Killed RX8
#27
I have seen literally hundrends of cars that the dealer said needed a new engine and when I did a compresion test guess what? Strong motor...It was always one of the issues I mentioned above. I saw two of these recently, one the dealer said the car had no power and needed new turbos and a new engine. Did a compression test 105 plus on all faces. Lose clamps on the turbo hoses and a snap clip on the turbo actuator fell off causing the second turbo not to come on line. The dealer wanted 15 grand, it was a friend so he bought me a steak.
Mazda did not allow us to rebuild the engine so they would replace the engine instead. If you were out of warranty....you were out of luck. The engine was @ $18,000 without turbos and a/c so we would send customers to a rotary specialist in Fort Worth. Man, the look on the customer's face when we told them they needed a engine!
FYI: Carbon lock doesn't cause engine failure unless the carbon is exsessive which is caused by an improperly running engine and that is very, very rare. All you do is start the engine and pour small amounts of water down the intake which "steam cleans" the faces and cleans out the carbon.
I have never seen a 40 or even a 60 thousand mile engine ruined by babying it or carbon lock. I've also seen modified tt rotaries run for over 150,000 miles.
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That wasn't the problem with the cars. Lack of power on a stock car is bad turbo couplers or loose clamps causing boost blow by. The culprit was the IC base hose. Another problem, other than most cars needing a vacuum hose job was failing soleniods.
I have seen literally hundrends of cars that the dealer said needed a new engine and when I did a compresion test guess what? Strong motor...It was always one of the issues I mentioned above. I saw two of these recently, one the dealer said the car had no power and needed new turbos and a new engine. Did a compression test 105 plus on all faces. Lose clamps on the turbo hoses and a snap clip on the turbo actuator fell off causing the second turbo not to come on line. The dealer wanted 15 grand, it was a friend so he bought me a steak.
There is a reason, the dealers couldn't even diagnose the cars non the less rebuild a rotary engine.
FYI: Carbon lock doesn't cause engine failure unless the carbon is exsessive which is caused by an improperly running engine and that is very, very rare. All you do is start the engine and pour small amounts of water down the intake which "steam cleans" the faces and cleans out the carbon.
I have never seen a 40 or even a 60 thousand mile engine ruined by babying it or carbon lock. I've also seen modified tt rotaries run for over 150,000 miles.
I have seen literally hundrends of cars that the dealer said needed a new engine and when I did a compresion test guess what? Strong motor...It was always one of the issues I mentioned above. I saw two of these recently, one the dealer said the car had no power and needed new turbos and a new engine. Did a compression test 105 plus on all faces. Lose clamps on the turbo hoses and a snap clip on the turbo actuator fell off causing the second turbo not to come on line. The dealer wanted 15 grand, it was a friend so he bought me a steak.
There is a reason, the dealers couldn't even diagnose the cars non the less rebuild a rotary engine.
FYI: Carbon lock doesn't cause engine failure unless the carbon is exsessive which is caused by an improperly running engine and that is very, very rare. All you do is start the engine and pour small amounts of water down the intake which "steam cleans" the faces and cleans out the carbon.
I have never seen a 40 or even a 60 thousand mile engine ruined by babying it or carbon lock. I've also seen modified tt rotaries run for over 150,000 miles.
-Matt
#29
Really? That's strange. Hmmmmm.
read here.............
http://www.rotarydynamics.ca/QA.html#Q1
True, heat can be a cause of apex seal failure. Oddly enough, so would a lack of driving and extended storage time; both causing carbon build up in an engine already known for it's "hot" and "cold" spot dirty combustion. (Rotaries are notorious for poor fuel economy and poor emissions) Hence low mileage RX-7 twin turbos coming in that have been babied my mid-life crisis men seemed to have had the most engine problems.........as I stated above.
read here.............
http://www.rotarydynamics.ca/QA.html#Q1
True, heat can be a cause of apex seal failure. Oddly enough, so would a lack of driving and extended storage time; both causing carbon build up in an engine already known for it's "hot" and "cold" spot dirty combustion. (Rotaries are notorious for poor fuel economy and poor emissions) Hence low mileage RX-7 twin turbos coming in that have been babied my mid-life crisis men seemed to have had the most engine problems.........as I stated above.
Heat causes apex seal failure which will show up as warping or flat spots on the seal. This doesn't happen in stock engines unless the OMP fails. On high reving non turbo cars the apex seal springs collapse over time and compression drops, neither are really issues on a stock FD. I already addressed the carbon build up which is about as rare as a ***** in church.
Actually most of us take the TSB's with a grain of salt or we modify their suggestions and give Mazda feedback.
Secondly, the site you listed is an independent rotary shop in Canada and those are not Mazda's TSB's.
Reading over their FAQ I don't know where to start. Put it this way, I wouldn't let them work on my 5 year old weed eater.
Usually it's a bad fuel relay pump issue on the second gens.
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w210 E55
That wasn't the problem with the cars. Lack of power on a stock car is bad turbo couplers or loose clamps causing boost blow by. The culprit was the IC base hose. Another problem, other than most cars needing a vacuum hose job was failing soleniods.
I have seen literally hundrends of cars that the dealer said needed a new engine and when I did a compresion test guess what? Strong motor...It was always one of the issues I mentioned above. I saw two of these recently, one the dealer said the car had no power and needed new turbos and a new engine. Did a compression test 105 plus on all faces. Lose clamps on the turbo hoses and a snap clip on the turbo actuator fell off causing the second turbo not to come on line. The dealer wanted 15 grand, it was a friend so he bought me a steak.
