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I saw it earlier but didn't look farther because it didn't apply to either a GLE or my 19 GLC.
I thought it was unusual because it only applied to transverse engines, and also because TSBs usually include VIN ranges.
I also wondered why tha M264 engines weren't included. There must be a difference.
And why only Canadian cars? Consumer protection laws? Different heads?
The TSBReseach link didn't pull up a GLE, either, but I could be using it wrong.
Warranty extension letter is in accordance with the requirements of the Canadian Environmental Protection Act of 1999, so that is why... It is a very common problem with M260 engines based on my conversation with MB service manager. It is covered under warranty. Problem is if that happens after your warranty expires. That is why Canadians get the extension of warranty. I will call US MB to check on it. Per service manager, they cannot fix it until it happens, so MB should extend the warranty in other countries including US if they are behind their products...
See below link. It is not a recall, it is a service bulletin, which lists the engines. Sometimes it doesn't open for me, so I posted the other link which doesn't have all the cars related to the engines.
I saw it earlier but didn't look farther because it didn't apply to either a GLE or my 19 GLC.
I thought it was unusual because it only applied to transverse engines, and also because TSBs usually include VIN ranges.
I also wondered why tha M264 engines weren't included. There must be a difference.
And why only Canadian cars? Consumer protection laws? Different heads?
The TSBReseach link didn't pull up a GLE, either, but I could be using it wrong.
Looks like MB is starting to fess up to bum cylinder heads on M260/M264 which are genetically descended from and share componentry with the piston cracking M274. I wouldn’t touch any MB four banger with any length pole for the foreseeable future. Especially AMG four pots where they are pushing the envelope of specific power. Strong avoid.
Here’s hoping the M177 rear main seal failure problem doesn’t become widespread and MB issues a field fix for failed vapor separators. Fortunately the vapor separator itself isn’t terribly expensive, but dealer labor to replace is exorbitant because intercoolers need to be moved or removed in some installations. DIY it shouldn’t be too bad, just time, aggravation and inconvenience on a vehicle, the price point of which should grant the owner immunity to such annoyances.
Thankfully for owners, the 3.0 M256 inline six doesn’t seem to be plagued (yet) with substandard engineering as the fours and eights have suffered.
That said, numbers without context are meaningless. Mercedes had/has supply chain issues, impacting the sales of GLE in 2022. Anybody looking for one, especially 450's will know that.
Wether one likes it or not, Mercedes has been selling every GLE they could get their hands on and demand outstripped supply. This is the very definition of a well selling car.
Personally, I actually prefer the X5 over the GLE but the utility and space of the GLE is simply better (as with the prior GLE model) and since that was the primary purpose of getting the car it was an easy choice.
Interesting discussion from top to bottom. I just bought a CPO E450 and was browsing around (looking to see if the GLE450 had any reports of annoying diesel sounds at idle) and found this thread. Personally, I like the detail based threads better than the finger pointing ones, but still I couldn't stop reading for some reason...
I agree, GCBC has good data for US and Canada. I pulled the 2022 numbers into a sortable Spread Sheet. Attached is a shot comparing BMW and Merc. BMW surely crushed MB in sales, but then again, they are discounting their cars more than most, and MB isn't (to the contrary actually). Assuming these numbers are right, 82k to 58K for X5 vs GLE is not an ignorable stat.
BTW, the sums in the bottom row are for all cars - I should not have included it as it is confusing.
Last edited by ddeliber; Feb 20, 2023 at 05:25 PM.
I don't know who ended up last year with the most recalls after Ford, but it may be Tesla, Toyota and Hyundai again. The "most reliable" according to Power and CR.
If I were trying to predict future market trends as a manufacturer, I think I'd Punt.
Interesting discussion from top to bottom. I just bought a CPO E450 and was browsing around (looking to see if the GLE450 had any reports of annoying diesel sounds at idle) and found this thread. Personally, I like the detail based threads better than the finger pointing ones, but still I couldn't stop reading for some reason...
