MinnBobber

[QUOTE=GregW / Oregon; .... That, together with the more limited availability of diesel, is making me rethink my choice for the diesel. If diesel fuel prices in the US were more like Canada or Europe it would be a no-brainer.[/QUOTE]

Same here. I really wanted to go with a diesel but it's tough when diesel is 80 cents more per gal than premium here. When gas prices are higher, the spread is sometimes only 20/30 cents. I do think the diesel will hold it's resale value better down the road.

For gasser midsize SUVs, the ML350 would be near top of list. Another (odd) top contender IMO is the VW Touareg Hybrid. Not because of the "hybrid", but in spite of the hybrid component. That Audi-based supercharged V6 is a great motor. It's listed at 330 HP but folks are reporting that it dynos at more like 360 HP. I wish it was offered as a stand alone engine option in Touareg and Audi Q5.
And it gets good gas mileage.

GregW / Oregon

80 cents? Where are you located (add to your profile). You're right about resale.

GregW / Oregon

The Touareg Hybrid is only rated at 20/24 mpg. 0-60 is 6.2, though, which is pretty good. $61k base is high, but includes lots of standard features. Unfortunately, I believe resale on the Touraegs is pretty bad. I agree that offering the 333 hp supercharged V6 without the electric part would be a good option.

GregW / Oregon

I'm a little confused by the http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/findacar.htmhttp://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/findacar.htm figures. If you compare the 350 gas and diesel side-by-side, the diesel gets about 15% better mileage (55/45 split) but uses virtually the same amount of petroleum per year and has virtually the same carbon footprint. Anyone have any insights?

GregW / Oregon

I have a BlueTEC on order, but I'm a little confused by the Find a CarFind a Car figures. If you compare the 350 gas and diesel side-by-side, the diesel gets about 15% better mileage (55 city/45 hwy split) but uses virtually the same amount of petroleum per year and has virtually the same carbon footprint. Anyone have any insights? I thought I was doing the "right thing" with the diesel, but these figures are unconvincing that the extra $1,500 is worth it with the diesel prices as they are in the US (same or higher than premium).

DC-IT

Greg.
The real world FE of the Diesel is better than that.
I would find out the driving range for a tank of gas vs diesel.
For example my ML can consistently get 600 Mile per tank (+900KM).
I wonder what is the range for a gas ML?
The huge torque is what attracts me to the ML BlueTec.

It is interesting to note that here in Canada 80% ML are Diesel!

If you typically drive highways and do a higher mileage than the normal driver then the Diesel is the better vehicle.

My fuel costs used to be +$900.00 per month.
Now that I have switched all my vehicles to Diesel it's almost half of that!

If you cover less than 15,000 miles per year then the gas version would be the better choice.

For me, after experiencing the benefits of a Diesel vehicle I will never buy another gas vehicle.

GregW / Oregon

Here is the comparison on FuelEconomy.gov. It's based on 15,000 miles per year and 55% city/45% hiwghway. You can change the mileage, mileage split and fuel cost.

GregW / Oregon

Doing the calcs from the table above, the diesel uses 107 gallons less/year than the gas, yet has virtually the same barrels used figure. Is there something in the refining process that influences this? I thought diesel fuel as less refined than gas.

GregW / Oregon

I emailed FuelEconomy.gov last night two questions:

1. Per your data (attached) the diesel uses 107 gallons less fuel per
year, but the barrels used is virtually identical? Please explain. I thought diesel was easier to refine.

2. The CO2 output between the two is also almost identical, despite
the lesser fuel usage of the diesel and I thought lower CO2 content of diesel.

I got this resopnse this morning (impresseive turnaround):

"Thank you for contacting us. The EPA has a webpage that discusses the calculation of CO2 from a gallon of gasoline and a gallon of diesel. A gallon of diesel produces more CO2 than a gallon of gasoline so, even though the diesel ML350 uses fewer gallons, the difference in CO2 output isn't as great as you may expect. The link and relevant content is pasted below:

http://www.epa.gov/otaq/climate/420f...tm#calculating

Calculating CO2 emissions
The Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) guidelines for calculating emissions inventories require that an oxidation factor be applied to the carbon content to account for a small portion of the fuel that is not oxidized into CO2. For all oil and oil products, the oxidation factor used is 0.99 (99 percent of the carbon in the fuel is eventually oxidized, while 1 percent remains un-oxidized.)[1.]

Finally, to calculate the CO2 emissions from a gallon of fuel, the carbon emissions are multiplied by the ratio of the molecular weight of CO2 (m.w. 44) to the molecular weight of carbon (m.w.12): 44/12.

