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Apologizing in advance for instigating more comparison ****, realizing that much of what gets posted to these threads comes down to personal preferences. But in this case, seeking informed points of view on a brand with which I have no experience: Audi. Hoping others might find this exchange useful too.
Need to replace a MY19 X5 DD going to a family member. Initial review of choices led to the usual suspects: X5 M60i, GLE 450, GLE 580. Later included Range Rover Sport SE P360 and SE Dynamic P400. Each has pros/cons.
The driving dynamics of the X5 are sublime; have loved that aspect of our 2019. But iDrive has been a mess, and the MY25 front end looks like an angry washing machine. Dislike the floating, unintegrated floating cockpit display.
The RRS cabin feels rich, love the exterior, but its minimalist cockpit and bolted-on-iPad infotainment display look like a hurried design mess. The Pivi Pro UI looks interesting, but I have zero experience with the brand and it would take a lot for me to leave the Teutonic universe.
The GLE options have been bubbling to the top of the list, in large part due to familiarity with the brand over 26 years of MB ownership, the superior cargo volume, and integrated cockpit/infotainment displays. As much as I might prefer the V8, it’s pretty thirsty; and for a DD, an optioned-out 450 would do just fine. (I have the E63 for spirited driving jollies.) So the GLE 450 is currently the top choice.
But recently, I started to consider the Audi SQ7. Had never before considered that brand, as an MB and BMW guy. And I find it compelling. The MY25 seems to strike a captivating balance between luxury and performance, in an exterior and interior design package that really catches my eye.. though the oversized grill admittedly does take some getting used to. The well-integrated displays look smart, but I am a little concerned about all the piano black surfaces. (I prefer open-grain woods.) Apples-to-apples build cost puts it slightly above the X5 M60i and the GLE 580, all twin-turbo V8s, all 500+ hp, all thirsty at the pump, all in the $108-111k range (though the BMW includes 3 years of scheduled maintenance). The Audi looks to have a couple cubic feet less of cargo space, which could prove material.
MY25 is set to be the last year (of ten) of this generation SQ7. Somewhat concerned it will quickly look long in the teeth when the gen 3 car debuts.
And I am a lighting guy. Advanced headlighting is important to me. The Audi seems to have done some cool things with its lighting program.
Haven’t really looked at the Q7, though on paper it is a more direct competitor the GLE 450. The SQ7 competes more directly with the GLE 580, from which I am somewhat shying away in favor of the 450’s economics.
So… that’s the context. Seems to be coming down to a choice between a $95k optioned-out MY25 GLE 450, and a $111k optioned-out MY25 SQ7 Prestige. Admittedly an unfair comparison at some level, but depending on the perspectives shared here, I might want to put the 450 against the Q7 vs the SQ7.
Sorry for the book. Thanks in advance for any insights you might share on a brand with which I have no prior experience.
You are comparing unlike models as you stated. Compare 450 to Q7 and 53 to SQ7.
Audi drives more like a BMW imo.
Audi/VAG reliability miles better than MB and comparable to BMW reliability, or a bit of advantage to BMW.
Audi uses the proven ZF8HP. GLE uses an in-house box which is widely agreed to be poor shifting, as are all MB boxes.
Q7 uses the reliable EA839 3.0T hot vee V6. 450 uses the M256 inline 6 which itself seems reliable but it comes with MB’s unreliable EQ-boost mild hybrid system which is to be avoided.
Non-AMG MB buyers usually seek comfort and MB aesthetics. But not reliability.
If driving dynamics and reliability at a given price point are important to you, get the Q7.
If you want more performance, the proper comparison is 53 vs SQ7.
Take a look at the GLE AMG 53 it has a nice blend of sportiness and luxury otherwise stick with the GLE 450 with airmatic suspension. When I was comparing the two pricing wasn’t too much more for the AMG 53 versus 450.
