chassis

No, BMW increased base model horsepower on the X5 from F15 to G05. Porsche increased base model horsepower on the Cayenne from 92A to 9Y0. Audi increased base model horsepower from 4L to 4M.

In contrast, MB reduced base model horsepower from W166 to V167. Poor product management.

US models referred to.

js_cls

Audi went from a 3.0T as base to 2.0T with less power. The majority of GLE, X5, and Q7 buyers do not care about power, you’re really making this a bigger deal than most care about. Mercedes own press materials rate the V166 slower to 60 than the V167 despite the horsepower decrease. The turbo allows power to come in at lower RPM as well as increase MPG.

W205C43PFL

I see. Thanks for your comment chassis.

Hmmm, I see. Did anyone actually put the two SUVs on a dyno for actual numbers though?

Edit: Just to be clear, I meant the W166 GLE 350 and the V167 GLE 350 for comparison. Not Audi, Bmw comparing to Mercedes.

chassis

How do we really know what people care about? Genuine question.

Correct again on the Audi. So MB is offering Audi levels of base model horsepower, below the levels offered by Porsche and BMW. BMW and Porsche understandably command a base model price premium, one reason being higher horsepower. Other reasons create a long list of advantages.

MB went downmarket with the V167 base GLE 350.

js_cls

Because the vast majority of GLE’s sold are 350’s. While MB does make a model with power equivalent to the Audi 3.0T and BMW 3.0T at similar prices, that model sells in smaller numbers. The majority of GLE customers are not enthusiasts and simply just people wanting a luxury car. Forums represent a small number of owners.

The Audi and Mercedes offer base models below $60k, that’s their choice, it offers greater market accessibility. Each brand offers different version of “base.” Comparing a GLE350 and Q7 2.0T to an X5 40i just because its labeled as the base model doesn’t make sense as the GLE450 and Q7 3.0T are the equivalent models and are also available for sale, its not like MB is forcing anyone to get a 350 to compare to the X5, they offer equivalent models.

As for the Porsche, its base model is $70k, incomparable to MB and Audi at a $15k difference, even the 450 and 3.0T are cheaper and offer greater performance. And in Porsche world, base means even a lack of keyless startup. If you want a Cayenne even close to the equipment levels of BMW, Audi, or MB you are paying a $20k premium. If you want a V8 in your Cayenne your paying $110k closer to a GLE63 or X5M with less performance, and is $30k more than both GLE580, X5 50i and $20k more than SQ7 which its more comparable to.

Again, I don’t understand why there are complaints of MB offering the 350 model, they are still offering models that offer competitive performance at similar pricing to their closest competitors. The GLE450 exists. And numbers only tell part of the story, again the GLE350 may have had a drop in horsepower, but it has two more gears, a turbocharger, torque is pretty similar but comes in much earlier, and has actually a quicker 0-60 time than the outgoing GLE350 while also achieving better MPG.

Even when the V166 was in production, the “base” GLE350’s performance was inferior to the X5 35i (as well as the new GLE350). of its time which was also the “base” X5. The GLE400 was much more competitive with the X5, despite also being more expensive than the X5 (2017 X5 35i xDrive was under $60k, 2017 GLE400 4Matic was $65k)

chassis

Lots of words, thanks for them. My point is MB has flubbed their product management and has gone downmarket with the V167 base model GLE 350. It's OK if you don't agree. It's a big world and we all fit in it. MB is swirling the drain in many ways in my view.

Total cumulative sales for the past 20 years appear by eyeing the charts to favor X5 over GLE/ML. 2020 for the GLE was a real kick in the shins from a sales volume point of view.

W205C43PFL

Is that USA or the globe?

Aggie57

We came from a ‘15 GLK 350 to a ‘21 GLE 350, so dropped 50bhp or so with a larger body. I also drive a ‘20 911 so am used to cars with decent power. The 350 is adequate, not as smooth as the GLE and it uses a little more gas around town which surprised me. I did expect better mileage with the newer car even with the larger body.

Would I like a 450? Well, yes I would if it’s smoother and a bit more torquey than the 350 but do I need the 450, not if I’m being honest. If we used it to tow then maybe yes. But I would like to have the air suspension because the 350 doesn’t have the smoothest ride in my view. It’s just a little unsettled on any sort of uneven surface.

Bryce1023

I agree that the GLE 350 engine is not as powerful as the base engine in the X5. However, when evaluating both vehicles, that was the only aspect of the X5 that I liked more. Since I liked the design of the exterior of the GLE, the interior was was a generation ahead of the X5 , seating was better for me in the GLE, my decision was simple , GLE all the way. It would have been a completely different issue if the 350 was underpowered , it is not, at least for my needs and that’s all that matters. I am not a devout MB proponent, in fact I have owned 2 BMWs and they were great cars. For me horsepower is a component of what goes into my buying decision, there are so many other equally important issues to be evaluated.

chassis

USA using carsalesbase data

TexAg91

I always get a kick out of reading posts like this. You're not going to change the opinion of someone's who's already made up their mind. Besides, if everyone always agreed and wanted the exact same thing, it would be a boring world. Fortunately there is variety and choice. If you don't like value offered by the base GLE, you can buy something else. If enough consumers agree with you, it will get the manufacturer's attention. If not, then all the complaints in the world won't change a thing. Words are cheap, it's sales and profit that matter.

W205C43PFL

I see.