I agree, GCBC has good data for US and Canada. I pulled the 2022 numbers into a sortable Spread Sheet. Attached is a shot comparing BMW and Merc. BMW surely crushed MB in sales, but then again, they are discounting their cars more than most, and MB isn't (to the contrary actually). Assuming these numbers are right, 82k to 58K for X5 vs GLE is not an ignorable stat.
BTW, the sums in the bottom row are for all cars - I should not have included it as it is confusing.
The GLE numbers are off as February data is missing (also on their site). Assume 5-6k so it will be in the low sixties.
But again, since one can’t sell what is not available and BMW has had more inventory and less part shortages during the last 2 years.
Was depressing walking into these empty MB dealer showrooms and the sales guys trying to sell future allocations…
2021 Mojave Silver E450, 2024 Black on Black Jaguar F-pace P400, 2011 335d (RIP), 2010 E350 (sold)
Originally Posted by Wolfman
The GLE numbers are off as February data is missing (also on their site). Assume 5-6k so it will be in the low sixties.
But again, since one can’t sell what is not available and BMW has had more inventory and less part shortages during the last 2 years.
Was depressing walking into these empty MB dealer showrooms and the sales guys trying to sell future allocations…
I am pretty sure that MB and BMW moved to reporting quarterly if so, we'll have to wait until April to see. edit - now I see what you meant, yea, not sure what happened to Feb. Similar for the C-class in 1Q22, not sure what was up with that as well.
I hear you about the inventory, it definitely messes with the numbers and the prices. I believe that things have changed or are in the process of changing though. Can't say about everywhere but my local dealer (in a group of 3 MB dealers in the Boston area) is showing over 50 GLE's in stock (24 of them are GLE53's, 3 63's but only 4 450s) most of which have pictures so I am guessing they are not "in transit". Having said this, they are notorious for high prices and "market adjustments". When I was looking to buy my e450 I saw a G-Class Wagon in their showroom with a "market adjustment" tag at greater than $100k.
I guess my main point here is that sales numbers are governed by multiple factors and I am guessing reliability reports are less of a factor than people think.
The same dealer network has 2 BMW dealers that has just under 50 X5s (20 or so in transit), none have 4 cylinder engines, and from my sources X5s can be had for between $4 and $5k off MSRP (lease). I can't speak for anyone else, but, in a pinch, I would surely buy my 2nd choice vehicle at that price gap (especially if the my 1st choice was selling at over MSRP).
Last edited by ddeliber; Feb 20, 2023 at 10:39 PM.
Thanks for the catch. Why is this data different from three different sources? Is the number being manipulated? Regardless, taking yours, as highest number, 63,050, that is a whooping 30,000 less than X5 or almost 50%. Is that considered well compared to its direct competitor?
Originally Posted by Wolfman
But again, since one can’t sell what is not available and BMW has had more inventory and less part shortages during the last 2 years.
Was depressing walking into these empty MB dealer showrooms and the sales guys trying to sell future allocations…
How do you know BMW does not have that issue? They do/did. They dropped many features too. Their lots/showrooms were empty too. I remember when I was getting this one, there were around five on this dealer's lot. I had to switch dealership and order because this dealership flipped and dropped some items they had verbally agreed on.
Originally Posted by Wolfman
That said, numbers without context are meaningless. Mercedes had/has supply chain issues, impacting the sales of GLE in 2022. Anybody looking for one, especially 450's will know that.
Wether one likes it or not, Mercedes has been selling every GLE they could get their hands on and demand outstripped supply. This is the very definition of a well selling car.
If this is the definition of a well selling car, GLE is not the only. The debate is/was GLE sells as well as its direct competitor. So what is a better argument than the numbers themselves?
Originally Posted by Wolfman
Personally, I actually prefer the X5 over the GLE but the utility and space of the GLE is simply better (as with the prior GLE model) and since that was the primary purpose of getting the car it was an easy choice.
That is true and GLE also has other advantages over the X5 but they are irrelevant for the discussion, right?