PFL205.064 with M276.823 (Oil pump solenoid defeated)
Just go full GLE 580, you get the smoothness of the V8, and you get better ride quality than the GLE 53 because it is not meant to be as sporty as the GLE 53.
Just go full GLE 580, you get the smoothness of the V8, and you get better ride quality than the GLE 53 because it is not meant to be as sporty as the GLE 53.
I would think if the GLE 53 is optioned with the AMG Ride Control, you would still have the comfort of the Airmatic but with the flip of the switch (activating the sway bars), you can get the sportiness of an AMG.
If I was OP, I'd probably lean towards the GLE 53 just because it sounds like he drives a lot and the 580 is very thirsty. With 90% of my driving in the city, I average around 13-14mpg on my 580 but the 10% of highway driving, it'll get up to 20-21mpg.
The 53 sounds like it would check most of his boxes.
Originally Posted by chassis
Audi/VAG reliability miles better than MB and comparable to BMW reliability, or a bit of advantage to BMW.
I think Audi is worse since it's replacing a difficult to get to alternator that goes caput around 20k miles, $5300 out of pocket to replace. Maybe Audi has worked up a solution for 2024s but I'd research it.
MB has ironed out the 48v issues back in 2021-22 which was mostly software updates or swapping out the battery ($1300 48v battery part with 2hrs of labor if you ever had to pay out of pocket).
If I were in your current position, it would be between the Porsche Cayenne S & GLE450, 53, 580. The Q7/SQ7 is very nice but past Audi ownership has left a check engine light burned into my soul. I had a 2020 Porsche Macan S that was trouble free, equipped with the same engine found in the current Q7. After about a year or so I got a bit bored with the Macan S, felt it was lacking power on the low end and installed a race-chip which I think brought the car back to life and made it enjoyable. Overall it made the upgrade to a Cayenne v. GLE decision difficult, but ended up with a GLE580 at the end of it based on value. There is a pretty comprehensive thread (link below) that has a lot of feedback from owners on both sides, along with their reasons for making their final decisions.
PFL205.064 with M276.823 (Oil pump solenoid defeated)
Originally Posted by wildta
I would think if the GLE 53 is optioned with the AMG Ride Control, you would still have the comfort of the Airmatic but with the flip of the switch (activating the sway bars), you can get the sportiness of an AMG.
If I was OP, I'd probably lean towards the GLE 53 just because it sounds like he drives a lot and the 580 is very thirsty. With 90% of my driving in the city, I average around 13-14mpg on my 580 but the 10% of highway driving, it'll get up to 20-21mpg.
The 53 sounds like it would check most of his boxes.
I think Audi is worse since it's replacing a difficult to get to alternator that goes caput around 20k miles, $5300 out of pocket to replace. Maybe Audi has worked up a solution for 2024s but I'd research it.
MB has ironed out the 48v issues back in 2021-22 which was mostly software updates or swapping out the battery ($1300 48v battery part with 2hrs of labor if you ever had to pay out of pocket).
My impression of an X5 M was that it undersdeered horribly. Yes I checked the tire pressure, no it wouldn't turn. Never spent any more time with them because of Nostrils.
The Q7'S looked pretty exciting 7 years ago, but they look and feel really primitive now.
I like the rear steer a lot, and I dislike the seats. Their technology should be fairly reliable now because it's almost a decade old and proven.
Without the Rear steer, the car seems really ponderous, even though it's close in size to a GLE.
I see, I understand now, is it more comfortable than GLE 580 then?
I think the 580 would still be more comfortable, except that I think I'd spend most of my time in sport mode with a 580. Because of the floatiness mentioned elsewhere.
Then I think it would come down to the the road and the surface. The ARC is amazing at soaking up huge potholes, especially mid-corner.
I'd choose a 580 for comfort (seats are a bonus), and an ARC equipped 53/63 for responsiveness. I think.