CO2 emissions from a gallon of gasoline = 2,421 grams x 0.99 x (44/12) = 8,788 grams = 8.8 kg/gallon = 19.4 pounds/gallon

CO2 emissions from a gallon of diesel = 2,778 grams x 0.99 x (44/12) = 10,084 grams = 10.1 kg/gallon = 22.2 pounds/gallon

Note: These calculations and the supporting data have associated variation and uncertainty. EPA may use other values in certain circumstances, and in some cases it may be appropriate to use a range of values.

Additionally, our website's emissions values are calculated based on Argonne National Laboratory's GREET Model (http://greet.es.anl.gov/) which includes upstream emissions including extraction, processing and fuel distribution. The EPA publishes tailpipe only emissions which is quite different. The processes associated with refining diesel fuel have increased in recent years as the U.S. has transitioned from diesel with a sulfur content of 500 parts per million to the new Ultra Low Sulfur Diesel with a sulfur content of just 15 parts per million. This new Ultra Low Sulfur Diesel became mandatory at the end of 2010. It's been our observation from user feedback that the EPA test cycles tend to undervalue diesels particularly if you are doing a lot of highway driving. Many diesel owners report exceeding the EPA ratings so the diesel may well be better than the numbers show.

If you are interested, the EPA also has a website called the Green Vehicle Guide which shows pollution and emission scores based on tailpipe emission:
http://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/Index.do

I hope that some of this information may be helpful.

Sincerely,

www.fueleconomy.gov

Fongletez

Impressive response!! That government worker needs recognition for doing their job well!

MinnBobber

Today, premium was 3.34 and diesel was 4.29 here in St. Paul.
There goes all of the diesel mileage advantage, ........

GregW / Oregon

Wow, fuel prices are weird. We're still pushing $4.00 for premium, with diesel above that!

GregW / Oregon

Dang, missed my chance to drive a '12 BlueTEC today. Salesman called to say someone had backed out of an order after it arrived. I went out immediately and someone was looking at it - they bought it before I got my hands on it.

jweezy

We are all talking about gas mileage as if it is not a variable. Some gas users could get a lower mileage than another gas owner. Same with diesel, it depends on the highway use, and city use, and hills, and traffic, A/C things like that so it also depends on where you live. How many people are in the car, and your average speed.

I have a brand new ML350 (Gas), and I average about 23.0 – 23.5 with every tank. I have only filled up 2.5 this month, which is good for me(with my last car I filled up every week @ 19 gallons...Dodge Charger Daytona at $70x4 = $280 for gas)

Note: The half tank was a trip for Thanksgiving

Now with my ML350 I have filled up twice and each cost about $82, so I should be saving about $120 a month. With both tanks getting me 1st (520 miles) and my 2nd (550 miles)

I don't drive much highway, a lot of going through country and stop and go in my work area (city)

Please base the MPGs on a variable, not a set in stone this is what you will get because this is what he is getting.

For me we live in the city area and not every gas station has Diesel, I want my girl to drive the ML sometimes so I didn't want her to run out of gas looking for a station that may or not have Diesel. Gas did it for me, and it does very good for me.

I thought I would want the TQ, which I really did, until I went up a 12 ft dirt/grass hill at a pretty good incline and this gas V6 engine did it very well. I am sure the diesel probably does a better job, and what it seems like is that the diesel does better on real-world highway...if it is a straight (no hills, dips and such) road/highway/street I can get as high as 27-28 mpg...going at a steady speed. However if not, it’s at about 22...which really annoys me because there are not many 0 degree roads in the DC metro area.

It's funny because if a random person was to read this thread, they would be like "Why are these rich folk complaining about the cost of gas"...which I think we are not...its just conversation as to some really want to see if the diesels would be worth the $1500 am I correct?

If gas was a very big concern I doubt we would be driving 50k - 60k SUVs...our asses would be driving Volts, or a Prius (not a leaf, those things are ugly as hell)

Remember, during the reviews I have noticed that the reviewers do point out the gas engine is smoother and idles smoother & less noisy than the diesel...they do say in the same sentences that the diesel, however idles very good compared to the competition.

So even though the combined rating on the ML350 is 19, I have not gotten below 23 myself.

And if you want to talk about money, please include the cost of the Adhoc that needs to be done every 2K? or is it 3K…

I really wish our cars had that TQ, my RPMs go to about 2000-2200 when going up hills.

Oh well, I got my ML350 with Package 1, wood trim and a couple other options on Holloween for 46K. They was not giving much money off the diesels

harvid

Going to pick up a new ML350 BT on Thursday evening to replace my R320BT coming off of lease. Not much haggling available on this car as they are in short supply at this point. As above, it was a car that just came in that someone backed out of at the last minute. It was the only one here at the dealership in London, Ontario. With the premium package, metallic paint ("free" in Canada) and the passive driver assist, it weighs in at $66,525 (looks like the premium package in Canada takes in p1 and p2 on the US cars). Priced the same car on the MB USA site and they are within $3000 of each other.

