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So this is my first thread ever, anywhere. Its just frustrating how there is no information about engine interchangeability between models, someone posted once a list of engines and their differences that was found on an ebay listing, but thats all I have found, an they had older models there.
I purchased an overheated 2002 ML500, and have been looking for a low millage engine, after 1 month searching, I found an 70K mile engine from a 2006 CLS500 (everywhere it says its compatible, junkyards, ebay, used engine places etc).
I assumed there were going to be some parts swapping but not at the level Im into now.
I went ahead and purchased it, after removing my engine, I placed engines side by side. could see both engine mounts were different, exhaust manifolds were different. oil sensor positions were different, oil dip sticks were different, then looking further found lower and upper oil pans were different, when I opened them, oil pump was different.
After replacing all of the above, thanking god I did not have to remove timing to swap pump. I headed to what worried me most (stupid me I should have started there). The flywheel was different, and the bolt pattern was different so they could not be swapped, I removed the flywheels and placed them side by side, same height, diameter, hole count hole location (rectangle shaped one) just the stupid bold pattern that made them impossible to interchange.
So after changing the above parts, and putting old parts in my old engine I set them flat again, and aligned OT marking on harmonic balancer to the closest bolt to it from the serpentine belt tensioner. Other engine had slightly different marking but degrees were there, here is where the ordeal starts.
Both engine harmonic balancers aligned to the mentioned bolt, the flywheel and of course the flywheel dents or holes for the crankshaft sensor did not match position, one was 20 degrees off!! I started to freak out after all that work, I thought there were changes in the timing too!.
I took a deep breath and started analyzing the situation, to make a quick test I removed both spark plugs on cylinder 1 set both engines exactly at top dead center turned engine several times and tested several times to make sure engines pistons on both engines were at the same position, to my surprise, the flywheel positions match now!. I decided to go further and removed right valve covers on both engines to check the position of the cam that has the cam position sensor on, I turned the engine's crank to move the cam and check it in different locations, (see pictures where I got a flat peace of metal that I laid on the edge of the head and aligned to the thick square part of both cams) and again the flywheel marks matched positions!, I also did this while also checking the position of the piston 1 on both engines and also checking that camshaft lobes are actuating on same valves on both engines.
What the h*&@ is happening with the harmonic balancer. As a mechanic and electronic specialized one, I know itll start, but it baffles me that the degrees or markings on the harmonic balancer do not match.
Any ideas?
Also would appreciate if someone has done this swap before, and has experience to share.
Thank you!!!
Check my pics hope it helps other people too! CLS500 lower pan removed, completely different lower and upper pan and oil pump from ML500. they interchange though. Engine is in pristine condition. My (ML500) upper and lower oil pan with my oil pump installed on the CLS500 egine. Freaking out starts when I "measure" the distance between edge of short block with edge of CLS500 pump, notice the distance between the edge of my finger and the edge of the chain Same "measure" from edge of short block on my ML500 and edge of pump chain, notice there is no gap between my finger and chain. I was convinced it was not going to work, and that I would have to open timing to check sprockets and chain length. To my surprise I test my ML500 pump on the CLS500 engine, same CLS chain, and end up measuring exactly the same installed on both engines, position of the pumps made it different? I dont know I was just glad that it fit perfect, same distance, same chain tension, exactly the same. 3 inches 1/32 on both engines YEY! Primitive but effective way to check that both cams are exactly on the same position. metal bar sits flat on edge of head (where valve cover sits) this pic is ML500, with cam here check flywheel pics Same primitive process just to make sure both cams are sitting on same position. With cam here check flywheel pics. With both engine cams on same position both flywheel positions match. this is ML500 With both engine cams on same position both flywheel positions match. this is CLS500
What is your vin#?
On the MB data card (you can obtain this using your vin # on any of the MB vin checkers), there should be an engine code for your ML.
There should also be an engine code at the top rear left (driver side) I think, stamped on the engine. Do a search to confirm it's location.
The one you purchased also has an engine # stamped on it. I would assume whom ever sold you the engine, verified with you or you checked for compatibility?
It should be a straight shoe-in.
I am no expert on this, but I recall several years back helping a friend's neighbor with his MB motor swap (E420) and it was straight forward swap unlike what you are describing.
Thanks for writing, where I purchased and everywhere I called, no one asked for vin, every single place just told me it was compatible, some told me about mounts, some told me about exhaust manifolds, some even told me about the oil pans, none told me about the flywheel, oil pump etc.
There is such little info about this, its unbelievable.
At this point Im sure itll start, ill even swap harmonic balancer. its just been a lot to interchange.
