EWL5

I can understand the argument against AM but many folks swear by satellite radio, especially if they've moved to a different state and still want to follow their favorite sports team!

Just like with anything else, a routine can always be established where the car reviewer simply goes through a list to rate the audio system such as:

RMS Power
Can play discrete MCH audio files via USB (i.e. FLAC)? - yes on the GLS's standard Burmester audio but no for the X3 HiFi!
Number of Speakers
Subwoofer included? - I had them in my TLX A-Spec but not in my current X3 and GLS (replaced by Frontbass tech)!
Tuned by Professional or Dirac? - Elliot Scheiner had been involved w/Acura for many years but the relationship may end w/the change to Bang & Olufsen

If I'm not mistaken, Savage Geese sometimes includes the frequency response graphs in their video reviews!
I'm sure I can create a longer list but doesn't seem like we have many audiophiles here.

mikapen

I don't think audiophiles would put much stock in a car reviewers opinions.

Frequency response and other statistics don't tell much about the sound quality.

The Burmester 3D is darn well worth five grand. It does things that only top notch home theaters can do.

An audiophile will bring his own demo files, sit in the car and listen.

My biggest mistake in purchasing my 21, was to skip the burmester 3D because it sent me over the 100K mark. Bad decision on my part.

EWL5

This is all hyperbole and doesn't justify the nearly $5k investment! In what way does it approach the "top notch home theaters"?

If you had mentioned the 3D system has 29 speakers (including subwoofer) mated to a 27-channel amp w/1210W (dedicated SW amp is 400W) vs the standard Burmester w/13 speakers mated to a 9-channel amp (590W) and no sub, then you at least have my attention!

How does the "VIP seat function" work for individual seats on the 3D system? Why the hell is Vehicle Noise Compensation (VNC) and possibly MCH FLAC file support no longer standard in MY24 GLS (just going by the MY24 Ordering Guide)?

These are the type of details only a professional reviewer can provide!

SW20S

As an audiophile I'm surprised you can even listen to XM, the quality is awful. You can also stream XM over CarPlay, so having XM is not necessary. Quality is better with streaming too (still not good).

SW20S

Gotta pay to play...that just what these upgraded systems cost in all the competitors. In the S Class its over $6K!

EWL5

I don't listen to satellite radio. I read reviews from customers and know some threw a fit when it was removed from the GLC. I'm just illustrating that these are the type of things that should be covered in a car review!

At home, I recently dialed in a Dirac Live room correction on my AVR and can listen to spatial audio in the "Dolby Atmos" bubble I created! Too bad that experience can't be replicated in a car (or can it? is that what the "VIP seat function" is meant for? that's what I want to know in a review!).

mikapen

Those specs do not tell what the system sounds like.

The VIP seat is a magnificent sound application. All the sounds are phase aligned at the selected seat.
It's like the Audessy phase and time alignment in a home theater, only better because the sound is tailored to the interior space.

If you buy specs, it's up to you if to decide who makes the better claim, kind of like the ridiculous truck towing claims earlier this century.

I listen and deploy my funds accordingly. It rivals my home theater, which has about $15k of sound equipment alone.

EWL5

The specs at least gets the conversation started!

Audyssey detects but does not correct for phase (Dirac does). Official response here:
https://support.denon.com/app/answer...t%20an%20error.

I started out w/$15k worth of equipment in 2005 and have been adding/replacing equipment ever since.
Sorry to bore everyone else and apologies for going off topic!

SW20S

To me the audio system is easily tested, just plug in my music and listen...

mikapen

It's the only way, really.

People who are very interested in sound often bring in their own source material, sit and listen.
My Porsche dealer tries to have one car with a high-end Burmester on the floor at all times, so people can do just that.

Fortunately / unfortunately that's where I got hooked. I had one in my '20, and miss it a LOT.

SW20S

If I were ordering a car, I would pop for the upgraded Burmester for sure, issue is when you buy off the lot like I do its hard to find one with it because dealers don't order it due to cost.

EWL5

Having the upgraded audio on a floor model to demo is the exception and not the norm. If it's at your dealership, chances are it was someone's custom order that fell through.
When I was cross-shopping the X7, the local dealer's showroom car had the useless $2100 crystal headlights but not the Bowers & Wilkins diamond surround sound system!

Failing an in-person audition of the upgraded sound, reading/watching about the audio aspects of the car in a car review is the next best thing!

