sosh

Interested in hearing views on the WSJ article on 2/04/02. I for one believe the souring reputation is deserved

St Nick

Mercedes ranking in long term and initial quality has declined because the auto industry quality as a whole has increased. It appears that Mercedes has not been working as hard to improve its quality. The Chrysler division, which is lagging, may be the cause of this. The Mercedes division is keeping Chrysler afloat and they are covering the loss by spending less on improvments.
It is a shame though, the Daimler-Chrylser merger seemed to be more beneficial to Chrylser so far. Hopefully Mercedes will start improving greatly in quality when they bring out the new model for their lines. I think we have a long way to go before Mercedes' reputation turns extermely sour.

sosh

Partially agree with you but I feel that the atricle is right on, particularly with the ML. Had a 98 which had better build quality than my 02. Factory support to the dealers has suffered greatly and MB's willingness to pay for warranty work has also suffered. They are without question redirecting resources to keep Chrysler afloat at MB's expense. Quality in my estimation has declined since current Chairman has been in office. Believe that he does not understand what drives the MB buyer.

Zebra

I agree with you Sosh.

Dealer service has gone down also.

Does anybody have that article online?

young

http://mbspy.bacosys.be/mbquality.htm

i think mb quality has gone down irrespective of the chrysler merger. yeah, the article link above gives the text, but not the charts that go w/ it. sorry about the spacing.

first chart:
trading quantity for quality? (not complete...)
(manuf) (1997) (1998) (1999) (2000) (2001)
MERC 122,265 170,245 189,437 205,614 206,638
Lexus 97,593 156,260 185,890 206,037 223,983

losing ground in the US:
Competitors are improving faster than Mercedes is, so its overall rank has declined.

Long term quality
- 2001 2000
Industry average 382 412
Luxury average 285 313
Mercedes 296 311
Mercedes Rank 10 6

Initial quality
- 2001 2000
IA 147 154
LA 122 127
MB 129 134
MB rank 10 9

Zebra

Young,

Thanks for the link!
Great info.

You the man.

timf

I have a MY2002 ML430 which has been plagued with electrical problems more or less from day one. Now with about 27,000 miles on the clock it has had about a dozen none service related visits to the main dealer. Unfortunately I am not able to buy an extended warranty for this truck as it clearly needs one and will doubtless have to sell it at a significant loss when the makers warranty expires.
I suspect there is way too much domestic content in the ML to be considered a true Mercedes - I've never had this much trouble with any car / truck before. Not even a Chrysler when they were at their worst !

Are you listening MB USA ?

Tim

sosh

Are you certain you have an 02 ML430?? In 2002 the 430 became the ML500.

timf

Oops, typo on my behalf. My ML430 is an '00, it's my Porsche 996 which is a '02. See my profile.

Wish it was an '02 - maybe it wouldn't have been so much trouble....

Tim

sosh

Actually, my 02 ML500 is a lot more trouble than the 98 ML320 I had. Tomorrow is the 6 mos anniversary since I took delivery. Have had 16 visits to the dealer's shop most have been 2 or 3 day visits with several taking a week!! Also have an 01 E320 4Matic that is just over a year old and its been absolutly perfect. One shop visit for its first A service. Friend has a 996 02 Porsche. Had problems with the computer stalling the car when it was over 80 degrees out and in left turns.

timf

Hi Sosh,
With complexity of modern cars (no matter which make), there's always a good chance of some initial problems due to 'newness' or the famous 'bath-tub' curve of problems. But if after two years plus of ownership and 27,000 miles the problems continue with regularity, then I'm forced to concluded there's something wrong with MB QC. Further I know I'm far from alone with these problems.
While the dealer continues to do its best to keep my ML on the road, MB USA has been totally unco-operative with my request to purchase an extended warranty or offer any other form of compensation for my inconvenience.
Basically it seems once they've got your money - then good bye.
If MB doesn't get there act together, pretty likely there won't be an MB as customers will vote with their wallets - like I intend to do ! No more MB products in my garage - ever.....

BTW
Neither my 996 or Boxster before it were 'perfect' - but what minor problems they had were taken care of promptly and efficiently with no subsequent visits to the shop for none service related problems.