I have seen literally hundrends of cars that the dealer said needed a new engine and when I did a compresion test guess what? Strong motor...It was always one of the issues I mentioned above. I saw two of these recently, one the dealer said the car had no power and needed new turbos and a new engine. Did a compression test 105 plus on all faces. Lose clamps on the turbo hoses and a snap clip on the turbo actuator fell off causing the second turbo not to come on line. The dealer wanted 15 grand, it was a friend so he bought me a steak.
FYI: Carbon lock doesn't cause engine failure unless the carbon is exsessive which is caused by an improperly running engine and that is very, very rare. All you do is start the engine and pour small amounts of water down the intake which "steam cleans" the faces and cleans out the carbon.
Yellow R1 is correct.
Heat causes apex seal failure which will show up as warping or flat spots on the seal. This doesn't happen in stock engines unless the OMP fails. On high reving non turbo cars the apex seal springs collapse over time and compression drops, neither are really issues on a stock FD. I already addressed the carbon build up which is about as rare as a ***** in church.
Heat causes apex seal failure which will show up as warping or flat spots on the seal. This doesn't happen in stock engines unless the OMP fails. On high reving non turbo cars the apex seal springs collapse over time and compression drops, neither are really issues on a stock FD. I already addressed the carbon build up which is about as rare as a ***** in church.
And a quick fix was to put a switch on the fuel pump stop the fuel pump from dumping excessive fuel in the engine by toggling it while starting the engine.(hard start issues, that is)
Rotary engines are soon to be of the past. RX8's are currently having MANY issues at this time also. Maybe you two should apply for jobs with Mazda so you guys can show them how to do it "right"
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'93 RX-7, SLK55
So it sounds like you are a third party shop. I'm sure you have seen it all. But what you haven't seen is the warranty claims and how we fixed them. So you, in fact, did not see low mileage cars near or just out of warranty until I was through with them. Congratulations, your an expert rotary doctor and you know ALL the symptoms.......
Yup, you are the man. What the hell do those stupid Mazda engineers know anyways? Thank God, RX7 owners have you.
Really? Man, I'm glad you tools are telling me what happened to our customers. Do you rebuild rotaries in Texas? Anyways, customers did not feel the symptoms right away because they didn't drive them all the time....so when it became obvious, it was too late.
Since you haven't, it must not of happened. I mean, after all......you are the "rotary man"
You rotary guys really take offense to your engines having faults? Do I need to begin with HOW MANY PROBLEMS THEY HAVE HAD WITH THAT ENGINE COMPARED TO MAZDA'S OTHERS? Oh, that's right.....you have seen plenty with 150,000 miles. There's more ****** in church pal.
That is really funny you say that, because you wouldn't make it long as a Master Certified Tech. In fact, you would be fired once the car comes back during the Lemon Law proceedings. Techs must follow the TSB's to cover their asses, in case of law suits. Oh, that's right....you are smarter the engineers that designed the engine.
Correction, sparky....I never said what I posted was a TSB. I said TSB's are not agreeing with (yours also) Yellow R1's opinion.
And a quick fix was to put a switch on the fuel pump stop the fuel pump from dumping excessive fuel in the engine by toggling it while starting the engine.(hard start issues, that is)
Rotary engines are soon to be of the past. RX8's are currently having MANY issues at this time also. Maybe you two should apply for jobs with Mazda so you guys can show them how to do it "right"
Yup, you are the man. What the hell do those stupid Mazda engineers know anyways? Thank God, RX7 owners have you.
Really? Man, I'm glad you tools are telling me what happened to our customers. Do you rebuild rotaries in Texas? Anyways, customers did not feel the symptoms right away because they didn't drive them all the time....so when it became obvious, it was too late.
Since you haven't, it must not of happened. I mean, after all......you are the "rotary man"
You rotary guys really take offense to your engines having faults? Do I need to begin with HOW MANY PROBLEMS THEY HAVE HAD WITH THAT ENGINE COMPARED TO MAZDA'S OTHERS? Oh, that's right.....you have seen plenty with 150,000 miles. There's more ****** in church pal.
That is really funny you say that, because you wouldn't make it long as a Master Certified Tech. In fact, you would be fired once the car comes back during the Lemon Law proceedings. Techs must follow the TSB's to cover their asses, in case of law suits. Oh, that's right....you are smarter the engineers that designed the engine.
Correction, sparky....I never said what I posted was a TSB. I said TSB's are not agreeing with (yours also) Yellow R1's opinion.
And a quick fix was to put a switch on the fuel pump stop the fuel pump from dumping excessive fuel in the engine by toggling it while starting the engine.(hard start issues, that is)
Rotary engines are soon to be of the past. RX8's are currently having MANY issues at this time also. Maybe you two should apply for jobs with Mazda so you guys can show them how to do it "right"
I'd suggest you pipe down or you will be schooled shortly. I've seen it before on other forums (ie the RX-7 Forum). I'm trying to save you from forthcoming embarrasment pal, don't be an azz. And BTW, considering I'm a 40 yr old executive at a high tech firm in Silicon Valley, I don't think I'll be applying for a job at your former employer ("Mazda"). Cars are a hobby & if I did work for an automotive firm, it would not be for "Mazda" nor at the Dealership level (but thanks for the smokin' hot tip).
