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So why I get better acceleration with new oil?
It's no different than washing and waxing your car. Then you go for a spirited drive. The car is faster, handles better, brakes better, idles more smoothly, and has a better exhaust sound.
Open your mind. With the oil additives in a less deteriorated state you get better acceleration. If you change your oil every 500 miles you should be able to out-drag 911 Porsches and 488 Ferraris, at the stop lights, based on my flawed calculations.
Sorry, but the prevailing wind will make a bigger difference than the age of the oil! Get yourself one of those phone apps that measures acceleration and prove it to yourself, if it matters.
The friction modifier additives do indeed "wear out".
I don't doubt that. However, to feel that in the seat of your pants (or even with highly accurate acceleration monitoring equipment) well, I see absolutely no possibility of it. It may be comforting to think that but...
E Coupe C207, ML W166, ML W164, Sprinter 1500/144, W111 SB220 Fintail(s), A5 chassis Beetle 5+5
If the FM made no difference, why are they used to begin with?
I think maybe take a look at "API Starburst" oils that came about with extra FM additives, and what claims they made with their advent.
Let's reword it a little and see if it makes more sense. To say "seat of the pants" might be too high of a standard, and measurement of 0-60 time with new oil might be a) subjective or b) lost in the static. No I think a fair claim and corresponding methodology would be to see if a MPG gain can be accomplished with new oil, or Starburst oil.
A lightly loaded engine over a longer duration than accelerating 0-60 will give more granular data. For sure in this case we will see a gain, and extra 1-2 mpg is easily attainable. Could 1mpg pay for the oil change itself, well maybe break-even and considering you need an oil change eventually anyway, sure more MPG with fresh oil / extra FM or even lighter oils like 20 weight or the 0w-16 in my wife's new RAV4. Everybody knows this and these products wouldn't even exist without a benefit. Hell, even race cars use thin oil to qualify and thicker oil for the race.
So if you can't "feel it" in your ***, it's not sensitive enough.
Last edited by Audi Junkie; 06-16-2022 at 10:37 PM.
I didn't see anyone here state friction modifiers make no difference.
No idea what race cars have to do with this. Thinner or thicker oils are not the same thing as friction modifiers even if they can result in some similar things happening. Race car engines are re-built on a regular basis and qualifying doesn't last nearly as long as a race. It seems a peculiar addition to the argument you make. I think everybody here already realizes a thinner fluid is easier to stir or pump because there is less drag. Very different compromises are acceptable for a race engine versus the engine for a normal road car.
Originally Posted by Audi Junkie
If the FM made no difference, why are they used to begin with?
I think maybe take a look at "API Starburst" oils that came about with extra FM additives, and what claims they made with their advent.
Let's reword it a little and see if it makes more sense. To say "seat of the pants" might be too high of a standard, and measurement of 0-60 time with new oil might be a) subjective or b) lost in the static. No I think a fair claim and corresponding methodology would be to see if a MPG gain can be accomplished with new oil, or Starburst oil.
A lightly loaded engine over a longer duration than accelerating 0-60 will give more granular data. For sure in this case we will see a gain, and extra 1-2 mpg is easily attainable. Could 1mpg pay for the oil change itself, well maybe break-even and considering you need an oil change eventually anyway, sure more MPG with fresh oil / extra FM or even lighter oils like 20 weight or the 0w-16 in my wife's new RAV4. Everybody knows this and these products wouldn't even exist without a benefit. Hell, even race cars use thin oil to qualify and thicker oil for the race.
So if you can't "feel it" in your ***, it's not sensitive enough.
I changed oil every 3000 miles through the 70s and into the 80s. With the advent of synthetic oils in the mid 80s I looked at some technical presentations that convinced me to try 7500 miles. The synthetic manufacturers were claiming 25,000 miles, which I just wasn’t believing for a number of reasons. In the early 2000s my MB owners manual said 13,000 miles. I tried it and it didn’t affect the life of the engine. I’ve used 10,000 mile changes on all my other MBs because they saw fit to reduce the mileage recommendation. I drive a lot and keep fuel consumption and mileage records for every fill up. Fuel mileage changes are a clear indicator of impending component failure. I don’t see anything that indicates mileage on 0-2000 mile oil is any different than on 8000-10,000 mile oil.