Tim

sosh

I don't expect perfection just a reasonable degree of quality. My E Class has been excellent.Today is the 6 month anniversary of delivery of my ML500. 16 Shop visits!!! One factory tech who worked on my car in Nov and promised to get back to the dealer and me. None of us have heard a word and its almost march!! Agree that MBUSA is the issue, Dealer has knocked himsef out. Have owned 70 or so new cars in my lifetime so far, ranging from Chev. to Ferrari and have never received better service or more attention than from my MB dealer. I do agree with you that MB is the big problem as is the QC/QA particularly with vendor supplied components. Lowest bidder and no supervision to speak of by MB

timf

Machine gun door locks
Remote entry keys - numerous times
Window switches failing - front & rear
O2 sensor failure
SRS warning light
MCS failure (nav system and CD player)
Alternator failure
Erratic fuel guage / pump
Entry control module replaced 4 times
Various squeaks & rattles - learnt to live with them...
Broken front seat mounts - rocks back & forth.
Broken power seat electrics
Squeaky breaks (from new)
Worn out pads on all wheels, but no warning light !
Auxillary cooling fan fuse failing
Various cosmetic trim pieces curling up & falling off
Seat belt re-call


I've had all of the above and more.... So have many other people.
BTW, this truck has been pampered and never taken off road.
After several years of production MB should have addressed these problems.
Are you listening MB USA ? Improve your vendor supply quality, especially on the electrics.

Well that about sums it up - rant over

Tim

sosh

With my ML500 had of the items you list only one rattle and the brake squeal. Problems were in other areas. With the 98 ML320 of your list had only window switch and squeaks and rattles. In fact the 98 was better than the 02!!

timf

Just when I thought how well the truck is running - ie no problems for over a month, the battery goes and fails - luckily while at home. What a heap of cr*p this truck is.
Another electrical failure to add to my ever growing list.
At this rate there won't be many electrical bits left to replace.

Tim in San Diego

allenjdmb

how the whole thing's going down. As a 20+year Benz customer, I'm just appalled by their new attitude. And to answer your earlier question, of course MB/DC is listening and watching. They just don't care. Thier assumption is that they are going to obtain lots of new, young buyers who have never owned a Benz before and don't have any reference for what the quality of service and merchandise used to be. Warranty claims are routinely denied, problems are "hoped" or ignored away, all in the name of more units. This is American Big Three thinking at its finest.

I will continue to say it--again--as my MB rep told me:
We used to make the best automobiles, now all we make is money....

When will they understand that it's better to sell less cars at more profit that just more units? The customers, dealers, and vendors will be happier and better serviced/compensated.
I would challenge someone from MB USA (or MB/DC) to refute these ideas. They won't.

SilverSport

...newly purchased 2002 ML320... Any report out there that this will be my soon to be 'headache'? Or is it isolated to a certain model year!

So far, (knocking on wood) I have no issues! Should I expect what you folks experienced? Or should I expect MB fixed all the issue on this model year (2002)....

Any response is appreciated to prepare myself of the 'headache'!

Thanks

timf

Hi SilverSport,

Reading about other peoples problems with their ML can be worrying - but maybe you're one of the lucky ones who has got a 'good ' ML ie one which doesn't have the full set of quality issues.
None the less, as with most new cars these days with their complex systems, I'd be planning on at least one warranty claim :-)

Keep us posted how things work out for you.
FYI
I'm still waiting for a reply from MB HQ in the Netherlands about the situation with my ML and the total lack of customer care from the local regional rep at MB USA (Ed Conner). They've said they're investigating and will let me know - I'll keep the board posted when (if) I have any response.

Tim in San Diego

timf

Hi allenjdmb,

Just read your post about MB's new 'policy' of more units versus fewer units at higher profit margin and I believe you have hit the nail right on the head.

Problem is of course that 'joe public' suffers for the greater good, ie more market penetration.

Personally I don't mind paying a premium for a well built, solid vehicle with first rate engineering and servicing.

For the past 20 years or more I had been a BMW person for those very reasons - but BMW have gone down a similar road to MB but maybe are not quite so dysfunctional.

I thought MB would be better, but from my experience to date with this my first 'MB' (if I can call it that) - they are far behind BMW in QA.

My 'other car' btw is a model year 2002 Porsche 996 - grossly overpriced compared to the domestic 'competition', but first class design, build and after sales service. I'm very pleased - which goes back to your original point about profit margins and quality - they go hand in hand.