Just Audi. Porsche is okay AFAIK. But good to clarify since Porsche does use 48v but only for the active sway bar. Anyhow, I uploaded the docket and here is the list of affected vehicles (not sure why RS6 isn't included as this was part of the reason why I didn't acquire one besides cargo and 2nd row room):
"2018-2023 Audi A6, A7, A8, and Q7 vehicles; 2018 and 2020-2023 Audi S6, S7, S8, and R8 vehicles; 2018 and 2021-2023 Audi RS 7 vehicles; 2019-2023 Audi Q8 vehicles; 2020-2023 Audi A6 allroad, SQ7, SQ8, and RS Q8 vehicles; 2021-2023 Audi A7 e quattro vehicles; and 2020-2021 Audi A8 e quattro vehicles "
Separately but related because it's a very similar setup to the 48v mild hybrid, Porsche is implementing a 400V hybrid (60lbs, 1.9kWh, 400V battery) in their new 992.2 which I'm sure will eventually trickle into other VAG products in the coming years.
Thank you to all who have taken your time to respond. Grateful for your insights.
As for the Porsche option, the objective problem with the Cayenne is cargo space; not enough. The subjective problem is the brand design language; porting to every other model what worked brilliantly on the 911 doesn’t work, to my eye. My Porsche heart will likely forever be with the 930 Turbo widowmaker.
Starting to feel more comfortable limiting the scope to the GLE 450, 580, 53. May still want to spend time getting up close and personal with other options, especially the SQ7, but my gut tells me I’m going to end up in this MB range. Can’t be sure that my becoming smitten with Cardinal Red Metallic isn’t helping to influence my gut ;-)
Will continue to remain open to additional perspectives, all valuable to me. Thanks again for past and any future contributions.
Thank you to all who have taken your time to respond. Grateful for your insights.
As for the Porsche option, the objective problem with the Cayenne is cargo space; not enough. The subjective problem is the brand design language; porting to every other model what worked brilliantly on the 911 doesn’t work, to my eye. My Porsche heart will likely forever be with the 930 Turbo widowmaker.
Starting to feel more comfortable limiting the scope to the GLE 450, 580, 53. May still want to spend time getting up close and personal with other options, especially the SQ7, but my gut tells me I’m going to end up in this MB range. Can’t be sure that my becoming smitten with Cardinal Red Metallic isn’t helping to influence my gut ;-)
Will continue to remain open to additional perspectives, all valuable to me. Thanks again for past and any future contributions.
As @mikapen would recommend, take a tire pressure gauge with you when test driving and use the fuel flap PSI as a guide.
PFL205.064 with M276.823 (Oil pump solenoid defeated)
Originally Posted by mikapen
I think the 580 would still be more comfortable, except that I think I'd spend most of my time in sport mode with a 580. Because of the floatiness mentioned elsewhere.
Then I think it would come down to the the road and the surface. The ARC is amazing at soaking up huge potholes, especially mid-corner.
I'd choose a 580 for comfort (seats are a bonus), and an ARC equipped 53/63 for responsiveness. I think.
Thought I read that ARC was available, then it was not? ARC+ appears in the MY25 DOG as a Standard Feature. Did not see it as an option when doing a MY24 build online.
I can speak to the piano black, as my wife has that in her MB. We have open grain wood in the family GLE. The piano black is a nightmare compared to the wood. You basically have to dust if off every other day and you can see every place a finger touched or brushed against.
Get the X7, seriously. X5 has nonexistant back seats unless the driver is 5ft tall and Q7/SQ7 both drive like ****. I ordered a GLE450 a few months ago but regret that I didnt test drive the X7. Pricewise these are similar, at least in Europe. I have driven the X7 now and I like it better driving wise than the GLE and it is much more practical than the X5. Also, the look has grown on me in time. Sadly, I cant get out of my GLE order without a significant penalty but I really suggest you to test drive a X7 with M package. Only downside is it looks like $$$ whereas the GLE is the understated soccermom wagon.
p.s. Forgot to mention the suspension. X7 ride is just the right amount of compromise between sportiness and comfort. If the GLE/GLS air suspensions feel just a bit too floaty, the X7 is perfect for you!
