Just a few minutes ago I mentioned that as an "informed consumer," it very important toverify what is written on the repair Order before you approve it. If you approved those wipers and rotation, it's on you. If you didn't approve those charges before you dropped off the car, they owe you a refund. Federal Law. That's what the signature block that says "I Approve" is for.

A Blanket Statement such as "What you are NOT paying for is better service performed on your car" isn't relevant. Maybe, maybe not.

I like Indy's - I WAS One for a few years. Licensed, Insured, Registered with the State, Certified in many areas. Specialized in Land Cruisers and 356's. People came from every neighboring State because of quality and fairness. I did a lot of Warranty Maintenance.
But I've also taken over a few failed or abandoned projects that the Indy's just couldn't handle. Yes I had @$20,000 in tools, even than in the 70's
You just have to choose what suits you best.

I have to leave this exciting conversation to go down to a couple of Independent Shops to "quibble" over the damage done to my Friend's truck and my AMG. I'd guess we are talking about $3-5,000 damages just on those two. Mine's "just" tires.

 

Oh it was my fault for letting him screw me, but that doesnt mean he didnt set out to to screw me and that wasn't wrong. There was no signed repair order, I took the car in for an "A Service" he told me what the cost would be, but didnt inform me that he had added things Mercedes doesn't put in their A Service. Most people do not sign an estimate for routine maintenance before its performed.

No, I stand by that. There are many independent shops where you get as good or better quality service work for less. You are just paying the dealer more for their facility, their brand and their service perks like loaners.

If you think independent shops won't work on 20 year old cars and that shops need "different equipment" to work on a car from the early 2000s vs a car from 2020 you are far, far removed from that experience lol.

And how about the two ruined engines I mentioned from dealer work, one of which was a Mercedes dealer? My guess is an engine for a 2021 S580 costs more than $3-5,000.

The point is, dealers make mistakes too.

 

So much misinformation flying about here.
But it's the Internet.

 

Yes...from you lol. I am 100% correct.

I am absolutely not talking about any such thing. Drive by a quality independent mechanic and look at the age of cars in their parking lot. I own a car that is 20 years old, and no shop has ever refused to work on it, You are over-emphasizing how old "20 years old" is today. Its a car from 2002.

Thats why you choose a specialist shop that has that equipment, and it does not cost $100,000, nowhere even close to that. The oil drain plug was your example not mine.



Half price from the dealer? All day long. Like I said, dealer prices are extremely inflated.

You are just wrong. I don't believe any of the background you claim to have because what you are saying is total hogwash, every bit of it.

 

Mikapen,

Can we just agree that we disagree? I really don’t care what you think, but don’t put words in my mouth or assume something, which you do a lot with my posts. If you have a problem with me and my posts—if it bothers you that much—put me on ignore. However, I’m going to call you out every time I think you’re wrong. Frankly, I would just stop because you look foolish at this point.

 

Take this advice Mikapen...

 

Off to try to get a replacement engine for my Friend, and a new tire or two or more for me from the Indy's.
Who'da thunk a simple oil change would cost an engine, and a simple air leak would cost two tires?
I won't go back.

And I won't go back to that "highly recommended" Euro car specialist, who put the wrong lube in my tranny and ruined all the syncros. Lack of Factory Training or ability to read the shop manual.
And I won't go back to that M-B dealer, even though they finally refunded the additives and tire rotation that I didn't authorize. Or the defective loaner that I refused and they charged me for the repairs even though I never accepted the loaner.

There's no generalization that applies everywhere.

 

It’s always about what you can’t see and about what happens when something costly goes wrong. Might never happen, but overlooking risk is up to you. A disgruntled employee can get even on his last day. Maybe you get a new guy. Maybe in a Metro area you are just $$$ to them! There are no two situations alike since there are Humans involved in the process.

You keep repeating the phrase about good work as if that has anything to do with risk. I know what I’m talking about having built a few homes. This has nothing to do with quality. You seem hung up on the example and miss the point about financial viability. When the roofer drives up in a Crew Cab, doesn’t have a business location, drops off a crew that can’t speak English, maybe it’s not business as usual. It’s a poor example here but was on my mind since it just happened. There are large Indy shops specializing in German cars to the Xpress Lube type that will happily service your car. The larger shop isn’t going to be that much less expensive in my experience. I just shopped a brake job for my wife’s Audi and my Dealer was $75 cheaper with the 15% Costco discount.

This was about the high labor rate for Service A or B, not your personal experience with a Dealer. I’ve never had an issue with a MB Dealer Service. Frankly our personal experience means little except that maybe my Dealer is better than yours. Repeated damage to a car in for service seems highly unusual but why return after the first time? All MB Dealers or are you just putting all Dealers in a single pot? Did they stand behind the issues and fix the damage?
My Dealer applies TSB’s and actually does the complete checklist, some might not. He lists the oil used on my work order so I know it’s correct and meets warranty. I can get a free loaner or a ride if I don’t choose to wait in a very nice lounge. They place protective mats and seat covers before I even leave. If they screw up I have some leverage with management as a repeat customer. They have the financial resources to pay if something goes wrong. I wouldn’t bet that an Indy has Insurance to cover an engine replacement…I’ll bet that’s not a question anyone asks.
I will pay extra for the overall package but OP felt he was obligated to go to the Dealer which isn’t true, IMO.

