this time a specific post: https://www.tacomaworld.com/threads/...#post-24728699
Here you see that while the 2Stroke 3.0 (latest and greatest in LED bulb tech) beats the stock cheap halogen bulbs by about 40% in brightness, it still loses to the brightest halogen bulbs by about 15%. That said, the brightest halogen bulbs do only have a lifespan of about 200 hours while stock brightness is about 400 hours, which is their primary drawback. The other drawback is they will lose up to 30% of their brightness as they near end of life, making replacement before complete failure a necessity.

In the 3rd post of that thread which compares to an OEM LED assembly, the OEM LED is 10% brighter than top performing halogens. There is a limit to how much power you can put through a halogen-replacement LED headlight bulb.

eric_in_sd

As soon as I get the electrical bug worked out, and the half-failed bulb replaced, I'll post the pics.

By the way, it looks like you have the left adjusted a little higher than the right. I am assuming you are not in the UK; I grew up thinking the left should actually be a bit lower than the right. However, the cutoff on these H7 projectors is so sharp it is probably not an issue either way.

Also, you are right about the general topic and my intrusion thereupon; the OP asked what is best, not what is better. I do have to say, the vitriol I faced when I first got the LEDs surprised me. One fellow even went out of his way to take a dump in the thread and then sneer that he was not going to respond. Maybe it is a holdover from early terrible designs. If the LEDs are not at the right position, the lights will not project well at all.

EWT

I'm in the US. They're pretty close to the same height. I didn't obsess over getting projector alignment absolutely perfect as the only time you can tell is when you're projecting them against a wall. Drop in LED bulbs have gotten much better. In addition to the projectors being better, the other big win from retrofitting is that the projector is designed for the bulb put in it. With drop in bulbs, you're trying to approximate a thin filament in the halogen bulb with a HID arc that approximates it pretty well or LEDs mounted to flat surface. The old ones with one big LED on either side didn't approximate them so well, but the newer ones with rows of small LEDs are much better.

I actually have drop in LEDs in my high beams on the GL. I don't think they were much of an improvement in output over the halogens, but there is no longer a big contrast between the color of the light from the projectors and the high beams. That is actually another positive in favor of retrofitting if your car came with halogens projectors as well. You get more high beam output because the retrofit projectors are bi-xenon which means they have a shield that moves to turn the low beam projector into a high beam when the high beams are activated. If I was planning to keep mine for a long time, I'd probably open them up again and replace the high beams with high beam projectors since the reflector bowls are in sad condition, but I'm going to try to hit the distance to the moon on the odometer (14K to go) and move on if used car prices ever return to something approaching sanity since I've been spending a pretty good % of a car payment on repairs over the last year or two.