MDMercedesGuy

Oh yea, it's still ridiculous for all of them. My sticker was already $106K - I went back and forth on it, but I just could not justify the increase to myself. Part of it is that I have very bad tinnitus and there are some days where I just cannot tolerate music at any volume over midway.

Funny that Audyssey is being mentioned - I'm running a somewhat ancient Denon AVR-4311ci receiver and all Paradigm speakers in my theater room here and cannot run any of the Audyssey settings otherwise I get an uncomfortable pressure sensation in my ears, so I am wondering if that is all related.

EWL5

Paradigm speakers are known to be "bright" so if you have sensitivity to frequencies greater than 10kHz, you are better off customizing the target curve to roll off much earlier as Audyssey is probably trying to maintain a flat curve up to 20kHz (Klipsch and their trademark horn tweeters are also "bright")! I can't speak for your older 4311 receiver but Denon receivers that retail for >$1500 these days allow you to run either Audyssey or Dirac Live (paid upgrade) and customize the target curve to taste.

We can take this offline or I can direct you to the appropriate AVS or ASR thread to continue this conversation!

mikapen

I think you misunderstand "Phase alignment." It's NOT reversed wiring - it's about the arrival of all signals, from each speaker, at the ear at the same time. Your link describes it well.
Audyssey DOES do Phase Alignment, also called Time Alignment. It's a sophisticated thing that's difficult to achieve, and it varies incrementally from seating position to another.
The fancy Burmester does it, and it's stellar.
Selecting the front two seats puts the front row in alignment - focusing on the Driver's seat will teach the driver exactly what Time Alignment sounds (and feels) like. It's a rare experience. Even better than 39 speakers and 27,670 watts (advertised, haha) boombox.

I know. I was once a paid listener for a speaker manufacturer and later an electronic theater organ company. I majored in acoustics.
Most people have never experienced phase alignment.
Like a good wine, once you get the taste, everything else falls short. An expensive habit, or in my case, a need, because un-aligned sound makes me cringe.

There's a forum on MBWorld that is about audio. It's occasionally active, but a better idea might be to pay attention to owners.

Dealers who care about their inventory will have a big Burmester in many of their vehicles, not just left there by somebody who mistakenly ordered it. It sells cars.

If people like good sound, they will find it hard to resist, once listening. The five grand I "saved" will force me into another car, with the associated depreciation hit. It was a stupid decision on my part.

EWL5

Yes, I confused "Absolute Phase" with "Phase Alignment". Although I agree with you now that Audyssey does perform Phase Alignment, it is not synonymous w/Time Alignment as indicated in the bolded portion above. This article defines the difference and gives good examples:
https://www.prosoundweb.com/time-phase-alignment/

I now understand why so many more drivers are included in the 3D package as it's not enough for the sound to arrive at the same time, the contributions from each of the tweeters and woofers need to also be phase aligned w/respect to the crossover!
Feedback on the 3D sound system was what I was looking for and you gave great selling points of why it's worth the additional money. Often I'm alone in the car and don't want the interior to be an echo chamber and desire the audio to be focused only on my seating position!

Mercedes and most of their SAs do a horrible job upselling audio and it takes a random person in a random thread of a random forum to explain the selling points! Thanks!

mikapen

That's also true in high end stereo stores, unfortunately.

Every once in awhile you find somebody who knows their business. I try to support them because I learn from them.

I think I have found a tire guy who fits that description, and I'm going to stick with him, as I have in the past.

I don't know anybody in the car business who is an audiophile.

SW20S

We have an incredible tire shop here owned and run by a family who are huge car people and know tires very well...people like that are hard to find

I had a subwoofer added to my S560 and I was surprised even the people at the well recommended audio shop I used lacked any passion or enthusiasm and had no insights or thoughts to offer me, just took my order.

EWL5

Audio is "Black Magic". Even when I was selling these things nearly 20 years ago, customers always gravitated towards video over audio. They would rather spend $5k on a big screen plasma than the equivalent amount in audio (avr, amp, speakers, etc).

Not too many sales folks know audio compared to an enthusiast, even if they work in the store for years!

SW20S

But you would think a shop that specialized in car audio would be more interested in putting together a car audio system.

EWL5

Depends on who you hire. I think the Pandemic has taught us that it's really hard to find good help these days! Just look at the reduced staffing in the service industry!

SW20S

It was a really well regarded shop. I asked for guidance and was clearly willing to spend more than I did, and I didn't really get any kind of expertise.

EWL5

It's really hard to sustain excellence in this day and age! Even the best of brands are somehow surviving on the fumes of their reputation alone!