hello everyone,

(cross posted across few forums)

I am cross shopping mid range performance SUVs and I have the options as stated in the subject (X5/X6 m50i, GLE 53, SQ8, Cayenne S).

I did test drive all of these cars. Due to limited availability in the dealer lot, I couldn't do a fair comparison between them as not all cars had equivalent performance options loaded. For instance, GLE coupe is the only car which had dynamic package while SQ8 had sport air suspension and rear wheel steering as standard. X5/6 and Cayenne S didn't have any dynamic driving options. Obviously I found GLE coupe to be the best driver car as it felt super agile, small, sounded good and fast enough (thanks to AMG dynamic package).

While X5/X6 felt fast and had great V8 sound, it left me feeling bit floaty and large. I am trying to find a test drive one with the dynamic package to do fair comparison. Here are my questions:

1) What are your thoughts on these cars? driving experience, quality, features, comfort etc.
2) In this forum, there has been mention of various reliability issues (especially with 48V mild hybrid system). How are the recent model year cars? Similar issues or any new reliability issues? I can't afford to have a situation of the car being towed often as my other cars are 2-seaters.

If you are interested to know more about my experience with SQ8, and Cayenne S, read below.

1) Cayenne S would cost me at least 25K more if I had to option it to be equivalent to other cars. The car I test drove didn't have any dynamic options so it felt pretty normal and didn't have any drama (especially the exhaust note) though the overall driving was good, especially steering.I may have to pass this as I would rather get a 63s AMG or X5/X6 M for the same price.
2) SQ8 is also priced slightly over X5/X6/GLE 53. It sits right in the middle between AMG 53 and 63s and X5/X6 m50i and X5/X6M. I really liked the look and quality though it is getting bit outdated. I think the car drives really well even and sounds great, even without the dynamic package. This is still under consideration.

 

I would get the SQ8 or BMW. I had that BMW. Yes, the suspension is floaty in comfort but I coded it so it stayed in sports mode and it was great and mind-boggling 0-60 under 4 seconds fast. I had no major issues with it unlike this thing. I like the SQ8 a lot as well. I almost got it in fact but my order got delayed and I didn’t feel like waiting. It looks the best out of all of these in my opinion and is equally as fast. The Porsche is just overpriced imo.

The GLE 53 is not fast. Of course I knew that going into it. The suspension is bone-jarring stiff and in hindsight, I actually prefer the X5’s overall feel because in both cases I’m not trying to drive these things like a rally car and the X5 insulates much better.

I’ve had nothing but problems with this thing. I’m not saying you will as there are many people driving it without issues, but in all my life, I’ve never purchased a new car that had so many issues so soon after purchasing it. They run the gamut from dangerous LKA malfunctions to buzzing headliners.

 

Price seems important to you, and you are comparing apples-to-oranges with the vehicle specifications, which you clearly stated by indicated the comparison was not fair.

Are you ordering new, buying new from dealer inventory, or buying pre-owned? Pre-owned prices are dropping like a stone now, it's a good time to be a pre-owned buyer. There are in-warranty cars with normal or lower mileage available for much better prices compared to 6-12 months ago.

Will you dump the vehicle after lease termination, and before factory warranty expires? Will you own the vehicle after factory warranty expires, and what is your plan to purchase (or not) a third party extended warranty?

To do a proper technical comparison, evaluate like-equipped cars and the output parameter is price. You know how this will end: Porsche will be most expensive, followed by MB then Audi or BMW.

Comparison set 1: Cayenne S, GLE53, X5 M50i, SQ8 - or -
Comparison set 2: Cayenne Turbo, GLE63, X5M or RSQ8

The vehicles need to be equipped with the same driving systems, e.g. air suspension, rear axle steer, active roll control, torque vectoring, performance exhaust, sport chrono. Then you will have a basis to make apples-to-apples statements.

Porsches in this comparison set are the most custom-spec'd. vehicle. No two Porsches are alike, because of the way they are configured and ordered. The other brands, while offering options, are more package-based and therefore have more option consistency in vehicles found on dealers' lots.

Not many people describe a Porsche as numb. Numb is a subjective word, and you are entitled to use it. Be sure when you apply that label, you have evaluated equally-equipped vehicles. Additional subjective factors when you drive a car are color and leather/interior feature. If you drive a car with your preferred color combination and nice interior, it influences your view on the rest of the vehicle.

A word on 48V systems: avoid them. MB has had nearly 4 years of teeth gnashing with their 48V system. Even Porsche has had problems with theirs, which interestingly is used only with PDCC (active roll control). 48V in the automotive industry is a temporary solution - it will be phased out for higher voltage systems. 48V will be an orphan system in the not too distant future and getting sympathy and service support could be a nightmare down the road.

Are you attempting to find the vehicle with the highest feature/option content and performance, at a price point?

 

More on 48V systems from AVL, a leader in powertrain engineering. Note the report is from 2014, almost 9 years ago. This is an eternity ago in the auto industry. The favorable and supportive comments in the report are understandable from AVL, because their livelihood (revenue and profit) comes from car companies who pay AVL to develop such systems.

https://gansystems.com/wp-content/up...id_Systems.pdf

Note that 48V is used for two main reasons:
1. is not "high voltage"
2. for propulsion and "high consumers" e.g. active roll control

High voltage is the proper solution for propulsion, 48V is simply a cautionary stepping stone until the industry figured out high voltage (400V-800V). High voltage is becoming commonplace and the necessary safeguards and reliability approaches are being developed. 48V will fade away because it is a tweener system.