-Matt
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w210 E55
Pal, you have NO idea whom you are talking to. Fountain has built & ported over 1,000 blocks over the last 25 yrs (never had one come back/returned either). He runs CIRCLES around little Mazda techs. He is a freaking rotary Sensei & is consulted upon by rotary race shops routinely. He can/has diagnosed "exotic" rotary engine issues that other speed shops/tuners could not figure out (ceramic seal set clearing issues, tolerences, the effect on compression during cold/hot conditions taking into acount thermal coefficients of expansion of differing metalurgies, etc, etc). Diagnosing little stock 3rd gen issues are a JOKE.
Schooled shortly? Uh, sure. What can you guys say to change what I dealt with? Really? You're right, I was mistaken with my experiences.
Too late.
Hi Matt, I'm Anthony.
#33
So it sounds like you are a third party shop. I'm sure you have seen it all. But what you haven't seen is the warranty claims and how we fixed them. So you, in fact, did not see low mileage cars near or just out of warranty until I was through with them. Congratulations, your an expert rotary doctor and you know ALL the symptoms.......
That is really funny you say that, because you wouldn't make it long as a Master Certified Tech. In fact, you would be fired once the car comes back during the Lemon Law proceedings. Techs must follow the TSB's to cover their asses, in case of law suits. Oh, that's right....you are smarter the engineers that designed the engine.
Posting that link showed how little you knew about the engines.
Don't really care one way or another what happens to the RX-8 or the rotary engine, it's a hunk of iron that you put gas in. Why should I apply for a job when you were the paid hired help?
Last edited by Fountain; 04-26-2007 at 06:04 PM.
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At what point, do you and "karate rotary master" not understand my original post was based on what I dealt with at the dealership. I not talking about any Fast and Furious stage cars at the local rotary "tune" shop and what problems you have seen with YOUR engines. I'm talking about low mileage, non abused cars that where still under or right out of warranty; albeit--TEN years ago. You guys are talking about things that YOU have experienced. I'm talking about problems I've seen with around 7 cars in a two year time period. Not ALL twin turbo RX7's......just some. Congratulations you and fountain can rebuild + trick out a rotary engine.....because I can't. Nor can I attempt to work on one.
Schooled shortly? Uh, sure. What can you guys say to change what I dealt with? Really? You're right, I was mistaken with my experiences.
Too late.
First off, damn....your old. Second off, you're funny when you get defensive.
Hi Matt, I'm Anthony.
Schooled shortly? Uh, sure. What can you guys say to change what I dealt with? Really? You're right, I was mistaken with my experiences.
Too late.
First off, damn....your old. Second off, you're funny when you get defensive.
Hi Matt, I'm Anthony.
"Karate Rotary Master"? Please, put down the crack pipe & go play with your video games. You are obviously a little kid with minimal hands-on technical knowledge of the subject at hand (you were the ripe age of 19 when the FD was released for production back in '93?). Comical to say the least.
-Matt
Last edited by Yellow R1; 04-26-2007 at 06:06 PM.
#35
At what point, do you and "karate rotary master" not understand my original post was based on what I dealt with at the dealership. I not talking about any Fast and Furious stage cars at the local rotary "tune" shop and what problems you have seen with YOUR engines. I'm talking about low mileage, non abused cars that where still under or right out of warranty; albeit--TEN years ago. You guys are talking about things that YOU have experienced. I'm talking about problems I've seen with around 7 cars in a two year time period. Not ALL twin turbo RX7's......just some. Congratulations you and fountain can rebuild + trick out a rotary engine.....because I can't. Nor can I attempt to work on one.
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w210 E55
They know quite a bit as a matter of fact I have friends who are engineers that work at the Mazda Corp. headquarters in Irving. When I have technical issues I send them the parts and we try and figure out the cause...(I was the one who brought to Mazda's attention the apex seal warpage issues on the 3 piece seals) They don't use them at all...
2) Our fuel is environment friendly "formulated". Known for its poor fuel economy and its damaging carbon build up. In fact, 4.0 Ford motors have a special process bulletin that decarbons the pistons due to knocking noise caused by the tight clearance of the piston stroke. The formulated fuel also reduces horsepower.(different in DFW Texas then outskirt towns)
Yeah, funny stuff.
I'll repeat this again. Carbon lock isn't a cause of failure in a well maintained rotary engine. The only time you get carbon lock is when the engine hasn't been maintained and has high mileage. It's very rare. Dealers always blame the engine and the turbos for any problems that arise. It's usually neither but those are cash cow items and the mechanics were never trained correctly nor were they able to trouble shoot the problems with the car. There is a reason there are so many aftermarket rotary tuner shops for a very small number of cars.
Well maintained rotary engine is an oxymoron. If you follow the 30,000 mile fuel filter replacement (per Mazda)......you already probably ruined your engine after 60,000. Proper fuel delivery is crucial for that engine. Add that with not allowing the turbos to cool down (cooking engine oil) and repeat slow city driving with already known high carbon residue fuel......BAM. Rare? Not really under the circumstances I just listed.
No offense at all. I know the car had many problems, I don't believe Mazda should have released the car until they had the issues ironed out. The problems with the car were mainly vacuum hose issues, soloinod issues and fuel pulsation dampner problems not to mention knick knack stuff. The other problem was dealers and knuckle head service writers that knew nothing about the engine. Go to any RX-7 website and see what they say if you mention the word dealer.
Do you use flour or corn starch for your gravy?
Umm.....was this suppose to be the "schooling" that was coming to me? Yup, you win.