 

You keep ignoring the two cases I have mentioned of simple oil changed done by dealers costing engines.

See the above.

So where do you go?! Won't go back to an independent shop, or a specialist euro shop, or the dealer...running out of places.

I have never been asked to sign anything before any routine scheduled maintenance, or even before a repair after being given an estimate over the phone. Your experience is out of date.

And even if I had signed, I did not know that he had added items that I did not request. So, I should have done that research, but he showed himself to be dishonest. That dishonesty is what has earned dealer personnel their reputations.



And a Mercedes specialist shop is going to have all those widgets, or widgets that are compatible. My Lexus mechanic won't, which is why I wouldn't take it there.

And since you are the expert, please detail for us the specialized diagnostic tools that are PROPRIETARY to MB (meaning not usable on other makes) and are REQUIRED to effectively service and repair an MB that total $100,000 in cost to a shop. You should know this off the top of your head.



Because it makes customers comfortable. Experience beats training any day. You will find that your specialist shops will have numerous factory trained techs there because they pay better, and techs eventually leave dealerships because they are overworked and underpaid.

Then frankly, your indy sucks.



You will find that parts are available for cars much older than 7 years despite the fed requirement. Like I said, the average car on the road in the US is 12.2 years old, those cars have available parts. As I have said, I have never in my life heard of an independent shop turning away cars because they are too old. Thats like a doctor refusing to see old people lol.



And my experience is the opposite. And yes, I have had lots of stuff done to my cars by my indys and have not paid for it, which amount to a "good will adjustment". And If I have paid over the course of ownership of a vehicle thousands and thousands of dollars more in inflated dealer cost...is that really good will?

 

Admit it. You spew too much misinformation.
Show me ONE THING where I've made an incorrect statement and not acknowledged it. You can't.
It's fine if you take pleasure in thinking that you've made a conquest with your hateful Schraed.... but this is a public forum.
Usually I ignore trolls, but you take the cake.

I have NOT put words in your mouth, but I have quoted you a few times - it's funny that you argue with yourself when you dont even recognize that they're your words!
Show me ONE TIME where I have "put words in your mouth." You can't.

We can agree to disagree about Opinions, but you're too far afield with your "facts." Some people actually believe your BMW etc. rants.
Take responsibility for your misinformation instead of attacking others.
I know it's fun for you (your words, not mine) to challenge and make fun of others, especially those with more knowledge (as you yourself, not me) have demonstrated.

If it's your opinion, have at it.
If somebody has a different opinion, don't attack, as you seem to do with every post that doesn't agree with you. Take a look at your posts, and see if anybody has escaped your retorts. Very few.
Don't want to be called out for misinformation? Don't post it, even if it gives you joy. Or Schradenfeld as you call it.

 

You are assuming that the dealer will own up to what they did and cover the cost of fixing what went wrong. They will not do that without a fight, I know this from having fought them to fix damage they have done to my cars over the years. And, independent mechanics are insured against errors and their ensuing losses. So, if you are doing business with an independent mechanic and they mess something up, there is financial viability there.

You are taking it to the extreme. Not everybody who isnt a huge enterprise "is a guy in a crew cab without a business location". There are completely legitimate much smaller contractors and in my experience (I own a real estate and property management company and have been long involved with building, renovating and repairing homes) you get better work for lower cost. Those contractors are completely financially viable, insured and bonded, and my business matters a lot to them, so they make sure they treat me right.

That mirrors my experience with independent shops vs dealers.

Thats not my experience.

Thats multiple cars with multiple different dealers over the course of my life, not one car damaged repeatedly by one dealer. I'm putting dealers in a single pot. Dealers are dealers, the franchise doesn't make much difference.

So does any good shop.

I actually have an independent that gives loaners, and in the money I'm saving I could rent a Ferrari for the day lol. But, the ease and convenience of the dealer is a big plus.

So does any good shop.

Dealer doesn't give a crap about you, they have customers lined up and their reputation and reviews are usually terrible. An independent mechanic who relies on their reputation to stay alive cares a lot more.

Any good legitimate shop will, and its a question you should ask.

 

You said dealer labor rates aren't $200. They are.
You said an MB oil change wasn't $300. It is.
You said that $300 includes diagnostics and finding and fixing rattles. It doesn't.
You said that there is $100,000 worth of diagnostic equipment that is required to work on a Mercedes. There isn't.
You said that dealers make more money on F&I than they do service. They don't.
You said independent mechanics won't work on cars 20 years old or older. They do.
You said it was very difficult to find parts for cars older than 7 years old. Its not.
You said cars older than 20 years old require specialized equipment to work on. They don't.

