kenleepearl

N_Jay asks the KEY question. The argument about what bearing is good/bad etc. etc. doesn't solve the deep question of why? In so many posts the deeper question of why? a defect-any defect is happening is never even explored. Trying to define (fix) a problem (i.e. the front diff problem), without at least exploring what is causing it, is just a guessing game, and not particularly helpful.

lasicm

Please look at my last post, posted below as well; it answers your question. Also take a look at photos of damaged original bearings.
As I mentioned earlier, races 503311 usually don’t have any damage; all damage was on 503349 cone rollers! After consulting quite few specialists, opinion was that this damage was combination of primary and secondary cause/damage which are internal debris contamination - wear from gears and high loads resulted in fatigue spalling. When you have bearing with bearing material fatigue at localized areas of sub-surface first advice is to stay away from material used for that bearing because bearing steel cleanness is questionable. Hope that this answers question why I replaced the original Polish cone with American or French one.

kenleepearl

Thanks-is does answer it-BUT where is M-b's durability testing on these diffs. Why aren't these diffs able to handle the heft of daily road use, and/or potential occasional off road use of an ML? The 164's are plagued with parts that can't stand up to the heft of the truck-i.e. the steering rack/pump, the valve body on the trans etc. Does the 4matic system put especially hard demands on the front diffs of the ML's? Aren't gear wear/bearing material fatigue tested to see if they stand up in the ML front diffs? Here's the way I see the problem. Honda and Toyota demand that all suppliers work intimately with them as they design a car, and all components are rigorously tested as part of that process. Mercedes just farms out to suppliers the components needed with certain specifications that have to be met. They have had (it has changed in the last few years) poor control over the quality of these components, and the W164's, especially the 2006's, are proof of these failures. (balance shafts, valve bodies, diff bearings, turbo seals, rear tail light seals etc. etc.) Also the ML's are too complex in design. I have two friends who drive high mileage MDX's, one with over 200000K, and none of ever seen codes pop up on their vehicles, and both have had almost no major problems. The electrical systems in the 164's are an accident waiting to happen, and the placement of the electrical components are placed where any water, leaks etc. can short out the whole system. The MDX does not suffer from these problems as their design is simpler, and more protective of their electrical components. Honda and Toyota in general, have in the past, a much closer relationship with their suppliers in the design and testing of components, something which M-B in the past has failed to do.

N_Jay

The MDX is a very different system on a much lighter vehicle.


Still seems odd, did they design the Diff around an undersized bearing?
Is there something unique in the design that either overloads or under lubricates the bearing?
If it was contamination during assembly, I would expect to see some sign of wear on the race.


Since the only damage showing is fatigue spalling of the rollers, did MB get a bad batch? Are all bearings of this model and source failing specifications?

lasicm

Jay, a lot of questions that only Mercedes can answer. They completely distanced themselves from this issue and let dealers to deal with it. Dealers will sometimes take loss, depending if you are a loyal customer, first owner etc. but since this issue occurs mostly after warranty expires, most customers are told to hitch hike.
ML350 also has a balance shaft issue, which is even bigger that differential one. Transmission is disaster as well. This complete car should have been recalled. I owned Mercdes cars for over 30 years, anything from C, E, S, SL, ML etc. hands down, this is the car with the most issues.

lasicm

Dear forum members
Even-though I knew the answers to these questions/statements, I was waiting on Timken response to eliminate any doubts. I am posting the original text from their emails:

1. Thank you for your inquiry. I’ve researched the part numbers included in your inquiry and found that both combinations will work. LM503349 paired with KLM503311, or paired with LM 503310. LM503349 is currently available and interchangeable with KLM503349. KLM503311 is currently not available but will be available to ship 11/08/13.
My comment is that few years ago people even used 503349/310 bearing with different shim and finished the job successfully !!!

2. KLM503311 is currently not available but will be available to ship 11/08/13.
Obviously race can be bought, and is sold separately! I am not selling it separately but I am selling it paired with cones.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/MERCEDES-W16...-/181149228678

3. ISO Class refers to a line of metric bearings we manufacture, the core of which were designed to meet ISO/R 355. Since then, we have expanded the line into customized, flanged, and modified bearings as well as ISO/R 355 bearings. It is our product.
I asked why 503349/311 comes without ISO mark, and 503311 has it on the box.
Both are metric nominated bearings. The differences in packaging are just marketing, which changes frequently both over time and by region.
Thank you for your business and your inquiry

4. I still have some Polish complete sets left and I will have them for customers asking for them specifically but after the latest findings about the reason for this failure, I am dropping Polish cone. French will still be available for short time and then it will be Polish race and American cone combo, as approved by the manufacturer and recommended by mechanics and engineers that analyzed failed cones.
I hope that this helps!

lasicm

The best source for W164 front differential repair kit, the most kits sold, the best customer review with 100% satisfaction, the cheapest original equipment
http://www.ebay.com/itm/MERCEDES-W164-ML-R-W251-FRONT-DIFFERENTIAL-4-BEARINGS-COMPLETE-KIT-WITH-503311-/181149228503?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item2a2d55ddd7&vxp=mtr

fredfred

Hello, thesis my first time on any car forum. Please excuse my ignorance of terms etc.