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w210 E55
Your point was well taken but I have been around rotary engines for over 25 years. I have seen the issues and warranty claims and problems from every year RX-7 that has exsisted...From both personal experience and from dealers, not to mention race teams and engineers at the other end. I have also owned every generation RX-7 Mazda has made. The main problem and I will say this again was the dealers and mechanics were never trained correctly on the 3rd gen cars. They would make warranty claims on problems that were easily fixed with hoses or solonids etc. You as a service writer had to take their word, unfortunatly. If they give you bad info and claims that leaves you with a bad taste as you went with what they had given you.
#38
1) Temperature.
2) Our fuel is environment friendly "formulated". Known for its poor fuel economy and its damaging carbon build up. In fact, 4.0 Ford motors have a special process bulletin that decarbons the pistons due to knocking noise caused by the tight clearance of the piston stroke. The formulated fuel also reduces horsepower.(different in DFW Texas then outskirt towns)
Yeah, funny stuff.
2) Our fuel is environment friendly "formulated". Known for its poor fuel economy and its damaging carbon build up. In fact, 4.0 Ford motors have a special process bulletin that decarbons the pistons due to knocking noise caused by the tight clearance of the piston stroke. The formulated fuel also reduces horsepower.(different in DFW Texas then outskirt towns)
Yeah, funny stuff.
Ok, you are wrong again. Come on that was funny and you know it.
True but the stock system on the car is very robust. The engine makes 255 hp @ the flywheel bone stock. The fuel system is good for roughly 380-400 hp. You can even run the injectors at 100% duty cycles which is unheard of and they operate fine. Mazda did a great job when it comes to that aspect of the car.
Rare just as I stated.
Money? I already have.
I don't know about schooling but I did point out some facts.
#39
Other then the part of bad taste, you have my respect. I'm not upset with Mazda, hell I love Mazda. I made a wicked good living from their problems in my teens/early twenties. As to your claim of bad info, maybe. But, read my above post. We had Mazda engineers visit our shop because of it.
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w210 E55
Sure is, Texas isn't the only state who uses re-formulated fuels and additives nor does Texas have tempature variations that are that are different than many states, especially surrounding states. Here's the kicker, I called my buddy who has a shop in the DFW area and asked him if there was any difference in carbon build up in the cars he was seeing when he was California then the cars he sees in now...NONE. Rotary engines burn much hotter than piston engines so carbon build up is rare as I stated. Fuel addatives and reformulated mixtures won't make a bit of a difference. What will as I have said earlier was an improperly running engine and also running synthetic oil.
Here is ANOTHER site stating carbon build causes apex seal failure. Why the denial? The truth is out there, and it needs to be told.
http://www.rotaryresurrection.com/ro...naldamage.html
Here is ANOTHER site stating storage can cause carbon to flake and jamming apex seal. look at question #9:
http://www.atkinsrotary.com/index.php?pag=8
Here is ANOTHER site talking about the common problem of carbon in a rotary and how it could cause apex seal failure:
http://www.rx7-uk.co.uk/
Here is ANOTHER site talking about...again....CARBON BUILD UP CAUSING ENGINE FAILURE @ 75,000 MILES :
http://uk.cars.yahoo.com/car-reviews...7-2002914.html
Here is one of the MANY forums talking about the issues that I stated...that of course Mr Fountain and Mr Leg Humper (yellow R1) state never really happens....carbon build up....some become creative and actually talk about modifying a system to de-carbon on a "regular" basis. Hmmmm....
http://www.rx7club.com/showthread.php?t=33778
But, giving credit where credit is do....it does mention your water vapor trick.
But what I don't get is your point to coming here.....you state
FYI: Carbon lock doesn't cause engine failure unless the carbon is excessive which is caused by an improperly running engine and that is very, very rare. All you do is start the engine and pour small amounts of water down the intake which "steam cleans" the faces and cleans out the carbon.
Me? How? I stated rotaries had problems with premature apex failure and we (dealership) told them they need a new engine....if not, go to a third party shop and have them "rebuild" it. What in the hell is your point? Because you:
1) Told me I was wrong with saying apex failure caused the problems we had with the cars. Really? Compression test and other results had to be given to customer before we could ask for $18,000. We tried, they said no....so we told them they can get it done cheaper elsewhere........
2) Told me carbon lock was rare to cause apex failure.Really? At what in the hell point do you know when the car was taken to my service department?
3) Told me that carbon was not a problem with the rotary engine. Really?
Strange, it seems a lot of people think differently. Why is it, only you know the "real" truth about rotaries and everyone else is "clueless"? From now on, you will be referred to as, ROTARY GOD. It was you, not Moses, that split the Red Sea. And ONLY YOU can, not Chuck Norris, slam a revolving door.
True but the stock system on the car is very robust. The engine makes 255 hp @ the flywheel bone stock. The fuel system is good for roughly 380-400 hp. You can even run the injectors at 100% duty cycles which is unheard of and they operate fine. Mazda did a great job when it comes to that aspect of the car.
The turbos are also water cooled so cool down isn't a huge problem like cars which have oil cooled turbos only. "Coking" of the oil in the turbos has never been an issue with the turbos because of their design. What causes the turbos to go is cracking of the exhaust manifold which takes 80,000 miles plus, especially at stock boost levels. The underhood tempatures after the car is shut down causes the vacuum hoses to become brittle and the soloniods to fail. The mechanics quickly blame the turbos because they don't have the proper training or know how to diagnos the problem. We used to trade high milage worn out turbos with "bad ones" from the dealer frequently. They always worked perfect.
