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M275 V12 Bi-Turbo Platform Technical discussion relating to models sharing the M275 V12 Bi-Turbo (V12 TT). Including SL600, SL65 AMG, CL600, CL65 AMG, S600, S65 AMG.
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Cooling down the V12TT

 
Old 11-08-2011, 10:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Becks Imports View Post
My experience in a cramped engine bay like this one is that water/meth injection is the most efficient solution from cost, engineering, and complexity aspects.

Lowering IATs does not really make horsepower. What it does as Formula says is allow you to keep the horsepower you're making and not heat soak, which is when the ECU pulls timing and you lose power.

I have a lot of track time with an Audi turbo using Aquamist. While some things do not translate directly, I was running 28psi of boost (correct, almost 2BAR) for hundreds of laps one after the other at Watkins Glen and other places.

The Aquamist system I used (and there are lots of choices) pulled 100 degrees fahrenheit out of the IAT. It was better than using 100 octane race gas, which has a higher ignition temp and is therefore less susceptible to detonation, which is what lowering IATs accomplishes. When the car detonates (fuel mixture pre-ignites), the ECU immediately pulls timing and boost to compensate, so you lose power.

With straight-from-KMart blue washer fluid at 99 cents a gallon (blue washer fluid is half methanol at 114 octane and half water which is the best liquid to remove heat), the difference was incredible. The few times the tank ran dry and I lost the water injection, it was like someone pulled 75HP out of the car. Plus you can tune for WI, and advance timing knowing you do not have the same heat/pre-ignition issues to deal with. That's why some companies will give you tunes for 91, 93, 94, and/or 100 octane. They can increase boost and advance timing more at the higher octanes. Blue washer fluid is perfect for that if injected in an atomized mist about 6 inches forward of the intake manifold.

It's cheap, engineering is not complex, it works, and it's not hard to remove if needed. I lkoved it when I ran with it, huge difference, no heat soak, and cheap to buy/install/run.

Bruce
Guys if getting these V12TT to run cooler does NOT increase HP / TQ then please explain why my car pulls SO HARD when its colder outside. We have dipped into the high 40's a few nights now and man can I tell a difference, it sure feels like an increase in HP / TQ


Bruce great post lots of info, not many Mercedes guys going with these systems that I have seen, I wonder why ?
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Old 11-08-2011, 11:27 AM
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It's going to be nearly impossible to lower the IATs below ambient no matter what you do (short of chemical cooling or ice in a reservoir).

Being that you can't get below ambient, then your goal is to keep IAT as close to ambient as possible. That won't make you more power...but it will help you retain your power. Dyno your car while it's cold; then go drive it around, make a couple full throttle runs, and then go dyno it again...you'll see what I mean.

As in - you know how your car pulls really hard at 40*? Well, you're goal is to keep it performing like that even if you're in the throttle for a sustained period.
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Old 11-09-2011, 05:17 PM
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The dark pictures (2,3,4) are of my intake. If the car is stationary for a long period of time or in stop and go traffic it seems like it does becomes heat soaked. With my kleemann tune with stock air boxes and filters I would never get above 20lbs of boost at low rpm's. With this set up it will get up to 21.6. I believe it drops to around 16 near red line. That is, until I i get some speedriven turbos The turbos are loud with this set up as well as the bov's. not ricey, but sound good.

As far as cooling i put in a larger front heat exchanger with the meziere pump and that made a noticable gain.
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Old 11-09-2011, 05:27 PM
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Originally Posted by stockC43 View Post
The dark pictures (2,3,4) are of my intake. If the car is stationary for a long period of time or in stop and go traffic it seems like it does becomes heat soaked. With my kleemann tune with stock air boxes and filters I would never get above 20lbs of boost at low rpm's. With this set up it will get up to 21.6. I believe it drops to around 16 near red line. That is, until I i get some speedriven turbos The turbos are loud with this set up as well as the bov's. not ricey, but sound good.

As far as cooling i put in a larger front heat exchanger with the meziere pump and that made a noticable gain.
Thanks for jumping in I was wondering if you would notice, hope you don't mind me posting your photos.

How much HP / TQ does the added 1.6 boost make ?

What HE did you got with, what size where id you get it ?