I don't know who ended up last year with the most recalls after Ford, but it may be Tesla, Toyota and Hyundai again. The "most reliable" according to Power and CR.
Originally Posted by mb2be
So now we're talking about Tesla. Lol
I thought we were talking about the reliability reports, with a side trip down "who outsold whom."
I addressed both.
Reliability doesn't seem to sell cars.
The most recalled cars top both "most reliable" lists. Except Ford, who is the top seller, among the least reliable, and most recalls.
In my anecdotal experience, the GLEs have consistently sold for much more relative to their MSRP i.e. while X5s have recently been 5k under MSRP, GLE350s may still be at MSRP and GLE450s and nicer models may still be over MSRP. I would suggest that the GLE has more demand relative to supply then the X5.
Reliability not selling cars is just enabling companies to get lazy with ensuring their cars are reliable. Not a good thing for consumers.
I agree that carmakers should be aware of reliability and make corrections.
I should have said reliability ratings.
People are concerned about reliability, but clearly the Clickbait-ers aren't useful for high end car buyers. The more sophisticated buyers expect more from their cars.
Drivetrains are only 1/9th of the score and infotainment dominated the scores.
If recent reports about a simplified MBUX2 interface is true, it's an example of a manufacturer adjusting to complaints. I expect others do, as well.
Other reporting sources have been mentioned, and those are usually more reliable than the reliability ratings we see on slow news days.
(I'm not talking about the JD Power data as Clickbait - just the media that present their "take" on the actual info. CR is definitely Clickbait, since their car reviews counter their headlines.)
My complaint with the Clickbait stuff is that nobody can explain why the most recalled cars rate high on the polls. There seems to be a disconnect. Maybe its the polls themselves.
I agree that carmakers should be aware of reliability and make corrections.
I should have said reliability ratings.
People are concerned about reliability, but clearly the Clickbait-ers aren't useful for high end car buyers. The more sophisticated buyers expect more from their cars.
Drivetrains are only 1/9th of the score and infotainment dominated the scores.
If recent reports about a simplified MBUX2 interface is true, it's an example of a manufacturer adjusting to complaints. I expect others do, as well.
Other reporting sources have been mentioned, and those are usually more reliable than the reliability ratings we see on slow news days.
(I'm not talking about the JD Power data as Clickbait - just the media that present their "take" on the actual info. CR is definitely Clickbait, since their car reviews counter their headlines.)
My complaint with the Clickbait stuff is that nobody can explain why the most recalled cars rate high on the polls. There seems to be a disconnect. Maybe its the polls themselves.
"The more sophisticated buyers expect more from their cars."
^ I definitely agree with this. I'm not going to bother looking at how other brands like Ford, Toyota, etc rank on these lists because I don't care about those brands. But, it is worrying that MB shows up at the bottom of various lists while BMW keeps showing up on top. It's probably a tiny tiny factor at most in my decision making, but I do notice it and wonder.
Thanks for the catch. Why is this data different from three different sources? Is the number being manipulated? Regardless, taking yours, as highest number, 63,050, that is a whooping 30,000 less than X5 or almost 50%. Is that considered well compared to its direct competitor?
How do you know BMW does not have that issue? They do/did. They dropped many features too. Their lots/showrooms were empty too. I remember when I was getting this one, there were around five on this dealer's lot. I had to switch dealership and order because this dealership flipped and dropped some items they had verbally agreed on.
If this is the definition of a well selling car, GLE is not the only. The debate is/was GLE sells as well as its direct competitor. So what is a better argument than the numbers themselves?
That is true and GLE also has other advantages over the X5 but they are irrelevant for the discussion, right?
"The more sophisticated buyers expect more from their cars."
^ I definitely agree with this. I'm not going to bother looking at how other brands like Ford, Toyota, etc rank on these lists because I don't care about those brands. But, it is worrying that MB shows up at the bottom of various lists while BMW keeps showing up on top. It's probably a tiny tiny factor at most in my decision making, but I do notice it and wonder.
Agreed. Reason to dig deeper!