I have a 2008 c230 Mercedes. It has the exact problem everyone is talking about on this thread.

Front differential grinding noise. Diagnosed as the barring.

Mercedes wants me to change the whole transmission (saying that is the only option)

Reading this thread - will those bearing numbers work for my year and model? I want to make sure I do not cause more issues and cost then needed.

It would be great to be able to take the information to a mechanic and show them that is what would work.. As most do not seem to have too much experience with this issue.

I am worried that something will break in there and cause more damage if I don't get this fixed ASAP

Thanks for your help.

N_Jay

I doubt the C230 has the same differential or bearings.


A good drive line shop may be able to get you the bearings and do the rebuild, but that is a guess.


I would ask the question in the C forum.
https://mbworld.org/forums/c-class-w204-83/

fredfred

Thanks for the reply and the link to the right thread -

C230 Sport Coup

Death to the infidels! I mean, are either of you chuckleheads SPONSORS on this site?
And you carry on like this? Really?

In any case, my GF has a 2006 ML which has a horrific noise coming from the front, and
she has kept driving it for some time, and I'm guessing it something of this nature.
I originally thought it was perhaps it just the tires, but now I'm guessing this is the issue.

Is there a video somewhere of what this sounds like from inside the cab?
Where would be good place to have this work done in the SF bay area?

Personally, why would I want to replace the crappy bearing that were in there with the same crappy ones? Are there better quality ones to replace the crappy ones?

fredfred

Sorry no video of the sound.

You should hear it between the gear shift and the radio area.

I just started another thread for it over here. Maybe continue the question there, hoping someone will reply.

https://mbworld.org/forums/c-class-w...ml#post6049412

lasicm

Amen to this. Talking about ML w164 front differential I see many people falling victims on Mercedes forums and eBay and buying same crappy Polish cone 503349 that destroyed front differential. American version of Timken 503349 along with Polish race 503311 which is irrelevant in this application is offered here: http://www.ebay.com/itm/MERCEDES-W164-ML-R-W251-FRONT-DIFFERENTIAL-4-BEARINGS-COMPLETE-KIT-WITH-503311-/181149228503?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item2a2d55ddd7&vxp=mtr

fredfred

Lasicm, thanks for the link to the bearings.

I looked at the list for compatible cars - my model was not on it. Can you recommend which one I get for my model please.

2008 c230

Thanks

C230 Sport Coup

FF,
Mercedes didn't sell a C230 in the USA in 2008 so you must be elsewhere, correct? Can you please update your profile to say at least the country you hail from? Makes it a lot easier to help out a fellow forum member.
So, you have a C230 4matic?
I didn't think they even made one. Certainly not available here in the USA.

You'll want to head over the W204 forum if your car is a 2008.
My forte is more on the W203, so hopefully you'll get an answer over there.

fredfred

Location updated.

I live in canada.

I have tried every search possible, and cannot find anything on bearings for my car.

I will try the other forum - thanks

C230 Sport Coup

I found my bearings without going through these chuckleheads for a better price, a kit that included the seals which are definitely needed by searching on KLM503349 on ebay.
Will have pics of the bad bearings soon, ML is in the shop!
Meanwhile here's the link. Scroll down for the link to the kit with the seals.

MERCEDES W164 ML R GL FRONT DIFFERENTIAL REBUILD KIT NOT SOLD IN US KLM503311

lasicm

I would definitely like to see photo of KLM503311, out of box and also holographic seal on the back of 50331 box. This posting does not pass smell test.

C230 Sport Coup

The only thing that smells is you. The only posts you ever posted were purely for your own profit. I've helped a lot of people over the years and my many thousands of posts reflect that.

lasicm

http://www.ebay.com/itm/MERCEDES-W164-ML-R-W251-FRONT-DIFFERENTIAL-4-BEARINGS-COMPLETE-KIT-WITH-503311-/181149228503?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item2a2d55ddd7&vxp=mtr

benzexpert

Old thread but to answer the above question, the issue is complex but for certain lubrication is one that probably has a lot to with it.

In looking over the maint. schedule I don't see front differential oil
replacement anywhere. See attached. I would say regular oil changes would definitely help.
And if you should need bearings, check out this new website.

iansilv

Anyone with a 2010 350ml having this problem? Or is this limited to earlier years?

RC121

I'm also curious, as it seems limited to the 2006's but I've got a 2011 due for it's 60K service and am wondering if I need to add anything with the differentials to the tranny flush, etc.

C230 Sport Coup

I would.

Kennyr

I just got my 2006 ML350 back from a tranny shop. They installed the bearing and seal kit I bought on ebay. All the bearings and races. The car is quiet again and the steering wheel doesn't have the vibration feedback feel when you put your hand on the top of horn pad. I paid $300 for the bearings and seals and $710 to the tranny shop for the labor. They saved me the old bearings and they were pitted real bad, which I already knew since I drained all the metal out of the diff. Owning a 2006 ML is challenging to say the least. Pretty much a piece of crap but they sure are nice cars to drive.