TheBeaver's

Hello all, my first post!
The mrs. and I have been contemplating new vehicles and the ML has performed better than the other SUV's we have looked at. The concern(s):
1. It seems that there are lots of little fixes, most under warranty, some not.
2. From all the reading do most of you feel this to be a "dependable" (would you put your wife and newborne in it) vehicle.
3. I know they are relatively a new model, but what is the life cycle of one of these vehicles, (my acura is at 360,000 miles), we don't want to spend $50k for 3 years.
4. Do you all think the body style will change in 05 or 06, we were looking to purchase in April of 04 but can wait if the 05 is new style?

Please let me know, I have spent most of the day reading current and old posts and haven't seen to many "love its" or "hate its."

Thank You!

The Beaver's

500AMG

I believe MY05 will be the redesigned ML. Rumored to have an available long or short wheelbase. I don't believe there is anything concrete at this point, however.

amb9800

Well everything points towards W164 (next-gen ML) coming in MY2005, which means delivery summer/fall 2004.

W164 will have a short-wheelbase model which will be about the size of the current ML (perhaps just a tad smaller) and the long-wheelbase model to better compete against the Lexus LX470/Toyota Landcruiser, Range Rover, and other large luxury SUVs.

Body setup is changing from the current truck-like ladder frame to a unibody setup, which should give more comfort and more flexibility for off-roading.

The engine choices will be part of Mercedes' completely new lineup of DGI (Direct Gasoline Injection) engines which utilize some of MB's newest engine technology and result in smaller engines with much more power and efficiency, along with MB's relatively new CDI diesels (which are supposed to be very nice, smooth, torquey, and efficient engines). Standard DGI engine in the base W164 will be either a 3.0L V6 or a smaller 2.6 or 2.4L V6 - any one of those three should produce more power than the current 3.2L/3.7L V6 with much better efficiency. The 3.0L V6 is rumored to produced upwards of 280HP, as compared to the current 3.2L, which produces 215HP and is pretty gas-inefficient in the ML.

Interestingly, the 5.0L V8 (ML500) may be replaced by either a 3.6L V8 or a slightly larger V8 (~4.0L), and again, bringing much better efficiency and more power to better compete against competitors. As of now, the AMG version will likely be the same V8 engine, just fitted with a nice supercharger (hopefully something like the 20,100 RPM one in the SLK32 and C32, which boosts them from 215HP to 349HP, or bettter ).

Additionally, there will be the CDI diesel engines, as I mentioned above. The sizes aren't known yet, but I've heard something about a 3.2L CDI diesel and a larger one (~4.0L).

Again, none of these engine details are concrete, but they give a general idea as to what will be happening with the ML.

MB will be increasing the build quality on the next ML, so that should alleviate some of the issues the current ML had in earlier model years.

The only solid stuff that's out there are spy shots (basically testing vehicles with heavy camouflage). There are some people who try to put together computer-generated pictures that supposedly represent the future model, but they're usually wildly off the mark until very close to the model's release, when the spy photos start revealing a little more.

Here's MBSpy's page on the next-gen ML. They have the spy shots that are posted all over the web and will probably have some more details soon:

http://www.mbspy.com/w164.htm

The Car Connection has some newer spy shots - but the details (engine, feaures, etc.) in their text are pretty fuzzy, so until a little closer to launch, such details won't be very accurate.

http://www.thecarconnection.com/inde...58,178&sid=178

Also, just FYI the W164 ML will also be introduced along with the GST (Grand Sport Tourer), which will share its underpinnings with the ML but will be longer and slightly lower than the ML - it's a crossover car similar in concept to the Chrysler Pacifica and similar vehicles. Here's a page on the concept car that gives an idea as to the production GST, although they say the real car looks quite different in terms of styling, etc.

http://www.mbspy.com/visiongst.htm

And here's MBSpy's page on the production GST:

http://www.mbspy.com/w251.htm

MB has confirmed that the GST will be a 2005 MY introduction, starting to be delivered late 2004, and since it will be introduced along with the W164 ML, the latter should come at the same time.