Driving it compared to the R was revealing. A lot less road noise on the ML with regular tires compared to the run flats on the R (I'll be happy to be rid of those buggers!). A lot more refined and the extra power was obvious. The 7speed on the ML was infinitely smoother than the R and the "pregnant pauses" that were apparent when accelerating from a stop in the R are absent in the new ML.

Sign the papers tomorrow and take delivery on Thursday night.

GregW / Oregon

I have instigated a lot of discussion on a couple forums about gas versus diesel because I've never owned a diesel, and the concept seems suited to a "truck." I haven't really been that concerned about fuel cost savings, but more about range between fillups and environmental aspects. From a cost perspective, at least for where I live and how we drive (~10k mi/yr, urban/suburban, high fuel prices) the best I could hope for in 6 years of ownership is a break even with the gas version. Range is definitely a plus for the oil burner, with perhaps 700 miles range on trips. On the downside, diesel is harder to find in the city.

Per the fuel economy.gov website, much to my surprise there is no clear advantage for the diesel, despite its higher mileage. They admit the mileage rating per the EPA may be conservative, but still not compelling. Resale value does seem to be in the diesel's favor, but maintenance is higher (AdBlue onlue needs to be replaced about every 10k, though). Then there's the quality inconsistency of diesel fuel sources to consider.

It's good to hear you're getting 23+ with the new gas model; I've never seen that high with my '06, even on the highway (I tend to drive a little fast, though). While I have a BlueTEC on order, I'm starting to lean toward the BlueEFFICIENCY.

jweezy

I have been driving a lot more because of some family things, and I am going to fill up today. Looks like with this one I got 495 miles and I avg. 21.5 mpg...good bye to not going below 23 mpg. its only 1.5 mpg anyway...ah well...I'm not worried about it breaking the bank it was just the coolness factor, that I am averaging better MPG than a 4x4 explorer, MDX and the new ecoboost ford F150s. The difference between getting 19 and 23 mpg is like $20 total at the end of the month.

10k for adblue? I read in a article you go through 1 gallon of the stuff every 2,200 miles. So that the ML350D holds 4.x gallons of it?

This is what I found from an review:

Fuel economy is a diesel advantage. EPA fuel economy numbers are 20 city, 25 highway, 3 MPG better than the gasoline engine. These saving are easily eaten away by the price of AdBlue and diesel fuel that seems to average 20 cents more per gallon than premium gasoline in Seattle. Trust me though, you’ll love the torque.

Full Review - http://drivencarreviews.com/2011/09/...-video-review/


My opinion is, don't get the D if you are attempting to try and save money...get the D, if having a huge amount of torque is what you need. I bought my ML350 to get around in the dirt,snow and haul my future family around. Regardless, its only 1,500 more, your already spending at least 50k, looking at the D as a money saving option shouldn't really be the case. It should be hey, I need the diesel because I like the feel of the engine, the torque at low RPM, or you may want some extra TQ when pulling a trailer. I would expect the diesels to get better MPG when pulling a trailer, or going up a dirt hill.

Oh yea, to get 700 miles on one fill up means you would have to average about 29 MPG for the entire tank. If thats possible, D members chim in...the coolness factor is something to be very happy about.

I am not trying to differ your options, not my intention...I came here looking for information before I bought mine. So I am hoping others find the information useful. However, make your own decisions and really come to a conclusion on what you need. Truthfully, you really can't go wrong on any option of the ML350, just a drop dead sexy SUV, and a REAL SUV, not no lifted station wagon, like the new Explorers, and almost every Toyota, and Honda.

jweezy

In a previous post there is a chart and it states that diesel is cheaper than gas, so would then be a cheaper option?

For me and most people who live in USA, it is not that way.


Check here...http://fuelgaugereport.aaa.com/?redi....com/index.asp

I live in VA, and Diesel is about 30 cents more. So to fill up my tank it would cost a little more than $7 bucks. I fill up about 2 twice a month so it would only cost me $14 more each month to have a Diesel. Not bad really, $14 bucks is nothing even on the year its only about $170 bucks.

This month it looks like I have filled up 3.5 times this month, so having a D would cost me an extra $26 dollars this month. I understand that diesels get more MPG so I would be able to go longer, however after thinking about it. Even though if I had the D, I may not have to fill up today, though I would have to fill up tomorrow same with each other fill up, thus making me still fill 3.5 times this month.