BTW-The oil selection chart in the owner’s manual with the note to select oil based on the lowest expected temperature is useless in SE Texas as 86 F is below our nighttime temperature in the summer. I select oil based on the manufacturer’s available API test data, not their advertising.
I will never buy a car from anyone following long oci. Those first owners kill it and make the cars terrible to deal with. As we know, first owners are persuaded heavily by marketing often trading cars very frequently and not worrying about the true life of the car.. As a second owner, it’s my job to keep the car going forever and Mercedes’ recs do not help with that.
I change oil based on engine noise and feel and this is 3k miles at the latest on a hard driven e63. The oil is dirty and worn out.
next we are going to hear that old oil in a fryer is better than newer more frequent oil.
There is no argument other than cost. ANY or ALL used oil has wear and contaminates. Tight engines like this less.
E Coupe C207, ML W166, ML W164, Sprinter 1500/144, W111 SB220 Fintail(s), A5 chassis Beetle 5+5
Originally Posted by MBKLUE
yikes... you seem to be winning arguments, in your mind, that don't actually exist.
Except I gave you multiple examples of lube formulas affecting engine output. You just don't understand. Not a problem, I can tell you don't actually have a technical or science background. More likely a teacher or in the food service industry.
E Coupe C207, ML W166, ML W164, Sprinter 1500/144, W111 SB220 Fintail(s), A5 chassis Beetle 5+5
Funny how a lot of people cling to the owner's manual as the Bible of maintenance schedules. No only are those services a MAXIMUM interval to suit low-ball owners, it doesn't tell the whole story when overseas use different parameters, without the constraints of EPA mandates about oil visc and so forth.
I'm dealing with Toyota service now, and every brand has a flavor of owner with different biases and understanding of lube service. People go nuts over the 0w-16 oils, love them or hate them. Certainly there's room for 0w-16 among different lube grades; granny drivers in wintertime, but the manual actually cautions against high speed driving with it! An oil so good, you can't drive fast on it! Just another example of knucklehead owners who fall victim to the EPA rule of only one single grade being acceptable. It puts owners in a pickle, because of fear and misunderstanding....but also lack of info. Switch to Toyota manuals from overseas, you see all different grades, up to 15w-40, like our old school Mercedes manuals.
But it's not science or engineering letting them down, it's lack of info caused by EPA. Fwiw, I'm using 0w-40 in summer and 0w-20 in winter. That is related to visc, and maybe off topic, but it's an example of the stunted thinking that comes from clinging too closely to the owners manual. As it applies to OCI, it's the same deal, people see one number in the manual and think it's the only solution. I do it the easy way and change every 6 months. With five MB right now, plus the Toyota for only two drivers, I am doing all different change schedules; 6 months, a year and even two years in my Metris.
fwiw, FM additives do wear out, this is widely known and understood in tribology circles, but here on MB World we get know-it-all posters who are actually hearing and thinking about these subjects for the very first time. So, understandably they struggle with the topic, which is fine....but even when it's explained to them like they are in 8th grade, they get nothing out of the conversation. If they only knew how dumb they would sound in a real forum with their lame arguments....Argument From Ignorance....
This subject has been covered before. I don't see the merit in discussing it with hotheads who have never done any used oil labwork themselves, and are unable to process the information provided.
E Coupe C207, ML W166, ML W164, Sprinter 1500/144, W111 SB220 Fintail(s), A5 chassis Beetle 5+5
Originally Posted by Odd Piggy
10,000 km ~ 6250 miles
15,000 km ~ 9375 miles
Yes. A very entertaining subject. Do what works for you.