Thanks for writing, where I purchased and everywhere I called, no one asked for vin, every single place just told me it was compatible, some told me about mounts, some told me about exhaust manifolds, some even told me about the oil pans, none told me about the flywheel, oil pump etc.
There is such little info about this, its unbelievable.
At this point Im sure itll start, ill even swap harmonic balancer. its just been a lot to interchange.
Sorry to hear about your experience. :|
The yards will say whatever you want to hear (or sell to you with the least info they can provide so they can take away your hard earned $$).
w163s came in multiple flavors, even under the hood as some were buit here in NA, some brought in from Germany and also from Mexico. All had possibly some slight variation but end result, they met the EPA standards for NA.
Alot of other manufacturer vehicles go thru similar processes.
The first and last MB engine swap I participated in was a straight-on swap with minimal issues.
Like I wrote, I just kept going since engine looks so good. Every time I found something different I was like "thats it, Im returning it, then I opened something and it looked so clean!" By the end hopefully it'll be worth all the effort.
Thanks again!
So far, everything seems to be fine, definitely the things that need to be swapped.
1. Upper oil Pan
2. Lower oil Pan
3. Oil Pump, (just pump, chain stays the same from cls)
4. Dip Stick.
5, Remove dip stick mount from rear.
6. Ill be installing the original ML500 Harmonic Balancer.
7. Left and Right Exhaust Manifolds.
8. Left and Right engine supports/mounts.
9. Wiring Harness
So far, everything seems to be fine, definitely the things that need to be swapped.
1. Upper oil Pan
2. Lower oil Pan
3. Oil Pump, (just pump, chain stays the same from cls)
4. Dip Stick.
5, Remove dip stick mount from rear.
6. Ill be installing the original ML500 Harmonic Balancer.
7. Left and Right Exhaust Manifolds.
8. Left and Right engine supports/mounts.
9. Wiring Harness
Fyi. There are no dipsticks on the W163s; only the tube.
My 2002 ML500 has a dipstick as well as the electronic oil level measuring system.
Yes to the electronic oil level measuring system (I believe on 2002 and newer).
Pics of the dipstick would be nice. Never seen an 02 w163 with a dipstick already in place.
Yes to the electronic oil level measuring system (I believe on 2002 and newer).
Pics of the dipstick would be nice. Never seen an 02 w163 with a dipstick already in place.
All of them had oil dipsticks. You had to make your own tranny one though
So this is my first thread ever, anywhere. Its just frustrating how there is no information about engine interchangeability between models, someone posted once a list of engines and their differences that was found on an ebay listing, but thats all I have found, an they had older models there.
I purchased an overheated 2002 ML500, and have been looking for a low millage engine, after 1 month searching, I found an 70K mile engine from a 2006 CLS500 (everywhere it says its compatible, junkyards, ebay, used engine places etc).
I assumed there were going to be some parts swapping but not at the level Im into now.
I went ahead and purchased it, after removing my engine, I placed engines side by side. could see both engine mounts were different, exhaust manifolds were different. oil sensor positions were different, oil dip sticks were different, then looking further found lower and upper oil pans were different, when I opened them, oil pump was different.
After replacing all of the above, thanking god I did not have to remove timing to swap pump. I headed to what worried me most (stupid me I should have started there). The flywheel was different, and the bolt pattern was different so they could not be swapped, I removed the flywheels and placed them side by side, same height, diameter, hole count hole location (rectangle shaped one) just the stupid bold pattern that made them impossible to interchange.
So after changing the above parts, and putting old parts in my old engine I set them flat again, and aligned OT marking on harmonic balancer to the closest bolt to it from the serpentine belt tensioner. Other engine had slightly different marking but degrees were there, here is where the ordeal starts.
Both engine harmonic balancers aligned to the mentioned bolt, the flywheel and of course the flywheel dents or holes for the crankshaft sensor did not match position, one was 20 degrees off!! I started to freak out after all that work, I thought there were changes in the timing too!.
I took a deep breath and started analyzing the situation, to make a quick test I removed both spark plugs on cylinder 1 set both engines exactly at top dead center turned engine several times and tested several times to make sure engines pistons on both engines were at the same position, to my surprise, the flywheel positions match now!. I decided to go further and removed right valve covers on both engines to check the position of the cam that has the cam position sensor on, I turned the engine's crank to move the cam and check it in different locations, (see pictures where I got a flat peace of metal that I laid on the edge of the head and aligned to the thick square part of both cams) and again the flywheel marks matched positions!, I also did this while also checking the position of the piston 1 on both engines and also checking that camshaft lobes are actuating on same valves on both engines.