My mid-life crisis crack struck a nerve with you and leg humper, didn't it.
What?
No, just YOUR facts.
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Looking back, I can defiantly see your point. Mazda techs were afraid to work on rotaries with the fear (and knowledge of) that Mazda will not assist nor help the tech fix the rotary engine internally. So, the tech had to state engine replacement was the only option. And that's why I stated we were allowed to outsource the repairs to independent shops. And that is where YOU are missing MY point. This was happening at the time of production.....not years later after you hobbyists picked apart the engine and researched its weaknesses. You and your leg humper (yellow R1) come on here trying to "defend" that something so simple as carbon build up will ruin (well, expensive repair) the rotary engine. It is funny how much time and effort you two are taking to disprove my comments when you guys are overlooking the fact that a 40K car can (and commonly so) need an engine prematurely. You two are talking up to and out of your asses to say it was "something else" that caused the failure. Okay, whatever.
You know, you and leg humper (yellow R1) are spending a lot of time and effort to "research" my accusations. Calling around? Thanks, I feel important now.
Here is ANOTHER site stating carbon build causes apex seal failure. Why the denial? The truth is out there, and it needs to be told.
http://www.rotaryresurrection.com/ro...naldamage.html
Here is ANOTHER site stating storage can cause carbon to flake and jamming apex seal. look at question #9:
http://www.atkinsrotary.com/index.php?pag=8
Here is ANOTHER site talking about the common problem of carbon in a rotary and how it could cause apex seal failure:
http://www.rx7-uk.co.uk/
Here is ANOTHER site talking about...again....CARBON BUILD UP CAUSING ENGINE FAILURE @ 75,000 MILES :
http://uk.cars.yahoo.com/car-reviews...7-2002914.html
Here is one of the MANY forums talking about the issues that I stated...that of course Mr Fountain and Mr Leg Humper (yellow R1) state never really happens....carbon build up....some become creative and actually talk about modifying a system to de-carbon on a "regular" basis. Hmmmm....
http://www.rx7club.com/showthread.php?t=33778
But, giving credit where credit is do....it does mention your water vapor trick.
But what I don't get is your point to coming here.....you state
Okay, I can buy that. But I said it was never caught and most likely too late when that brought it in to me. You state that carbon build up happens and give a technique to fix it and state it is rare for carbon build up to cause apex seal failure. Really? Everyone else states it is common for it to have carbon build up. Then you quote:
Now carbon build-up in general is rare? Well what is it? Make up your mind.
Me? How? I stated rotaries had problems with premature apex failure and we (dealership) told them they need a new engine....if not, go to a third party shop and have them "rebuild" it. What in the hell is your point? Because you:
1) Told me I was wrong with saying apex failure caused the problems we had with the cars. Really? Compression test and other results had to be given to customer before we could ask for $18,000. We tried, they said no....so we told them they can get it done cheaper elsewhere........
2) Told me carbon lock was rare to cause apex failure.Really? At what in the hell point do you know when the car was taken to my service department?
3) Told me that carbon was not a problem with the rotary engine. Really?
http://www.sportcompactcarweb.com/pr...t_2/index.html
Strange, it seems a lot of people think differently. Why is it, only you know the "real" truth about rotaries and everyone else is "clueless"? From now on, you will be referred to as, ROTARY GOD. It was you, not Moses, that split the Red Sea. And ONLY YOU can, not Chuck Norris, slam a revolving door.
You missed the boat on that one. I was talking about the importance of a properly flowing fuel system for the reliability of the rotary engine.
Just about EVERY forum out there (with turbo RX-7s) talk about the importance of proper cool down. (well, all turbo's actually) Once again, you are selecting whats important to your opinion.
Umm, no. Actually the one that gets Mazda in trouble every time they sell it to the public.
My mid-life crisis crack struck a nerve with you and leg humper, didn't it.
What?
No, just YOUR facts.
You know, you and leg humper (yellow R1) are spending a lot of time and effort to "research" my accusations. Calling around? Thanks, I feel important now.
Here is ANOTHER site stating carbon build causes apex seal failure. Why the denial? The truth is out there, and it needs to be told.
http://www.rotaryresurrection.com/ro...naldamage.html
Here is ANOTHER site stating storage can cause carbon to flake and jamming apex seal. look at question #9:
http://www.atkinsrotary.com/index.php?pag=8
Here is ANOTHER site talking about the common problem of carbon in a rotary and how it could cause apex seal failure:
http://www.rx7-uk.co.uk/
Here is ANOTHER site talking about...again....CARBON BUILD UP CAUSING ENGINE FAILURE @ 75,000 MILES :
http://uk.cars.yahoo.com/car-reviews...7-2002914.html
Here is one of the MANY forums talking about the issues that I stated...that of course Mr Fountain and Mr Leg Humper (yellow R1) state never really happens....carbon build up....some become creative and actually talk about modifying a system to de-carbon on a "regular" basis. Hmmmm....
http://www.rx7club.com/showthread.php?t=33778
But, giving credit where credit is do....it does mention your water vapor trick.
But what I don't get is your point to coming here.....you state
Okay, I can buy that. But I said it was never caught and most likely too late when that brought it in to me. You state that carbon build up happens and give a technique to fix it and state it is rare for carbon build up to cause apex seal failure. Really? Everyone else states it is common for it to have carbon build up. Then you quote:
Now carbon build-up in general is rare? Well what is it? Make up your mind.