W205C43PFL

Unfortunately it doesn't seem like MB really cares that much about us customers. They decided to offer nothing instead of the best. They prefer to sell what they want instead of what consumers want. For example: https://mbworld.org/forums/s-class-w...as-got-go.html, when other companies like Porsche offers 1.6 quintillion options on the Panamera (Source: Engineering explained) but MB decides to force tiers on USA buyers. There is a reason why petition don't always work, manufacturers don't care. For example, some phone companies remove sd card slots, headphone jacks, put plastic backs on the phones everyone complains about it but people WON'T vote with their wallet. The price goes up for these devices even prior to chip shortage with less features every year and the sales are still through the roof because manufacturers know that customers will buy them. Although, part of the reason could be that these customers are not that well educated as well on the omitted features on the previous generation.

paulmj1

Interesting that Mercedes just released annual USA sales figures that show the most popular model of all is the GLE. Y-Y sales up 35% for the GLE. According to my dealer, 80% of GLE models sold are 350s. Someone must know what they’re doing!

chassis

Agree. Looks like BMW beat MB in 2021. MB hasn't release retail sales yet to directly compare with BMW. The MB release I saw was wholesale and marked "preliminary".

mikapen

Mercedes released its Q4 sales figures. GLE up substantially, brand leader for M-B.
https://media.mbusa.com/releases/mer...29574-vehicles

mikapen

Mercedes has improved the base GLE (V167) dramatically over the W166. The chassis is in another league (thank goodness!) and the engine finally has enough power to move the car with authority. The published HP / TQ numbers don't tell how much the performance has increased.
The power delivery of the engine, coupled with a couple more gears, is particularly well sorted and brings the car to life.

In fact, if you spend any time driving them and comparing their performance, the 3.5 V6 was inadequate for the car, where the "four banger" finally gives the GLE enough power that you aren't disappointed every time you press the gas pedal. Yes, I've spent a lot of miles (thousands each) in the old 350, as well as the new 350, 450, and AMG versions.

Those who blindly follow the (obsolete) "There's no replacement for displacement" mantra, better not drive the new GLE 350. They'll have to eat crow, but they will probably not do it publicly. Another example - comparing the old 6.3L V8 with the new 4.0L, where the new engine just performs better.

Both the V167 chassis and new engine lineup (all of them) are miles ahead of the old ones, in performance as well as economy.

Saying that "Entry level GLE customers are getting less with V167 than they did with W166" is really an incorrect statement. They are getting a lot more, with a more modern, higher performance engine as well as a better chassis.

TexAg91

In God I trust, all others bring data.

Mercedes-Benz reports 2021 US sales of 329,574 vehicles

I appreciate a good debate, but this one has been decided. The GLE is Mercedes' best selling SUV, and 2021 sales are up 11% (in the US) over 2020 sales. Moreover, 2020 sales of the GLE (globally) were up 32% over 2019. The majority of GLE sales are 350s. Until that changes, Mercedes isn't changing anything.

chassis

Thanks @mikapen . The 4 banger is rough and sounds like it is working harder than the prior base engine. Less horsepower is, well, less horsepower. It is what it is.

Congrats to MB on the record GLE sales. Too early to know if the 4 banger has the same piston cracking problem of its predecessor, or what the longer term reliability is of the 48V system and battery will be.

Until then caveat emptor in excelsis.


I have high hopes for the inline 6. Physics and history are working in its favor. If the 450 had a no-48V option it would be on my next up list. As it is, other brands have bumped MB to the bottom.

shotgun_banjo

I'm in a dilemma right now which one to get. 4 or 6. Tested the 4 and it is surprisingly good but it just makes noise and not sure how it will pull with a full load. The vehicle I am looking at with a 6 is a brand new 2021 (last batch that just got delivered 1 week ago) vs a 2022 4 banger with more options. Hard to decide actually as I have not tested the 6 yet (maybe on Monday). If i get the 2021 it is $3100 less than the 2022 i6 (price went up for 2022) so it is a very tempting car but without the tech pack and small 20" wheels (it has a sport pack).

GregW / Oregon

Six is a better fit in this price range, IMO. Try it and see if you agree.

W205C43PFL

If you want a better sounding engine and pulls more effortlessly at high speeds like 75 miles per hr and above or when passing (if it is legal in your country of course) the inline 6 is the better option. You get smoother start/stop as engine turns off before your vehicle slows to a stop, no traditional starter noise as the vehicle fires right up and smoother engine over all when driving.

shotgun_banjo

I actually turned off the start/stop after stopping at 3 intersections. It just made it feel awkward. One thing that I will have to live with if I get the i6 is a potential dead truck and tow to the service center for battery replacement. I will be keeping the truck for +7 years so I guess I should start putting $3 on a piggy bank to save for that eventful moment.

W205C43PFL

What we are currently worried about is if Mercedes fixed the M274 piston cracking issue on the newer M264 which you are considering. Until then it is hard to gauge the reliability of a M264 engine with no hybrid system compared to a M256 with the 48V hybrid system.

That being said, I really hope that no one that currently has a GLE 350 or is a future owner has to deal with this piston cracking or currently has a GLE 450 or is a future owner deal with this annoying 48V battery issue.

W205C43PFL

To make things complicated, Mercedes decides to come up with a M254 for the new C-Class (W206 C 300) and then throw a mild-hybrid system in it. I don't understand why they don't just use the M264 instead. Did they make some additional changes as they are uncertain if the M264 suffers from the defect of the M274 (or I am hoping it is for a different reason).

Another thing to note is, outside of North America, the E 350 (W213) facelift uses a M264 with a 48V mild hybrid system and not a M254. The E 350 in North America uses the same engine without the 48V mild system.