Thanks
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Old 11-10-2011, 05:58 AM
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Originally Posted by stockC43 View Post
The dark pictures (2,3,4) are of my intake. If the car is stationary for a long period of time or in stop and go traffic it seems like it does becomes heat soaked. With my kleemann tune with stock air boxes and filters I would never get above 20lbs of boost at low rpm's. With this set up it will get up to 21.6. I believe it drops to around 16 near red line. That is, until I i get some speedriven turbos The turbos are loud with this set up as well as the bov's. not ricey, but sound good.

As far as cooling i put in a larger front heat exchanger with the meziere pump and that made a noticable gain.
down pipes?, gutted cats? trunk resovoir? what size/part number on the k&n's? i have that same setup now going from SD intake, but i run no filtlers(track only) mated to the stock air scoops-you can really here the turbos now. next is meth, then prob add. HE and meziure
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Old 11-10-2011, 11:25 PM
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Originally Posted by 1995E320Cab View Post
Thanks for jumping in I was wondering if you would notice, hope you don't mind me posting your photos.

How much HP / TQ does the added 1.6 boost make ?

What HE did you got with, what size where id you get it ?

Thanks
No, I don't mind. To be honest I have no idea how much power difference it made. It may of even lost power for all I know by sucking in hot air. I never did any before and after dyno runs or passes down the strip. Also that is at low rpm. Only useful in first gear or rolling into the throttle in fourth or fifth gear. It does bother me a little sucking in hot air but there is just no room in these cars for much else. I have thought about going the brabus route and cutting holes in my hood but I don't think I want to go that far. I do like that set up on that brabus v12 glk? at the bottom. looks like they cut the core support and are pulling cold air off of the grill. I have to take a look at my 220 to see if that's a possibility to make something like that for my car.

As far as the HE, I fabbed it up my self. I got the core cheap. I believe it was for either a 03 cobra or a lightning pick up. I dont have the exact measurements but it is big, actually slightly too big. I had to trim some brackets and dimple the top of the core to clear a abc line.

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The exhaust is all stock except for the rear muffler delete. I was going to do down pipes with 100 cel cats however speedriven is working on something very interesting and I am holding off on any more mods until this prototype setup is ready for sale. Were talking BIG power numbers!

I would be careful not running filters! I have seen two cars ware the stock filter housings werent sitting on the turbos properly, they sucked in dirt and destroyed the barrings and impellers in the turbos. I'm not sure on the pn for the filters however I remember that they are for a aftermarket intake for Harley's. On k&n's web site they list the sizes of every filter and cfm they make on a list. just a pain to find what fits. usually motorcycle or snowmobile filters are the right size.







Never mind the missing grill, I'm in the middle of buffing the car but this gives you a idea of the size.

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Old 11-10-2011, 11:46 PM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by Becks Imports View Post
My experience in a cramped engine bay like this one is that water/meth injection is the most efficient solution from cost, engineering, and complexity aspects.

Lowering IATs does not really make horsepower. What it does as Formula says is allow you to keep the horsepower you're making and not heat soak, which is when the ECU pulls timing and you lose power.

I have a lot of track time with an Audi turbo using Aquamist. While some things do not translate directly, I was running 28psi of boost (correct, almost 2BAR) for hundreds of laps one after the other at Watkins Glen and other places.

The Aquamist system I used (and there are lots of choices) pulled 100 degrees fahrenheit out of the IAT. It was better than using 100 octane race gas, which has a higher ignition temp and is therefore less susceptible to detonation, which is what lowering IATs accomplishes. When the car detonates (fuel mixture pre-ignites), the ECU immediately pulls timing and boost to compensate, so you lose power.

With straight-from-KMart blue washer fluid at 99 cents a gallon (blue washer fluid is half methanol at 114 octane and half water which is the best liquid to remove heat), the difference was incredible. The few times the tank ran dry and I lost the water injection, it was like someone pulled 75HP out of the car. Plus you can tune for WI, and advance timing knowing you do not have the same heat/pre-ignition issues to deal with. That's why some companies will give you tunes for 91, 93, 94, and/or 100 octane. They can increase boost and advance timing more at the higher octanes. Blue washer fluid is perfect for that if injected in an atomized mist about 6 inches forward of the intake manifold.

It's cheap, engineering is not complex, it works, and it's not hard to remove if needed. I lkoved it when I ran with it, huge difference, no heat soak, and cheap to buy/install/run.

Bruce
I cant believe no one has responded to this. If this is accurate thats one of the most cost effective and overall effective mods we could do to combat rising IAT's. Why spend $5k for bigger intercoolers and H/E's if you can leave it all stock and just install a kit like this for practically nothing.