Me? How? I stated rotaries had problems with premature apex failure and we (dealership) told them they need a new engine....if not, go to a third party shop and have them "rebuild" it. What in the hell is your point? Because you:
1) Told me I was wrong with saying apex failure caused the problems we had with the cars. Really? Compression test and other results had to be given to customer before we could ask for $18,000. We tried, they said no....so we told them they can get it done cheaper elsewhere........
2) Told me carbon lock was rare to cause apex failure.Really? At what in the hell point do you know when the car was taken to my service department?
3) Told me that carbon was not a problem with the rotary engine. Really?
http://www.sportcompactcarweb.com/pr...t_2/index.html
Strange, it seems a lot of people think differently. Why is it, only you know the "real" truth about rotaries and everyone else is "clueless"? From now on, you will be referred to as, ROTARY GOD. It was you, not Moses, that split the Red Sea. And ONLY YOU can, not Chuck Norris, slam a revolving door.
You missed the boat on that one. I was talking about the importance of a properly flowing fuel system for the reliability of the rotary engine.
Just about EVERY forum out there (with turbo RX-7s) talk about the importance of proper cool down. (well, all turbo's actually) Once again, you are selecting whats important to your opinion.
Umm, no. Actually the one that gets Mazda in trouble every time they sell it to the public.
My mid-life crisis crack struck a nerve with you and leg humper, didn't it.
What?
No, just YOUR facts.
We both tried helping you, yet you continue to resort to adolescent behavior.
Tell ya what, after you have built & ported over 1,000 12A & 13B blocks for over 26 years for customers all over the US, we'll start listening. Hint: large bold face font ain't helping your cause. Uh oh.... seems you are on probation, maybe some others are also telling you to cool off a bit?
-Matt
Last edited by Yellow R1; 04-29-2007 at 02:44 PM.
#43
Looking back, I can defiantly see your point. Mazda techs were afraid to work on rotaries with the fear (and knowledge of) that Mazda will not assist nor help the tech fix the rotary engine internally. So, the tech had to state engine replacement was the only option. And that's why I stated we were allowed to outsource the repairs to independent shops.
You and (yellow R1) come on here trying to "defend" that something so simple as carbon build up will ruin (well, expensive repair) the rotary engine. It is funny how much time and effort you two are taking to disprove my comments when you guys are overlooking the fact that a 40K car can (and commonly so) need an engine prematurely. You two are talking up to and out of your asses to say it was "something else" that caused the failure. Okay, whatever.
Here is ANOTHER site stating carbon build causes apex seal failure. Why the denial? The truth is out there, and it needs to be told.
http://www.rotaryresurrection.com/ro...naldamage.html
http://www.rotaryresurrection.com/ro...naldamage.html
Did you even read YOUR OWN LINK? IT'S EXACTLY WHAT I SAID!
poor oilchange habits (since crankcase oil gets injected and burned via the OMP) are the worst contributors. Over time, the carbon builds up and can cause seals to stick. Its even possible for a chunk to fall off and cause a seal to break. Removing the OMP system and running premix can help combat carbon buildup and keep the internals clean and moving freely. Also, regular treatments of water injection can help steam clean the internals (there is a writeup elsewhere in the tech section about this).
Sometimes you hear people talk about carbon lock in a rotary. This is said to be when carbon jams itself in a corner of the engine and prevents it from turning…most of the time people refer to this when they have a engine that seized during shutdown or startup (cranking, slow rotation). IN reality, carbon lock in a rotary is very rare. The only time, in disassembling at least a few hundred cores, that Ive seen true carbon lock was on my personal FD when I bought it.
Sometimes you hear people talk about carbon lock in a rotary. This is said to be when carbon jams itself in a corner of the engine and prevents it from turning…most of the time people refer to this when they have a engine that seized during shutdown or startup (cranking, slow rotation). IN reality, carbon lock in a rotary is very rare. The only time, in disassembling at least a few hundred cores, that Ive seen true carbon lock was on my personal FD when I bought it.
Here is ANOTHER site stating storage can cause carbon to flake and jamming apex seal. look at question #9:
http://www.atkinsrotary.com/index.php?pag=8
http://www.atkinsrotary.com/index.php?pag=8
If poor fuel, spark plugs or wires are bad etc. - excessive build up can happen, and cause problems.
Here is ANOTHER site talking about the common problem of carbon in a rotary and how it could cause apex seal failure:
http://www.rx7-uk.co.uk/
http://www.rx7-uk.co.uk/
Here is ANOTHER site talking about...again....CARBON BUILD UP CAUSING ENGINE FAILURE @ 75,000 MILES :
http://uk.cars.yahoo.com/car-reviews...7-2002914.html
http://uk.cars.yahoo.com/car-reviews...7-2002914.html
Here is one of the MANY forums talking about the issues that I stated...that of course Mr Fountain and Mr Leg Humper (yellow R1) state never really happens....carbon build up....some become creative and actually talk about modifying a system to de-carbon on a "regular" basis. Hmmmm....
http://www.rx7club.com/showthread.php?t=33778
But, giving credit where credit is do....it does mention your water vapor trick.
http://www.rx7club.com/showthread.php?t=33778
But, giving credit where credit is do....it does mention your water vapor trick.
As I said you can clean the carbon off the rotors by pouring a slight bit of water down the intake plentum. The reason for doing so is to keep the rotor faces clean which is important with high hp boosted rotaries, it can stop detonation. It has nothing to do with the engine be ruined by carbon lock.
You state that carbon build up happens and give a technique to fix it and state it is rare for carbon build up to cause apex seal failure. Really? Everyone else states it is common for it to have carbon build up.