Along with the GST and ML will come the CST, which will be based on the next-generation A-Class subcompact and will be basically a very small version of the GST (and priced between $25k and $30k), and a Smart model - either the new ForFour (see http://www.techautos.com/modules.php...rder=0&thold=0 ) or their upcoming SUV, possibly named ForFive.

-----------------------

So that's all about the next-gen stuff.

About the current ML, early model years did have quite a bit of small issues, but many parts were changed in the 2000-2001 model years, and in 2002, the ML was facelifted, and over 1200 parts were replaced. Additionally, external styling was modified and the interior was updated slightly (separate heating/cooling unit for the rear passengers, new center console, new digital heating/cooling system, etc.).

Nothing much was changed for 2003 MY, except the DVD nav was made an option (you can take the DVD nav module and put it into any ML that has the MCS unit though, which means any ML from 2000 until now) and the 'Inspiration Edition' was added, which gives you the grille and AMG sport seats from the ML55 AMG, better wheels and tires, and Inspiration Edition badging.

If you get a recent ML, you should be fine in terms of reliability, etc. Some people do get unlucky and get a bad car, but that's true for nearly every mass-produced car these days.

The ML's probably not going to last for 400,000 miles - none of these modern luxury SUVs - BMW, Lexus, etc. is going to last as long as the same manufacturer's sedans are, for example - they're just not built as well. The ML, BMW's X5, and Lexus' new RX330 are all built in North America. The quality doesn't match German or Japanese factories where the rest of the models are made, but it's generally not too bad.

I don't know of any owners of a relatively new luxury SUV who have driven that much with their trucks, although there was that thing with a scientific surveying team who travelled around many parts of Africa in a '99 ML320 and put something like 950,000 miles on it in 2 years without any major problems.

This is probably the longest post I have ever written, but I hope it helps in some way .

TheBeaver's

mbakshi:

THANK YOU SO MUCH for your reply!

That was a VERY informative and detailed reply, I had to read it aloud so my wife could hear what you had to say. It helps us a GREAT deal to have a strong suspicion when the model is changing, I bought a vehicle once in February and the model changed in May, it's depressing.
Again.

THANK YOU!!!!

Two last questions,

do you like your ML?
Would you buy another one?

Cant thank you enough!

The Beaver's

Azure ML

I know this is a complete long shot, but do you have a son named Daniel? I haven't met too many people with the last name of Beaver.

amb9800

You're welcome

Our ML is running great - very nice car, haven't had a single problem - not even a minor issue with it. It only has 4000 miles at this point, so buying another one is many years away , but yes we'd buy another one. IMO the ML offers the best balance between sportiness/handling, safety, space, and ruggedness/capability.

Yes, there are competitors that are better in any one particular field than the ML, but they tend to lack in other areas (e.g. the BMW X5 and Infiniti FX45 are considered to be more sporty, but they are much smaller, lack the capability to handle rough stuff, and are not as good in the other fields). So the ML was the way to go IMO because it offered a good balance of all areas plus the most safety features of any luxury SUV (10 airbags, ESP, intelligent 4-ETS+ 4WD as opposed to just AWD, etc.) and more.

The safety aspect is strong on the ML - it went through years of internal testing under the most stringent internal MB standards. See the multiple horizontal roll-over test, which can be seen in the middle of MB's 2001 ad titled "Staying Alive" - see that here (2 MB download):

http://www.off-road.com/mbenz/Staying_Alive.avi

MB also puts its cars through a vertical drop (the vehicle is hauled up 15 ft and dropped upside down to see the strength of the roof). Pretty nice testing

Here's a funny MB ad from '98 or '99 (you need QuickTime to play this):

http://www.digital-atelier.com/AMCIc...CIQT/2QTda.htm



Anyway, two years ago, a relative of mine was in need of a new car, so I suggested the ML, and they went and test drove it and decided that it would be good, so I did some research and found a pretty nice deal at one of MB's auctions through one an acquaintance who goes to them. It was an '01 ML320 with 2000 miles on it - barely used and in very good shape. I installed some accessories for them, and it has been running ever since with no problems. Now, in only two years, they've driven it more than 30,000 miles with no problems.