Regarding the section i highlighted, did you actually confirm this claim via datalogs? Is this similar to "meth injection" a lot of guys use?

I can see this being effective at the roadrace track, the gains you claim are like nitrous but at all times! In the 1/4 this should also do wonders for mph and e/t. I can tell you from data logs no matter how cold it feels outside IAT's are up there half way down the track.
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Old 11-11-2011, 08:42 AM
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Water/meth is great 240. The problem with it is, you aren't "solving" the problem, you are only covering it up. If you are tuned for water/meth, and a pump goes out or you run out of water there is some risk there. It's a little like nitrous in a way. To do it "right" you'll need some fail safes installed. I think the cost is around $1-1.5k to do it the right way.
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Old 11-11-2011, 01:29 PM
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Originally Posted by FormulaZR View Post
Water/meth is great 240. The problem with it is, you aren't "solving" the problem, you are only covering it up. If you are tuned for water/meth, and a pump goes out or you run out of water there is some risk there. It's a little like nitrous in a way. To do it "right" you'll need some fail safes installed. I think the cost is around $1-1.5k to do it the right way.
Exactly. It can help but don't tune for it. It is also possable, however rare, to hydrolock the engine. If you don't set it up right it can syphon and puddle. Then when you start it or go wot, boom.I've thought about it but for me the risks aren't worth the reward.
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Old 11-13-2011, 05:44 AM
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if anybody is interested i have posted step by step of the mezier water pump install on my cl65 on this forum...
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Old 11-14-2011, 08:39 AM
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freestylebiker - will you repost it in the V12TT section here?
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Old 11-15-2011, 08:07 PM
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Originally Posted by FormulaZR View Post
Water/meth is great 240. The problem with it is, you aren't "solving" the problem, you are only covering it up. If you are tuned for water/meth, and a pump goes out or you run out of water there is some risk there. It's a little like nitrous in a way. To do it "right" you'll need some fail safes installed. I think the cost is around $1-1.5k to do it the right way.
Gotcha.

StockC43-with me and cars its Murphys Law. If it can happen it always happens to me LOL. Looks like more research is in store for me. By not tuning for it does one take the chance of running lean? Does its presence(or lack there of) affect AFR's?

freestylebiker-im with Formula id love to see the writeup in this thread.

Last edited by 240M3SRT; 11-15-2011 at 08:11 PM.
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Old 11-16-2011, 05:06 AM
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hey guys sorry for the late responce... check out this link

https://mbworld.org/forums/cl55-amg-...p-upgrade.html
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Old 11-16-2011, 11:27 PM
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Originally Posted by 240M3SRT View Post
Gotcha.

StockC43-with me and cars its Murphys Law. If it can happen it always happens to me LOL. Looks like more research is in store for me. By not tuning for it does one take the chance of running lean? Does its presence(or lack there of) affect AFR's?

freestylebiker-im with Formula id love to see the writeup in this thread.
The problem is if you tune for it, as in higher boost levels or more timing and you run out of alcohol or you have a pump/solonoid issue you could have serious issues. Im not sure on the afr's as I'm not a tuner however Im friends with a well known tuner on here as well as a tuner that tunes reliable 600+hp rx7's. I've spoke to them a while ago about alcohol and they both don't like it. It's more or less a band aid. With a engine that costs twice what my car is worth I don't want to take any chances. Larger HE is safe, larger IC's are safe, larger turbos are safe. There predictable. If I still had my vette and I boosted that I would feel ok dooing alcohol. Ls1's are much cheaper to blow up than m275's
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Old 11-17-2011, 12:41 AM
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Originally Posted by stockC43 View Post
If I still had my vette and I boosted that I would feel ok dooing alcohol. Ls1's are much cheaper to blow up than m275's
LOL amen to that.
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Old 11-24-2011, 07:58 AM
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Old 11-24-2011, 10:51 AM
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With water injection, another concern, is corrosion of the piping. Not that this will happen to all systems, but an incorrectly installed system can cause more harm than good. This was taken from my 300zx forum.