What the h*&@ is happening with the harmonic balancer. As a mechanic and electronic specialized one, I know itll start, but it baffles me that the degrees or markings on the harmonic balancer do not match.
Any ideas?
Also would appreciate if someone has done this swap before, and has experience to share.
Thank you!!!
Check my pics hope it helps other people too! CLS500 lower pan removed, completely different lower and upper pan and oil pump from ML500. they interchange though. Engine is in pristine condition. My (ML500) upper and lower oil pan with my oil pump installed on the CLS500 egine. Freaking out starts when I "measure" the distance between edge of short block with edge of CLS500 pump, notice the distance between the edge of my finger and the edge of the chain Same "measure" from edge of short block on my ML500 and edge of pump chain, notice there is no gap between my finger and chain. I was convinced it was not going to work, and that I would have to open timing to check sprockets and chain length. To my surprise I test my ML500 pump on the CLS500 engine, same CLS chain, and end up measuring exactly the same installed on both engines, position of the pumps made it different? I dont know I was just glad that it fit perfect, same distance, same chain tension, exactly the same. 3 inches 1/32 on both engines YEY! Primitive but effective way to check that both cams are exactly on the same position. metal bar sits flat on edge of head (where valve cover sits) this pic is ML500, with cam here check flywheel pics Same primitive process just to make sure both cams are sitting on same position. With cam here check flywheel pics. With both engine cams on same position both flywheel positions match. this is ML500 With both engine cams on same position both flywheel positions match. this is CLS500
i hate to tell you this, but you know it's a different engine that's in the CLS and the ML. Yes, the M113, but different variations. It would never be a straight swap.
i hate to tell you this, but you know it's a different engine that's in the CLS and the ML. Yes, the M113, but different variations. It would never be a straight swap.
That's what this thread is about, unfortunately, I haven't got feedback from someone who had actually done it or tried it. So far all parts have interchanged without issues, besides the time invested,. It hasn't been hard. I got my ml wiring plugged, what kept me from mounting the engine this weekend was rear engine coolant house that were in bad condition and I wanted to replace them, found out you can't buy them at any regular local auto parts. Had to go to an specific import car part store and had to order them they didn't even have them. If weather permits I'll be mounting engine on sat. To my knowledge there is absolutely no reason why this engine should not start.
Discovered, why harmonic balancer was off by about 20 degrees. Engine came from a wrecked car, harmonic balancer had a crack inside and shaved the wood ruff it rotated on the crank . replaced harmonic balancer and repaired the shaved woodruff (im was not taking the timing off)
Long story short. engine runs beautiful, everything that needs to be swapped from ML500 2002 M113 will fit the cls500 2006 M113 engine, everything.
Discovered, why harmonic balancer was off by about 20 degrees. Engine came from a wrecked car, harmonic balancer had a crack inside and shaved the wood ruff it rotated on the crank . replaced harmonic balancer and repaired the shaved woodruff (im was not taking the timing off)
Long story short. engine runs beautiful, everything that needs to be swapped from ML500 2002 M113 will fit the cls500 2006 M113 engine, everything.
I stand very corrected. Did not think was possible. Good job.
This is some great information! I am in the thick of everything you described. I had a question for you about the fly wheel. Is it possible to use the CLS fly wheel?
I have swapped out everything on your list. The CLS fly wheel will bolt to the ML transmission, but like you said, the ML fly wheel will not bolt to the CLS.
Also, you mentioned the harmonic balancer being swapped. Can I just use what came on the CLS?
I am almost ready to reinstall the engine and transmission. I need your help to clear up a couple of possible issues. This is the only information I can find on what I’m working on. I appreciate your time.
This is some great information! I am in the thick of everything you described. I had a question for you about the fly wheel. Is it possible to use the CLS fly wheel?
I have swapped out everything on your list. The CLS fly wheel will bolt to the ML transmission, but like you said, the ML fly wheel will not bolt to the CLS.
Also, you mentioned the harmonic balancer being swapped. Can I just use what came on the CLS?
I am almost ready to reinstall the engine and transmission. I need your help to clear up a couple of possible issues. This is the only information I can find on what I’m working on. I appreciate your time.
-Roy
You can leave the cls harmonic balancer, that's what I used, as for the flywheel, you say it bolts on the transmission? , Or bolts on the engine, in my case both flywheels had exactly the same dents f and location for dents or the crank sensor, for some reason the bolt pattern was different, this could differe from engine production year, just take them out and compare them if they are same diameter, and have the same dents configuration it will work.