So I've had personal experience with two MLs that are working perfectly.

The earlier model years did have issues though - we have a family friend who bought one of the first MLs when it was introduced in the 1998 model year and had issues with the car.

As a rule of thumb I wouldn't suggest getting one of the first cars in any model line though, so ordering the W164 to get delivered ASAP may not be a good idea - maybe if possible wait at least a few months after they start delivering because even the best cars in the world have hiccups in the first production models.

Oh - one thing I forgot to mention was that in the middle of the 2003 model year, MB renamed the ML320 to ML350 and took the 3.2L engine and expanded it to 3.7L so that the power went from 215HP to 233HP. This was because a lot of newer competitors have ~240HP, and to better compete, the base ML needed some more oomph in MB's view. So the 3.7L is not a new engine - it's the same as the 3.2, just bored out 0.5L extra.

Hope this helps.

TheBeaver's

Azure: we have a daughter on the way but no son.

mbakshi, Thanks again!

I'll check out the adds, I appreciate them!

Thanks!

The Beaver's

mikepa

I’ve had my new 2003 ML-500 for a couple of weeks and 1000 miles and so far it’s been fine, I’m very pleased with it. I would not buy a new model the first year – especially for a vehicle built in the US. Also late in the model year is a good time to be getting discounts. I paid $42K for my ML-500 with the sunroof and Bose radio/CD packages – and that includes everything (except sales tax – there was none as I had a high price trade).

P.S. The new ML doesn't look too appealing from the spy photos. It looks very small. MB ruined the CLK with the new model (back-end looks like a Doge Neon) and looks like they maybe doing the same to the ML.

TheBeaver's

I have to agree with you Mike, I don't think we will be the first on our block to own the new model? (depends on how the wife feels though). Also looking at the spy shots, the GST looks like a huge Volvo stationwagen? I'm sure that it looks different now, but if it doesn't that would be a mistake (IMO). Our cars are on their last legs, so if something happends before next year, the ML is still a consideration and also the E series. We will see?

Thanks for the response



The Beaver's

amb9800

Yeah that's what I said too in my prior post - I wouldn't go for the first model - preferably not even the first year, but at least not the first couple months of production on a new car.

But looking at your timeframe, which is around the release of the W164, I'd say maybe wait two or three months into the production if possible, then see how the new model is faring in terms of initial issues, etc.

The W164 ML and the CST will be very important for MB (and the GST to a lesser extent as it'll be a higher-end vehicle than the ML) as they are at the lower end in MB's scale and so they will bring a lot of sales, so their design will be pretty important. MB appears to have some nice designs in the works .

Regarding the size of the ML, some of the spyshots depict the SWB ML testing with the GST and the current ML. The SWB model will be approximately the size of the current ML. Keep in mind that many times the vehicles seen in spy photos are mules, or at least partially mules, which means they are a mixture of different vehicles running for the purpose of testing some new parts. So they may not represent the dimensions of the actual car.

One nice testing mule was seen when VW wanted to test the chassis and components for its SUV, named Touareg (known then as the Colorado) They ran them around with ML bodies on top.

http://www.thecarconnection.com/index.asp?article=292

TheBeaver's

We would wait unless the wife is killing me for one, (she also likes the E320 or E55). I did like the VW test vehicle, although I would NEVER buy a VW, I have a long history with VW and I have grown to hate them (different subject all together).
Like I said earlier, I hope MB doesn't make a big Volvo looking stationwagen, but we will all have to wait and see.
I am looking forward to the MY05 though!

Thanks!