StateRegularMidPremiumDiesel

Virginia

$3.196
$3.372
$3.500 (93)
$3.825 (diesel)

AZHiker

Diesel versus gas is personal preference. I've done quite a bit of off road (not rock crawling) and towing. All of my vehicles have been 4x4 with 2 speed transfer case. I owned a 3/4 ton Diesel PU to pull a large boat. All of my other vehicles have been gas. My wife drives a TDI VW. To me diesel is much much better drive than a gasser. Today's gas engines are low torque high rev engines (all aluminum). My wife's TDI goes over passes in overdrive. My new 3.5L gasser goes over the same passes at 5K rpm. Whether you're passing, climbing hills, towing, or going off road the torque is your friend. Many complain that diesel is lower horsepower, however look at the rpm at which it achieves the hp. Then convert to the hp developed at cruising rpm's. You'll see the gasser has no advantage when it comes to power. Then look at the mechanics of it. Some say diesel has about 2/3rds the moving parts as a corresponding gasoline engine, maybe that excludes the fuel pump. But, diesel generally requires less maintenance and traditionally lasts longer.

Availability and cost of fuel, now that's a different story. USA oil companies seem to have made the decision moons ago to not expand diesel. Its less expensive to refine than gasoline and it produces 1.15 times more energy per volume than gasoline. It should be cheaper, but supply and demand rule the day. Today, in the midwest, its particularly scarce because of (temporary?) high-use of diesel in ND.

I hope this helps. Having driven and owned both, for me there's no question. I'm looking at a ML350 BlueTec.

jweezy

I understand your point. I just want to make sure that I don't offend the diesel owners when in my comments above.

I understand in the diesel cars, the mpg is very much a great increase over the gas version. So, in that case it would be very understanding to go with a diesel for fuel cost savings.

Thats only the point I was trying to make in my above statments. The D vs. G fuel savings in our MLs is really not a very obvious reason to buy the car. I stated previously, if you need the TQ best option is the diesel.

I even search high and low in MB specs and information to see if they state the cost saving benefits of the two. However, they only state you can go up to 600 miles with a diesel. Never anything about how much money or could be saved. When I first went on the market for an ML350 my intention was to get a diesel, however after going and search which gas stations offered diesel...I really didn't want my girlfriend or I searching for not just a gas station, but a diesel gas station.

I am actually looking forward to next year, rumors are floating around stating that the ML350 will have a hybrid next year that will be part diesel and hybrid technology. That should be very cool...

MinnBobber

In previous search for info on ML hybrid, one source says it will be "plug in" hybrid with lithium ion battery and ability to go 25/30 miles on battery power.
With diesel or gasser engine, that would be cool.
Current VW Touareg hybrid can only go about 3 miles on battery but does have an awesome (IMO) gasser motor, 3 liter supercharged V6 with 330 HP/ 380 HP when coupled with electric motor. That's a tempting rig that I don't believe has caught on--maybe becuase of the $61K price.
But ML can be WELL above 61K with options.

In MN where diesel is plus 80 cents above premium

Shrdlu

Interesting piece in the Wall St. Journal this a.m.

"U.S. exports of gasoline, diesel and other oil-based fuels are soaring, putting the nation on track to be a net exporter of petroleum products in 2011 for the first time in 62 years. A combination of booming demand from emerging markets and faltering domestic activity means the U.S. is exporting more fuel than it imports, upending the historical norm . . ."

All of which is keeping prices high.

We are still the largest net importer of crude oil, though, so energy independence won't come anytime soon.

jweezy

I really like this statement.

If the next ML hybrid is 25-30 pure battery...that will be the day I trade in.

I would be able to get to work on battery, and I could talk to my job about providing me a plug to charge (it will influence others)...and I could get home without ever using a drop of gas.

I could have the SUV I always wanted, yet save money...thats a win-win.

Thats for providing this information, I didn't know it would be a plug in. Thats really cool, and if it is a plug-in I would be able to get a tax write off (7500) right?

jweezy

61K for a VW? That is amazing.

45K Toyota Highlanders...

45K Honda Pilots...

WHAT THE HELL IS THE WORLD COMING TOO!!!!

MinnBobber

In searching more, the plug in next gen ML hybrid projected max miles on battery would be 30 KM (not 30 miles), sorry about that. So about 18 miles which would still be great.
Keep in mind that all the info is speculation and mother Mercedes could pull the plug on any of these if they desire.

The internal combustion engine mated to the electrics seems to have several speculated possibilities, like a small 4 cylinder diesel, 3.5 liter gasser, and even a 3.5 L twin turbo gasser in one article.
Time will tell.