Discovered, why harmonic balancer was off by about 20 degrees. Engine came from a wrecked car, harmonic balancer had a crack inside and shaved the wood ruff it rotated on the crank . replaced harmonic balancer and repaired the shaved woodruff (im was not taking the timing off)
Long story short. engine runs beautiful, everything that needs to be swapped from ML500 2002 M113 will fit the cls500 2006 M113 engine, everything.
I know it’s been years since but you’re saying I can swap the parts needed from my blown ml500 motor to the motor from different model car with m113 engine ? Like the oil pan , engine mount brackets , exhaust manifold’s ECT ? , thanks !
Yes an ML500 up to 2006 (m113) will fit swapping mounts, exhaust manifolds, and in some cases you will have to change your oil pump and oil pan
intersting ! . Turns out my w163 ml500 has a blown head gasket , I took it to a local shop & paid for a diagnostic, they want $6,800 to do the job it’s insanely stupid. So I’m going to attempt the job myself with a few kits from FCP euro ,they have a complete HG kit with valve stem seals , intake & exhaust gaskets EVERYTHING , also do timing chain kit & timing cover refresh kit , I know a few machine shops that can work on the heads if need be . I just want the job done right & replace every gasket I come across & old sensors / belt /thermostat /maybe injectors & ignition coils , definitely new spark plugs ect . I have a YouTube channel @TheLongRanger55 that I’ll probably document everything on I have a few videos already of my w211 e55 AMG , thanks 🙏
intersting ! . Turns out my w163 ml500 has a blown head gasket , I took it to a local shop & paid for a diagnostic, they want $6,800 to do the job it’s insanely stupid. So I’m going to attempt the job myself with a few kits from FCP euro ,they have a complete HG kit with valve stem seals , intake & exhaust gaskets EVERYTHING , also do timing chain kit & timing cover refresh kit , I know a few machine shops that can work on the heads if need be . I just want the job done right & replace every gasket I come across & old sensors / belt /thermostat /maybe injectors & ignition coils , definitely new spark plugs ect . I have a YouTube channel @TheLongRanger55 that I’ll probably document everything on I have a few videos already of my w211 e55 AMG , thanks 🙏
The price quoted for the repair is ridiculously high, the job your getting into is very intensive, time wise and pricewise, I would recommend finding a low mileage engine (these dont go bad and they are available at decent prices) I would purchase an engine, once I have it, replace front and rear seal, replace thermostat, do sparkplugs, install engine with new coolant hoses, and call it done. m113 and m112 are bullet proof, only way these break is by owner negligence.
The price quoted for the repair is ridiculously high, the job your getting into is very intensive, time wise and pricewise, I would recommend finding a low mileage engine (these dont go bad and they are available at decent prices) I would purchase an engine, once I have it, replace front and rear seal, replace thermostat, do sparkplugs, install engine with new coolant hoses, and call it done. m113 and m112 are bullet proof, only way these break is by owner negligence.
what do you have to say about this engine ? I can probably offer him less also .what would I need to change on the cl500 engine for it to fit in my ml500
The price quoted for the repair is ridiculously high, the job your getting into is very intensive, time wise and pricewise, I would recommend finding a low mileage engine (these dont go bad and they are available at decent prices) I would purchase an engine, once I have it, replace front and rear seal, replace thermostat, do sparkplugs, install engine with new coolant hoses, and call it done. m113 and m112 are bullet proof, only way these break is by owner negligence.
I was going to do that in the first place , but I can’t trust anyone to sell me a good motor over eBay . I went on fcp euro site & got an estimate for everything $770 for the head gasket kit , timing chain kit & all the gasket’s in the timing cover refresh kit except the valve cover gaskets because a set is included in the HG kit I noticed , So all I would need is all new cylinder head bolts , a thermostat , & front /rear seal . possibly new coolant hoses but I assume mine are still good. I would like new injectors, & NPboosted ignition coil packs I recently installed some on my w211 e55 m113k & live then if I don’t get another set for my m113 I’ll certainly use my original stock e55 coils because they are absolutely fine , I only mentioned the ignition coils because I noticed someone in the past replaced 1or2 of them with cheap Chinese ones that don’t even have any lettering! Btw
( I already have 16 new park plugs , coolant temp sensor, throttle position sensor )
So yes it’s a big job but considering it had 168k miles I do plan to keep this vehicle for a long time & have big plans in the future for more off-road camping road tips with my girlfriend since they got cut short when this happened to the vehicle.& I know I can do it for way less then I was quoted 🙏
11-10-2018, 08:05 PM