The Beaver's

Chip

I have just traded E-55 for an ML500. The E-55 was good car but unfortunately a service nightmare. The 5th time at shop for the same problems was the final straw. I owned a 99 ML320 that I was very happy with and I hope I'll be happy with this decision. I will never buy an MB again the first year a redesign is out. When The new ML's come out in 05 I will be watching this board and others (see E-55 board to see what I mean) before I go with MB again.

mikepa

It's ashame you had problems with your E-55 Chip. My 2002 CLK-55 wasn't as problem free as my 1998 CLK-430 (literally NO problems for the first three years), but overall the CLK-55 was a great car and I'm missing the power since trading to a ML-500. (I traded because I needed more space.)

Chip

That's the sad thing I will miss the 460HP. But having it in the shop more than my garge is something I couldn't tolerate.

amb9800

Chip and mikepa, you both went from AMG 55's to ML500s - did you consider the ML55?

Granted it doesn't have the supercharger that the E55K AMG does, so it has 349HP instead of 476HP (E55K is somewhere between 470 and 493HP - MB has put out many different numbers). Plus it's an SUV, but still it's pretty peppy compared to the ML320/350/430/500's - is there a reason why you guys didn't go for the ML55?

The next ML55 should have nice loads of power - reportedly the goal is to debunk the Porsche Cayenne Turbo at a fraction of the cost of the Porsche, so that the ML55 regains the title of the fastest production consumer SUV.

Chip

I didn't opt for a 55 because I want to use it offroad. The 55's are lower and the low profile tires are not really suited for that. My old 320 was quite an good 4-wheeler and I did some pretty severe trails with it in Utah. Not a Land Rover mind you. Needs more wheel travel. But you have that option.

mikepa

From a CLK-430 to the CLK-55 there was a huge difference in power, but from the ML-500 to the ML-55 there just isn't enough to justify the huge price differential.

oaktree5

Hi

I have a 2001 ML 55 with 18,000 miles on the odometer. It is my daily driver. I primarily drive it to work, pick up the cleaning, go to the market, haul things for my wife etc, ---you get the picture.

It has never been into the dealer for any kind of repairs. This little truck is indestructable. I also use it to humble and distress kids driving muscle cars from one stop light to another and have never been beaten.

It is easy to park and easy to get into and get out of. It is a very nonfatiqueing car to drive. I would be very comfortable having my wife and kids ride around in it because it is so reliable.

TheBeaver's

Thanks OakTree5, thats more of what I want to hear in reference to these vehicles, this post has been a great one for me so far! I have gotten LOTS of information and opinions and they all seem to be positive. It seems as if the people who have a complaint voice there complaint and tell their story to as many who will listen, then they disappear?

We have test driven the Acura MDX, Toyota Sequoia, BMW, and the ML. The Acura when you made a hard turn felt as if it was going to tip, the Toyota was more expensive, had less luxuries, and rode like a truck (not good for wife-n-kid(s)), and the BMW for our taste interior wise was ugly, I do like the exterior of the BMW better than the ML but what do you see most, interior. The most shocking thing to me was how damn expensive the Toyota Land Cruiser is! Oh well, this is a brief description of the process we are going through to this point. I hope more posts keep coming in, the more information I can get the better.

Thanks!

The Beaver's

GregW / Oregon

[QUOTE]Originally posted by mbakshi
[B]Well everything points towards W164 (next-gen ML) coming in MY2005, which means delivery summer/fall 2004.

I'm looking at replacing my '98 in the next couple years and have been following the news loosely, but that is a nice sinopsis. Thanks!

mb_gopher

to rebut oaktree 5: i have an '01 ML320 that is constantly in the dealership (whose service is less than stellar given the purchase price of MB vehicles) for problems. a quick overview of what has gone wrong with my ML:

1) sunroof wind deflector "fell off"

2) in 4-5 times for recurrent hesitation in summer months. dealer has replaced ECU twice and still not fixed.

3) gps/radio antenna failed and replaced (looks like the replacement is going south now too)

4) tires mounted/balanced but tech "forgot" to torque a lugbolt which fell off. had to go to dealership on sat morning to have lugbolt replaced (salesman in suit put it on with lug wrench with absolutely no checking of torque!)