I just get a chuckle when I see so many media rags parroting the headlines, instead of the meat. Which is behind a Paywall, otherwise the misleading headlines wouldn't get eyeballs.
The responsible media don't even bother. They're the ones to read. And recall history, IMO.
I just get a chuckle when I see so many media rags parroting the headlines, instead of the meat. Which is behind a Paywall, otherwise the misleading headlines wouldn't get eyeballs.
The responsible media don't even bother. They're the ones to read. And recall history, IMO.
Here we go again. It has nothing to do with whether the media is responsible. They have access to the overall rankings and some general details, and can choose to report them or not. JD Power reserves the detailed results for compiled each automaker for that automaker. The logic being that Mercedes wants to know where they're doing well and where they need to improve. Mercedes paid for the information compiled from their customers, they can use it as they see fit - including sharing it with you should they choose to do so. Maybe if you ask nicely? (Good luck with that.) They are also welcome to use it for marketing purposes. Many brands at the top of the rankings do use it in advertising and press releases, which is where the misinformation about brands "buying their rankings" comes from.
Yep here we go again. I guess my posts are just too long.
One sentence:
I don't blame Power, just the media who does a crappy job of relaying facts, because we don't subscribe to Power.
Another:
CR is the worst because their subscription articles rate the GLE at the top, but their headline writer also does a crappy job of relaying their own findings.
Not sure why you're arguing though, cuz you're affirming my posts. Oops four paragraphs.
Yep here we go again. I guess my posts are just too long.
One sentence:
I don't blame Power, just the media who does a crappy job of relaying facts, because we don't subscribe to Power.
The media doesn't have all the facts. That's the fundamental part about JD Power you don't seem to understand. The media isn't click-baiting us with headlines. They can only provide limited information because they were only given limited information. And the media can't subscribe to get the dirty details. It is a survey service for automakers. JD Power wants the world to know how automakers rank overall - yes, but they aren't trying to air every automaker's dirty laundry. JDP does a number of annual surveys (Dependability, Initial Quality, Customer Service, Sales Satisfaction, etc), and automakers can pay them to get the data results or opt-out. To my knowledge, every automaker except for Tesla chooses to buy the data year-after-year.
The Media are one of JD Power's biggest subscriber groups. I didn't think that much is excluded from the info they buy, especially since they each have deep insight if you look past the headlines.
You just have to read a dozen articles to piece it together.
I spent several days before I entered this thread (post 45) deep diving after the release on Feb 9, because of all the hand-wringing and misinformation. Wanted to get my info correct.
My quotes, above, are from some of that research. They are sifted from the Greater BS.
Since I can find real information on their site, they do have it.
Since their headlines disagree with their articles, it's Clickbait. That's giving them the benefit of the doubt.
The media does not have Mercedes data packet. JD Power issues a press release for every ranking. The media chooses what details of that press release they wish to publish. If you came across specifics not provided in the link below, please share.
@HotRodW Thanks for posting the article I quoted earlier. Now you see what I was saying.
You're actually agreeing with my posts.
However the other reports I posted from various media, have a lot more information than was included in the JDP PR. They did include a lot more info, which were refuted by their headlines.
@HotRodW Thanks for posting the article I quoted earlier. Now you see what I was saying.
You're actually agreeing with my posts.
However the other reports I posted from various media, have a lot more information than was included in the JDP PR. They did include a lot more info, which were refuted by their headlines.
I don't think you can defend them either.
Yeah, that wasn't the article you quoted earlier. You mentioned CarScoops, not the full press release. And I most certainly am not agreeing with you. Your little misdirect attempt doesn't change what I already knew ... that you don't have any additional information. There likely is no additional information. It was all in the one press release. Unless MB decides to release the data themselves (why would they?), only Mercedes and JDP know exactly why Mercedes got dinged. Ditto all other automakers. You can continue to try to discredit JD Power, and maybe some still believe your BS, but hopefully a few forum members have a better understanding of how it works. And in case you're wondering, I'm a retired Marketing Consultant. Unlike you, I'm not making this stuff up as I go.
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