Tim in San Diego

allenjdmb

I agree with you completely about the 996 as an example. Is it put together as well or with as high quality parts as a 993? No, but it is still an enjoyable experience to drive, primarily because of the attitudes at PCNA. They care about their customers, and MBUSA does not. Example: a good friend had a 99 996 cab. He regualarly received calls from the customer care center at Porsche. They constantly asked him about his car and how it was going. His overall comments were very positive, with the only complaint, several times, that the drink holder was too small, his only real beef. Guess what? When the MY 02 Carrera came out, he receved a call and a letter from Porsche saying that he ought to check it out. And surprise, he bought another one. And Porsche is one of the companies MB should emulate, as their percentage profit on sales is remarkaably high in the industry. I really do feel that customers would not mind paying another 5% or so for first class quality and customer service, which MB does not currently have. Now that finance guys are in charge instead of car guys, they don't see it that way.

Can somebody forward this thread to NewJersey and Stuttgart? I sure wish they would take a look.
Sorry for the ranting. Guess I need a new hobby!
allen

MBADVISOR

I cant believe all the whinning I am hearing about whats causing the quality of the Mercedes being built today to be poor. If you look at the actual number of vehicles produced 10 years ago to the amount produced today, you would see the quality problem lies within the production. I've been working for Mercedes for 21 years as a tecnition & an advisor. The problem has nothing to do with Chrysler. Blame the rate of production/lack of quality control. Also the quality in the materials has changed in the past 10 or so years. More plastics, more computers & less quality control.

timf

I figure the reason people are complaining about their ML's is because the design is a good design but poorly executed - hence thier disappointment and frustration.

Undoubtedly MB have a quality problem with the ML (see various published articles & customer feedback) - quite where the root cause of the problem lies is subject to debate and can probably never be addressed in a forum like this.

IMHO They need to more closely monitor their component suppliers and perform more detailed QA as the vehicle is being assembled.

As for the 'whining' - I think customers have every right to complain when they have problems and to complain loudly if the vendor is not delivering the goods. Especially when they have paid a substantial amount of $$$

It's only in this manner that a great manufacturer such as MB can continue (regain?) its greatness.

Sheilds up ;-)

Tim in San Diego

vsamak

I think customers of any car that's over $50k and from a luxury brand have not only right but a duty to whine and complain as long as the cars' quality is worse then that of $24k honda accord.

I mentioned this before, but for many people certain "other" luxury brands become more of a status entry and they'd rather be in denial of quality problems, while zealously promoting the car to other people. Just go over to bimmer.org and see the response people have to problems with X5. I know these boards are far from reliable, but they can be interesting studies. X5 owners are definitely showing a much bigger share of pride in their vehicle while easily glossing over serious quality problems with the X5 than their ML counterparts, at least from the sampling on these boards.

Sometimes it depends where you came from, but poor quality is no excuse for a luxury brand such as MB.

vs.

MBADVISOR

No one is making excuses for poor quality in MBs, the point I am making is not to blame it on the merger of the 2 companies. Mercedes does have quality problems. Thats a fact. But you cannot single out MB. I've had bmw & lexus owners refuse to buy another one because of continuing problems. But you cannot trash MB for rattles or squeaking noises that cannot be heard unless you drive in total silence trying to discover new ones. Some people do not need to drive Mercedes Benz.

timf

major component failures which result in the vehicle being either un-usable or even potentially un-safe.
I'm sure you're well aware of the brake warning light issue, failing batteries, fuel pump failures, O2 sensors, windows stuck down (switch failure) and many other such problems.
These are not trivial squeaks or rattles - some of them are serious safety matters which MB needs to address.
I'm glad we agree MB has quality problems - but until MB USA gets its act together people (like myself and others) will continue to make our discontent known.
I also agree that all other manufacturers have problems to some extent or other.
My gripe is with MB USA - not the mechanic or service advisor whose doing his best to keep a truck on the road which has been poorly assembled with dubious quality components.
FYI
My ML also has a few rattles & squeaks and not once have I made a big deal about them - my gripe is with the major failures I 've had - todate over 10 instances and counting.
To save bandwidth I won't post them here - but if anyone wants to know, send me an e mail and I'll provide the whole list.

As for your comment " Some people do not need to drive Mercedes Benz." Does this mean you consider MB cars substandard ? or are you saying you can't be bothered to take care of your customers who in the end pay your wages ? The former I suspect.

Tim in San Diego