5) trailer lights failed due to cheap-o connector (contacts on special MB connector for trailer wiring get pushed up inside body of connector and fail to mate)

6) fuse constantly blows causing A/C to perform inadequately (dealer has supposedly fixed this)

problems with my dealer:

1) had concerns regarding the MB version of OnStar (can't recall the name MB has for it) and billing. could never get anyone in MB corporate to discuss this despite leaving msgs to call me back (call never returned)

2) got a Daewoo as a loaner for warranty repairs (once had this vehicle for as long as a week)

3) general impression that dealership is living in an ivory tower and is unwilling to accept that any MB vehicle or their service is anything but "impeccable"

ML has a history of unreliability; i won't buy another ML nor another MB ==> too much money for too little car

TheBeaver's

Thank you for the honest reply, I also want to hear the negatives of the ML, I haven't decided yet if I am going to get one, what I have decided is if I do get one it will be at least a mid year 2005. If you don't mind me asking, what drove you to purchase the ML in the first place, look? handleing? name? Just looking at why people want this vehicle. Good luck with your next purchase, I hope it works out better than this one did.

Thanks!

The Beavers

mb_gopher

in '01 the options were:

1) ML320

2) BMW X5 w/V8 for considerably more money (the V6 was not available yet)

3) smaller Lexus RX300

4) unreliable Land Rover for considerably more money (not too keen on the dual solid axles of the LR at that point either)

5) smaller Infiniti that was essentially a rebadged Nissan Pathfinder

6) Ford Explorer (solid rear axle, lower quality, etc.)

7) Ford Expedition (solid rear axle, lower quality, drove like a truck)

8) Chevy Tahoe (solid rear axle, lower quality)

9) minivan :-P

The only other vehicle I seriously considered was the Chevy Tahoe (slightly cheaper but bigger than ML320). Decided I really preferred a more luxury vehicle so went with the ML.

Size was one of my primary considerations (BMW, Lexus RX, Infiniti ruled out on that count as being too small), followed by driving quality (that nixed the Fords) and perceived reliability (bye-bye Land Rover).

My particular dealer has been less than stellar in service (many people in this area have low opinion of my dealer I have learned) and the reliability of the ML has also been a disappointment.

I would strongly consider the VW Touareg or the Toyota Land Cruiser/Lexus LX470. Would be even more interested if Audi came out with their own version of the Touareg (my wife drives a A6 4.2 which has been reliable and the service is quite good).

amb9800

At least from what it seems, Audi will not be getting a version of the Touareg - they will have they own unique SUV lineup.

The Touareg does have some good points - quality should be pretty good, nice air suspension, etc., although paying $50k for a VW doesn't seem right for a lot of people - that's a factor that hurts it a bit in the eyes of consumers.

The Toyota Land Cruiser/Lexus LX470 also have some nice points - nice and luxurious feel, trucky, but those same things can also be downsides to the truck - it's a lot more 'truck-like' than the ML and feels, at least IMO, a bit 'bloated,' at least in appearance. And they're a lot more expensive than the ML. So much so that the LX470 winds up competing with the G500 and not the ML.

The next-gen ML's LWB version should compete more directly with Toyota's large SUVs.

Major competitors for the ML, from a sales perspective, are the Acura MDX (for ML320/350), the BMW X5 (for ML320/350, 500, 55), Lexus RX330 (ML320/350), Lexus GX470 (ML500), VW Touareg (ML320/350, 500), Porsche Cayenne (for ML500 and 55), Infiniti FX35/45 (ML320/350, 500), and Cadillac SRX (ML320/350, 500, and soon for ML55).

Let's see how the next ML turns out

toniusbenz

I have an 03 ML350 and I find that the engine is too noisy even at high speeds compared to other SUV's and it feels heavy especially on inclines, but not lacking power. I don't know if this is the same for the ML500. I would'nt be buying another ML (05 ML) if this is also the case. Its just too annoying, at least for me.