Last edited by alex_forrest; 06-22-2024 at 03:56 PM.
Get the X7, seriously. X5 has nonexistant back seats unless the driver is 5ft tall and Q7/SQ7 both drive like ****. I ordered a GLE450 a few months ago but regret that I didnt test drive the X7. Pricewise these are similar, at least in Europe. I have driven the X7 now and I like it better driving wise than the GLE and it is much more practical than the X5. Also, the look has grown on me in time. Sadly, I cant get out of my GLE order without a significant penalty but I really suggest you to test drive a X7 with M package. Only downside is it looks like $$$ whereas the GLE is the understated soccermom wagon.
p.s. Forgot to mention the suspension. X7 ride is just the right amount of compromise between sportiness and comfort. If the GLE/GLS air suspensions feel just a bit too floaty, the X7 is perfect for you!
Have to acknowledge... never really considered X7/GLS, believing those are larger than we need. We've been comfortable with the volume of our 2019 X5; only a few times would have a few more cubic feet been useful. However, my wife and I yesterday reminded ourselves of our next door neighbors’ near-fatal, no-fault, accident earlier this year. They were in a Honda sedan, and a Lexus SUV didn’t stop at a light moving 35 mph, at an oblique angle that was effectively a head-on collision. Horrible, horrible, life-changing injuries. Thinking now,,,,, best protection against such random acts of stupidity is being in the larger vehicle. Got me thinking, GLS, X7.
Sneaking suspicion this will come down for me to a decision between the GLE 450 and the GLS 450. If it comes down to that choice, my big question will be: will the GLS be an underpowered cruise ship versus a more nimble and presumably more fun-to-drive GLE? Sometimes, these things can be hard to fully flesh out during the confines of a test drive or two. Opinions? (Admittedly going off topic here)
Sneaking suspicion this will come down for me to a decision between the GLE 450 and the GLS 450. If it comes down to that choice, my big question will be: will the GLS be an underpowered cruise ship versus a more nimble and presumably more fun-to-drive GLE? Sometimes, these things can be hard to fully flesh out during the confines of a test drive or two. Opinions? (Admittedly going off topic here)
Haven't test driven the GLS 450 BUT I forgot to mention that X7 40d feels underpowered on highway. Maybe someone can chip in if the petrol engine 40i would be a bit more capable accelerating in 60-90 mph range. So if you need to overtake a lot on single highways that might be an issue for you. But as you are not looking at the X7, it doesn't really matter I guess. GLS seems to give less bang-for-buck than the X7. Just my 0.02.
Yet another good point you raise... overtaking on single-lane highways. This DD will in fact be used on such roadways, and overtaking (regrettably) is a frequent scenario. Hence the question/reservation about the GLS 450. It has the heft of the GLE 580 and X5 M60i, without the 500+ hp. I suppose one answer then becomes the GLS 580, but then we get into the issues of higher initial cost and ongoing cost to keep it hydrated.
Did I mention that I want my cake and to be able to eat it too?
Haha, that is indeed a tough one. I would still suggest to at least consider and/or try out the X7 M60i, should be a bit more reasonably priced than similarly specced GLS 580.
Saw a brand new M3 touring today with a baby seat at the back and thought at first instance "man, this guy has got it all figured out "
Perhaps consider slotting in the AMG GLE53 ... it sits in between the 450 and 580 in several of your parameters ...
@iridium18 Um...um...mmmmmm...... You may have just hit the nail on the head with the GLE53 idea.
Power (400+ hp), mileage (respectable), curb weight (good heft), cargo (best in class), interior (integrated displays), exterior (nicest 22" wheel choices of any option, IMO), priced in line with other options under consideration... all seem to thread my needle. As an E63 owner, I just need to make sure the ride quality is suitable for a DD. My wife, who is not a driving enthusiast, will be the principal driver.
06-21-2024, 11:16 AM
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