Here is a link to the discussion: http://twinturbo.net/nissan/300zx/fo...tion-fail.html


Last edited by boost420; 11-24-2011 at 11:07 AM.
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Old 01-09-2012, 01:17 PM
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I was talking about meth way back when I first got my sl600 and was told the corrosive nature isn't something most people would run regularly on a car that has this pricey of parts. I am very interested in that huge HE core though, it would be a good permanent solution for us mildly tuned 12's. I also need to get my factory pump rewired so I have control of it. I am going to try some new intakes to see if they are worth it, Ideally I'd like to have a heat shield of some sorts to keep the filters from sucking in crazy hot engine bay air, but I don't know how crazy making them will be or how much difference I would see if they were jethot coated pipes and a sheet metal surround.
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Old 01-09-2012, 01:34 PM
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Anyone have any experience with a Killer Chiller or Super Chiller, below is some info, I know that a few of the E55 guys are using this type of set up ....

http://www.killerchiller.com/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BR7kYFf_MaU

or

http://www.coloradospeed.com/index.p...ducts_id=20381

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...v=QQ9EbjSH_X8#!


The RX Super Chiller system is the most convieniant, effective, and easiest to use intake air charge cooling system available today.

The RX Super Chiller uses the cars AC system to chill the coolant used in water to air intercoolers to temps of 22-32* F on a continueous bases as long as the car is running and the AC compressor is on. The system only adds 7-9#'s additional weight on average and reduces the intake air temps on forced induction applications by 40-60* F allowing a densor more qxygen rich intake air charge for more aggressive tuning (avg 20-50 RWHP/RWTQ increase) with out the reacuuring costs of refilling CO2 tanks, or the hassel of ice chests and the melt water/added weight.

The installed sytem requires only 5-6oz's additional freon and each system has a "competition mode" that allows for the cabin AC to be disabled so there is no water dripping from the moisture removed from the cabin air. Track approved for both drag & road race. (for professional road racers we have an optional remote mount 12v compressor used just for the chiller system and allows continueous use at all rpm's)

The RX Super Chiller adds NO parasitic power loss as todays computer controlled systems the AC compressor disengages as soon as you go WOT (wide open throttle) so during your run down the strip the comp is off and their is enough residual cooling that by the time temps have risen 10-15* you are at the end of your run and the chiller kicks back on.

For street use the cabin AC works in conjuction with no noticeable reduction in the cabin AC's ability to keep you comfortable.

Available as complete add on system for most popular modern muscle cars and light trucks with custom systems for any forced induction application.

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Old 01-10-2012, 08:26 AM
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One slight problem with a killer chiller is that the A/C turns OFF during WOT. Granted it comes back on when you lift, but when you need it most, it is not there for you.

Although some of the W211 crew swear by it

I have mixed feeling regarding it, IMHO
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Old 01-10-2012, 10:51 AM
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Originally Posted by MRAMG1 View Post
One slight problem with a killer chiller is that the A/C turns OFF during WOT. Granted it comes back on when you lift, but when you need it most, it is not there for you.

Although some of the W211 crew swear by it

I have mixed feeling regarding it, IMHO
Why is this an issue, how often are you really at WOT ?

Any other issues ?

.
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Old 01-11-2012, 12:11 PM
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Originally Posted by 1995E320Cab View Post
Why is this an issue, how often are you really at WOT ?

Any other issues ?

.
My concern is that during a WOT, say at the drag strip, it will not be helping you at all. AKA when you need most, your IAT's will be climbing.

Also, I have my reserve about its capacity, aka cooling off the large interior and the IC's at the same time.

Again, some of the W211 crew love it, so I may be just a worry wort
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Old 04-09-2012, 08:25 PM
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Anyone install the devil horns on a V12 factory intake?
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Old 04-25-2012, 12:43 PM
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I've had plenty of experience with water/meth injection on tuned Saabs. i understand the theory but I have NEVER seen one make more bhp with water/meth running than with it turned off. Scooby owners have discovered the same thing.

A key reason for that is that, although the mixture may lower the charge temp, it also replaces some of the charge air going in. In other words, it tends to richen the mixture. That won't help power unless you are already running lean.

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Old 04-25-2012, 12:55 PM
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Just to add. If you tune your car for water/Meth injection by leaning out the fuel, advancing ignition and increasing boost, you will see gains, but on a standard tune or even off the shelf Speedriven etc tune, you probably won't see gains.

Where I did see gains was simply by adding 10% methanol to the fuel tank. This has the effect of both leaning the mixture and increasing the octane. In the UK, methonal is cheaper than petrol (gas) and so it's a great 'solution'.

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