 

48v is not a "stepping stone," its chosen because of the 72v limit, above which additional passenger and First Responder protection measures are required.

Since 48v systems can reach as high as 60v during charging, it's as high a voltage that can be used without those 72v measures.

The presentation shown above DOES NOT claim that 48v is a temporary solution. It shows why it's used and the advantages.

48v IS NOT a propulsion voltage - it's an accessory and High Current system, as stated above. 48v allows smaller gauge wiring throughout, saving copper and, importantly, lots of weight.

The "temporary" system is 12v, largely because of Legacy components. Most accessories such as window and fan motors etc. are 12v, and the supply chain exists.

​​​​I'll bet this 2014 PowerPoint was a failed attempt to garner Euro mild hybrid business, that ended up going to Grohmann Engineering, The one that Tesla bought to essentially steal M-B and BMW's battery and production technologies!🙁

Yes, propulsion favors higher voltage, but 800v cars still have A/C and window motors. They will likely become 48v as well.

The 72v limit is a practical and safe limit, so regulations requiring it are likely to remain

 

Thanks for the comments, as always. We must attend different meetings.

 

Actually the paper you presented supports my statement, not yours.

 

Thank you so much. This worries me a bit. I don't want to be the unlucky one like you :-(

 

Great detailed reply. You are right. I am not being fair to Porsche and BMW as they were not loaded similar to GLE 53 Coupe. To be fair, I was also expecting too much of Cayenne as I own a Porsche 2 seater which I love the most. Thanks for your inputs on 48V.

BTW - I updated my comments about "numb" above. I may be too hard on Porsche.

I wouldn't mind buying a lightly used car as I have done in the past but I won't own a family car without factory warranty so I either switch cars before the warranty expires or extend it through the dealer.

 

Get at least 20" wheels, no matter which you choose.

The 48v battery is in the back of my mind, but I'm glad it didn't dissuade me from the AMG 53.
The Active Ride Control sets it apart from the others within $25,000 IMO. Handling AND ride.

My second choice is a Cayenne. All others will probably feel heavy in comparison.
Without the Active Ride Control, the Cayenne would be my top pick.

The RSQ8 sort of makes up for it with rear steer, but its a Coupe. The V8 has a nice sound, but it's still a large car.

Regarding reliability, since I can't predict future problems, Dealer Service experience is top of my list.

If a car has a 5% failure rate, it would be historic, but you'd stil have 95% chance of being problem free.
And the highest rated car can have multiple failures.

Consider your risk tolerance, but don't regret missing one that makes you smile when you walk out to the garage.

Keep us posted. Several former owners have discussed why they made their choice, and it's good to hear from them.

 

I personally believe the 48-Volt battery should be a concern. I think there’s certainly enough “smoke” around that thing to make me question its reliability. I wouldn’t feel comfortable taking this thing on long road trips. I’m sure I’m not alone in that sentiment.

 

Very interesting. In Audi forum, I also found that Q7/8 cars to have 48V and there has been many reported issues:

https://www.audiworld.com/forums/aud...ction-3012848/

 

Thanks for showing that.
It looks like those Audi problems are related to the generator, not the battery, although some batteries were killed by the generator.

Audi uses a BSG, Belt-driven Starter Generator, unlike Mercedes ISG, Inline Starter Generator. And the other problems don't seem related to a battery.

Thinking about the Audi OP's description, it DOES appear that there's noise in the CAN-BUS, which could be an errant BSG or something like poor shielding or bad grounds.

I don't think the Audi problems can be easily related to the battery. Something else is going on.

 

For a reference to reliability, my GLE53 ('22 with less than 2500 miles) is currently in the shop due a suspension failure message I received. Seems like there have been some issues plaguing the GLE53's suspension components. I took my car to the shop on 11/18 and it's still there because the dealer had to get in touch with MB HQ for assistance. MB is aware of the issues, but not the exact cause and sent over new sensors that monitor height/leveling that might fix it. Hopefully that will address the issue, but I have heard of another member with similar issues and ended up exercising the lemon law.

 

Wow. This is a shame to see so many issues for such a stunning car. I really liked it and now it looks like I will be taking a risk if I buy this. 😒

 

You are right. I think the problem Audi has is with something related to software that messed up the starter generator and not the 48V battery itself. Based on the TSB, it looks like it may not be happening for 2022 and later year model. Need to validate.

 

Do you have the Dynamic Plus Package with the AMG ARC, or the standard air?
Do you remember the specific message?

​​​​​​I'm interested because I got a software update on my active sway bars at the 20,000 mile service.

I'll be following your experience. Keep us posted on what you find out.

 

I have the standard air suspension. The error I did receive was in the dash stating, "Suspension Failure. Please do not drive over 50mph". I wish I took a picture of the error but exited out of the message too quickly.

 

Everyone - I wanted to update this thread as I finally had the opportunity to test drive a X5 m50i with dynamic package. In short, it is not as good as GLE 53 AMG with dynamic package. GLE 53 felt smaller, handled better and had the least body roll around corners. While I had more power from the V8 in X5, I wish it handled as good as GLE 53. I did like the overall comfort and luxury of X5. X5's interior with Merino leather was outstanding. Almost all the interior spaces are soft to touch (including the door storage area).