Shall I continue?

 

You're 100% correct? How about 20% ?
You are making generalizations based on your experience. The may or may not apply to the others.

Try reading more carefully. I didn't say a drain plug cost $100,000 (your words not mine). But the diagnostic equipment certainly does! In the 80's, when the first new 7 Series showed up, the early diagnostic machines were $40,000. That was the start of the Huge (manufacturer-mandated) Dollar diagnostics machines. Was that before your time?
The Half Price you quoted are not for a simple oil change. Apples to Apples, with all the warranty required checks? Of course, just tell them not to do all the work!

You may not believe my background and expertise, but it's there, and so are the finances I quoted. It's fluctuating a lot now, but your numbers are from the early 50's.
Hogwash - your words, not mine.

 

Mikapen, did you not say that dealers don’t charge $200 an hour and that I’m wrong? Did you not say that F&I is the biggest money maker for dealers? Do those things not count?

 

Please do, if you like the way you are going....

 

Like I asked above, lay it out for us. Tell us specifically what proprietary diagnostic equipment is required to service a Mercedes specifically and show us how it adds up to $100,000. Should be easy for you. This isn't the 1980s.

Half price. All the warranty required checks. Call around, get prices.

Wrong

You are full....of....poop.

 

You said all of the above things right here in this thread. You can try and gaslight someone else lol

Another thing you said that was wrong, was that a Mercedes tech personally has bought $40-80,000 worth of tools. They haven't.

 

Well, the things i posted were what I posted. But you misquoted again.
No, I didn't say $200. Try cutting an pasting - just paste MY comments, not yours, so you don't mislead further.
I did say that F&I is usually the biggest profit center. I think you posted something that supports that in this thread. Usually about a third. See my post. See your post.

 

You are bouncing around like a pin ball machine. You make arguments that have nothing to do with my two points of Risk and Financial capability. There are lots of good as well as some bad businesses of all kinds. Knowing the risks and being aware of the difference in Financial capacity should be part of most decisions.
You got ripped off on your Dealer service but that’s partially on you if you didn’t know or think to ask what’s involved. The prices charged are set by the Dealer. Mistakes or unpleasant surprises like yours happen to all of us at some point.
I read the A & B Service document long ago and never let them replace the wipers or rotate my tires. Wipers are listed for replacement in both Services so the Dealer happily obliged. The SA should tell you if the Dealer has a policy of rotating tires. It’s pretty standard to rotate them unless you DIY…overcharging isn’t required.
Mercedes doesn’t come close to Porsche Service prices. We buy a nice expensive car and get to enjoy more nice prices with no great options for service.

 

As for where dealers make their money. This edmunds article (which was already posted) is from 2019, a ways away from the "early 50s". The data is from the National Automobile Dealers Association...

https://www.edmunds.com/car-buying/w...ake-money.html



From Forbes in 2012, also 60 years after the "early 50s"

So do we listen to the NADA and Forbes, or you? It aint you lol.

 

Mikapen,

Look at post #24. You said I got bad service. What? That’s putting words in my mouth if you ask me. Is it not? I never got bad service.

Look at post #41. You jumped to a conclusion that the repair ticket was for my car.

You’ve done that to me a few times. Actually more than that. You’ve attacked me on numerous posts for no good reasons prior to all of this drama. You’re starting to have circular arguments and if there’s anyone trying to troll anyone else, it is you.

 

What he posted said it was a third, but that service and parts was 44%, which is more than a third. I reposted it above as well as another source.

It was on me because I trusted that the dealer service rep would not screw me and would perform the service I asked for. Thats not exactly a glowing exoneration of him. And remember this was brought to my attention by another service rep who works for the same dealer group.

Yes, we all get screwed by dealers at some point. Whats the common denominator? Wouldn't it be nice if they didn't try and screw us and just treated us fairly?

You don't rotate staggered tires. Not standard lol And again, I went to a different service rep at the same dealership, it clearly was not their policy.

Tons of great euro car specialists.

 

Go back and look closer. I may have referred to some of those statements, but they are not mine.
Talk about out of touch!

Have you bought a Snap-On reader recently? These Pro's don't buy at Harbor Freight. And most of them need more than one stall just to hold their fully independent suspension-ed tool "chests" that they buy with their own money.
Ask the Snap-On guy what the average Tech spends annually on tools and this year's latest diagnostic. Yes, they spend the money to make more money.

 

Mikapen: what were you trying to insinuate here, then?

 

Um, no. You have a way of half saying things and then just moving on when its made clear you are wrong.

Lay it out for us. List us the proprietary tools and what they cost. Remember, tools that are ONLY for use with a Mercedes. This is the third time I have asked. This should be EASY for a veteran of the field like you.

I know factory master techs, I have them as clients and I know their income and assets. They don't make enough money to invest $40-80k in tools. There was a time when they did, but that time is decades and decades ago.