3000 miles is not practical for me because I would be changing oil every 5-6 weeks.
Yes, we have different drivers with different OC requirements. Long distance driving in fair weather can run it out to 10k without issue or "risk". Because their long drives heat the oil high enough, for long enough, to burn off excess water and fuel from the oil. Short trip drives, which is prevalent here in the Wyoming Valley, are driving sometimes under a mile before their engine cools down again. Old oil + water and fuel mixed and warmed = yuck.
So the best advice I can think of is to do 6 month changes. Timed intervals allow for both driving styles. The one who puts 10k on in 6 months is fine, as well as the person driving only a few 1000 miles of short trips in 6 months. If you drive under say 6000 to 7000 a year, (depending on the engine type) one change is all you need. Also it's nice not to count down the miles till a change, with a made-up number in your head. Also no need to change in the middle of winter, as May Day and Halloween dates let you bridge it over winter. Best of all, a change of visc for the seasons too.
we get know-it-all posters who are actually hearing and thinking about these subjects for the very first time. So, understandably they struggle with the topic, which is fine....but even when it's explained to them like they are in 8th grade, they get nothing out of the conversation. If they only knew how dumb they would sound in a real forum with their lame arguments....Argument From Ignorance.....
I find it difficult to take seriously, the thoughts and comments of such an angry and seemingly troubled person. What you surmise about my background speaks volumes to me. You may not be quite what you think you are.
Originally Posted by Audi Junkie
Except I gave you multiple examples of lube formulas affecting engine output. You just don't understand. Not a problem, I can tell you don't actually have a technical or science background. More likely a teacher or in the food service industry.
While this forum can get technical, none of us know what the qualifications of other posters are. It’s social media, so let’s try to not make it anti-social.
The old tribology word popped up in one of the replies. Hopefully it indicates an offering of useful information and not a claim to the intellectual high ground. Tribology is the study of surfaces in interaction.
There has been a lot of good information shared here.
E Coupe C207, ML W166, ML W164, Sprinter 1500/144, W111 SB220 Fintail(s), A5 chassis Beetle 5+5
Another risk factor with extended oil changes, is the possibility of contamination by coolant or intake dirt ingestion or failed PCV valve operation. Many times, a "sludged" engine isn't caused by the oil service per se, rather an outside issue. So if you go forever and a day on your oil change, not only are the contaminates staying in longer, it's less likely the source of the contamination will be discovered and repaired in a timely manner.
Just another factor to consider in a scenario where owners need to be self-aware, and not rely on external guidance. I just snagged a C207 and at 77k, with one owner, it's had 7500 miles it's whole life, which is awesome. M276 should run on any oil in the store, even more so with the M272. I usually go with high miles oils, like the thicker range Mobil 1 5w-30 HM or Maxlife. 1000 miles per quart oil capacity is a good rule of thumb for ocis
Last edited by Audi Junkie; 06-20-2022 at 04:17 PM.
Look we drive cars with one of the most reliable engines MB has made in a long time. oil changes are important but the 3k change is BS. there is no real way to tell without having your oil tested. Someone in Montana will need a different interval that someone in TX.
no changing your oil or putting additives in it will not make it faster. If it does than you have not change your oil in so long that it turned to tar and you are F'ed anyway.
Fact is the are grocery getting, pavement pounding, slow, small suvs. they are not fast, they are not high performance cars and never will be. Spending tons of money on "special" fluids is going to net you nothing but a smaller wallet.
Non of us will likely have these cars long enough to notice one bit of difference between a 3k, 5k, 7k, 10k even oil change.
I drive what is considers extreme conditions, All city driving in Chicago where it can go to -20 and you don’t warm up your car fully. Yes 3000 might be excessive but my oil gets black in winter fast. Motors are expensive, oil is cheap. I’d rather go the oil change route than the motor change expense. An oil analysis doesn’t show if the anti wear package is intact!
06-16-2022, 07:05 AM