Now carbon build-up in general is rare? Well what is it? Make up your mind.
Now carbon build-up in general is rare? Well what is it? Make up your mind.
Strange, it seems a lot of people think differently. Why is it, only you know the "real" truth about rotaries and everyone else is "clueless"? From now on, you will be referred to as, ROTARY GOD. It was you, not Moses, that split the Red Sea. And ONLY YOU can, not Chuck Norris, slam a revolving door.
My facts are spot on.
Oh and since I'm talking out of my "azz" with over 25 years of experience and hundreds and hundrends engines built including build them for race shops etc. and ship them all over the country maybe you can tell us all your experience? Other than Joe's website?????
Lastly what's with all the hostility? I think I have been more than nice to you even after your nasty jabs...shame you can do the same back.
Last edited by Fountain; 04-29-2007 at 04:17 PM.
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Correction, you said carbon build up is rare. I'm proving it happens and COULD happen. Make up your mind Rotary God.
Rotary God speaks and the earth trembles.
I also know Rob Golden at Pinapple.
As I said you can clean the carbon off the rotors by pouring a slight bit of water down the intake plentum. The reason for doing so is to keep the rotor faces clean which is important with high hp boosted rotaries, it can stop detonation. It has nothing to do with the engine be ruined by carbon lock.
As I said you can clean the carbon off the rotors by pouring a slight bit of water down the intake plentum. The reason for doing so is to keep the rotor faces clean which is important with high hp boosted rotaries, it can stop detonation. It has nothing to do with the engine be ruined by carbon lock.
"CARBON BUILDUP and carbon lock:
You hear a lot of talk about carbon buildup in rotaries. There are many potential causes, the general consensus is that lack of redlining the engine, and poor oilchange habits (since crankcase oil gets injected and burned via the OMP) are the worst contributors.(you mentioned this earlier, I didn't doubt it.) Over time, the carbon builds up and can cause seals to stick. Its even possible for a chunk to fall off and cause a seal to break. Removing the OMP system and running premix can help combat carbon buildup and keep the internals clean and moving freely. Also, regular treatments of water injection can help steam clean the internals (there is a writeup elsewhere in the tech section about this). Sometimes you hear people talk about carbon lock in a rotary. This is said to be when carbon jams itself in a corner of the engine and prevents it from turning…most of the time people refer to this when they have a engine that seized during shutdown or startup (cranking, slow rotation). IN reality, carbon lock in a rotary is very rare. The only time, in disassembling at least a few hundred cores, that Ive seen true carbon lock was on my personal FD when I bought it. There was literally 1/8” thickness of carbon on the face of each rotor, and it finally got so thick that it contacted the rotorhousing walls and could no longer spin. These are not pics of that engine, but they show a fair amount of carbon buildup on a neglected (low mileage) engine."
You hear a lot of talk about carbon buildup in rotaries. There are many potential causes, the general consensus is that lack of redlining the engine, and poor oilchange habits (since crankcase oil gets injected and burned via the OMP) are the worst contributors.(you mentioned this earlier, I didn't doubt it.) Over time, the carbon builds up and can cause seals to stick. Its even possible for a chunk to fall off and cause a seal to break. Removing the OMP system and running premix can help combat carbon buildup and keep the internals clean and moving freely. Also, regular treatments of water injection can help steam clean the internals (there is a writeup elsewhere in the tech section about this). Sometimes you hear people talk about carbon lock in a rotary. This is said to be when carbon jams itself in a corner of the engine and prevents it from turning…most of the time people refer to this when they have a engine that seized during shutdown or startup (cranking, slow rotation). IN reality, carbon lock in a rotary is very rare. The only time, in disassembling at least a few hundred cores, that Ive seen true carbon lock was on my personal FD when I bought it. There was literally 1/8” thickness of carbon on the face of each rotor, and it finally got so thick that it contacted the rotorhousing walls and could no longer spin. These are not pics of that engine, but they show a fair amount of carbon buildup on a neglected (low mileage) engine."
That was an article by Shiv Pathic who had no experience with rotary engines. he recieved most of his education fro Brian @ Mostly Mazda, who is now out of business and Shane racing. Cool down the car so the seals between the rotor housings have time to cool down? Funny stuff.
Shhhhh......do you hear that? That's reason knocking, go answer it.
Why are you here? What is your point on coming here and trying to defend the rotary engine? You and leg humper are going in circles to prove a pointless point. I said it happened and proved it could happen. You say it is rare and it was the customer's fault for their problems. Rotary God speaks and no one gives a ****. Take leg humper with you.
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w210 E55
I must be getting better, then.
Man, give me some credit........I just picked some from the "29,000" results found on "Rotary engine carbon build up". Sorry if they don't qualify to you.
Help me? With what?
First off, Matt......don't get your blood pressure up, at your age...it's dangerous.
Second off, not interested on getting you tools to listen.
It's all in fun, man. Besides, it's just the "kill" thread and that's what I'm doing.
--Anthony
It's absolutley comical reading your opinions about 3rd gen powerplants (and your childish name calling antics). I especially like the links you keep posting. This one in particular.... http://www.rx7-uk.co.uk/ Are you kidding me? It's some UK "Joe Blow" giving his various personal opinions about the pros & cons of his 2 old rotary cars. He has never even OWNED a 3rd Gen RX-7, let alone WORKED on one. Wait, last one - promise!.....this is my 2nd favorite, http://uk.cars.yahoo.com/car-reviews...7-2002914.html It's a post from some UK Yahoo editorial writer - oooohhh noooo - another rotary "expert"! This rotary pro speaks of, "rotor tip wear" at 75,000 miles (not carbon build up as you stipulated). In either case, neither is right! There is no such thing as "rotor tip wear? He also went on to talk about how the 968 was a better handling car than the FD? Errr, no....not even close Sherlock. This stuff just keeps getting funnier & funnier!
Tell ya what, after you have built & ported over 1,000 12A & 13B blocks for over 26 years for customers all over the US, we'll start listening. Hint: large bold face font ain't helping your cause. Uh oh.... seems you are on probation, maybe some others are also telling you to cool off a bit?
Second off, not interested on getting you tools to listen.
It's all in fun, man. Besides, it's just the "kill" thread and that's what I'm doing.
--Anthony
Last edited by amgdriven; 04-29-2007 at 06:30 PM.
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Your next response should be good,Rotary God. It is taking almost a 1/2 hour "responding" to this thread.
I can't wait, it feels like Christmas Eve.
I can't wait, it feels like Christmas Eve.
Last edited by amgdriven; 04-29-2007 at 07:11 PM.
#47
I have built rotary engines and you? Not a one, it's painfully obvious who knows what they are talking about and who doesn't.
Let me quote the rest of his comments. It seems you "forgot" to post this.I will highlight the things I have already quoted earlier in this post.
That's the problem with many of the owners of RX-7's I dealt with 12 years ago, they don't know. I'm not talking the entire world shared my experience. Just some of my customers. You say I was wrong with my experiences and questioning what I dealt with. At what point can you not understand that?
No you don't. Your point is irrelevant, Kevin follows it up with;
IN reality, carbon lock in a rotary is very rare. The only time, in disassembling at least a few hundred cores, that Ive seen true carbon lock was on my personal FD when I bought it.
Grow up.
I'm sure everybody in the rotary world listens to a guy who has never built one, never worked on one and knows nothing about them. Great credientials on the subject.
I think this will be a very ironic post shortly.
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Yes, ironic indeed. Here you go.....................
My point is that the Gen III is a problematic and finicky piece of sh*t. Period. I have not claimed to know how to build one nor work on one. Just had to deal with angry customers and one lemon law lawsuit. That's all. I commented to a Mercedes Benz forum about major problems with low mileage rotaries that I experienced years ago. You, are here to change the minds and hearts of those that might think the rotary is a piece of crap also. Is it working? Probably not.
Do you also install big wings on your customer's cars? Man, that would be cool.
My point is that the Gen III is a problematic and finicky piece of sh*t. Period. I have not claimed to know how to build one nor work on one. Just had to deal with angry customers and one lemon law lawsuit. That's all. I commented to a Mercedes Benz forum about major problems with low mileage rotaries that I experienced years ago. You, are here to change the minds and hearts of those that might think the rotary is a piece of crap also. Is it working? Probably not.
Do you also install big wings on your customer's cars? Man, that would be cool.
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I must be getting better, then.
Man, give me some credit........I just picked some from the "29,000" results found on "Rotary engine carbon build up". Sorry if they don't qualify to you.
Help me? With what?
First off, Matt......don't get your blood pressure up, at your age...it's dangerous.
Second off, not interested on getting you tools to listen.
It's all in fun, man. Besides, it's just the "kill" thread and that's what I'm doing.
--Anthony
Man, give me some credit........I just picked some from the "29,000" results found on "Rotary engine carbon build up". Sorry if they don't qualify to you.
Help me? With what?
First off, Matt......don't get your blood pressure up, at your age...it's dangerous.
Second off, not interested on getting you tools to listen.
It's all in fun, man. Besides, it's just the "kill" thread and that's what I'm doing.
--Anthony
You have never even wrenched with an engine but are posting a bunch of internet sites (some are individual 3rd party "nobody's" to substantiate your theories that you heard from some Mazda techs 10 yrs ago (that also couldn't even open a motor or properly diagnose 90% of any of even the most simple issues)?
Leg humper? Yet another mature comment. I don't think you are going to be on this Forum much longer.
-Matt
Last edited by Yellow R1; 04-29-2007 at 07:49 PM.
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Reading comprehension seems to be an issue with you. Here is a another hint: Nobody said carbon build up was an impossibility. What we did say was that it was so RARE it's not even an issue. If you don't change your oil in a piston motor, guess what?.... you will break/cease your motor as well. It's called normal maintenance....not an inherant engine design flaw . And, I have never heard of anyone not running their RX-7 (it also does not need to be redlined to keep the engine, "carbon free". Hilarious stuff!)
You have never even wrenched with an engine but are posting a bunch of internet sites (some are individual 3rd party "nobody's" to substantiate your theories that you heard from some Mazda techs 10 yrs ago (that also couldn't even open a motor or properly diagnose 90% of any of even the most simple issues)?
Leg humper? Yet another mature comment. I don't think you are going to be on this Forum much longer.
-Matt
You have never even wrenched with an engine but are posting a bunch of internet sites (some are individual 3rd party "nobody's" to substantiate your theories that you heard from some Mazda techs 10 yrs ago (that also couldn't even open a motor or properly diagnose 90% of any of even the most simple issues)?
Leg humper? Yet another mature comment. I don't think you are going to be on this Forum much longer.
-Matt
Anyway, I just want you and fountain to know I think the world of you two. No, really....I do. If there is ANYTHING I can do for you guys........I'm just a type away.