Cooling down the V12TT
11-08-2011, 09:54 AM
#26
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2003 CL600 2005 745Li
My experience in a cramped engine bay like this one is that water/meth injection is the most efficient solution from cost, engineering, and complexity aspects.
Lowering IATs does not really make horsepower. What it does as Formula says is allow you to keep the horsepower you're making and not heat soak, which is when the ECU pulls timing and you lose power.
I have a lot of track time with an Audi turbo using Aquamist. While some things do not translate directly, I was running 28psi of boost (correct, almost 2BAR) for hundreds of laps one after the other at Watkins Glen and other places.
The Aquamist system I used (and there are lots of choices) pulled 100 degrees fahrenheit out of the IAT. It was better than using 100 octane race gas, which has a higher ignition temp and is therefore less susceptible to detonation, which is what lowering IATs accomplishes. When the car detonates (fuel mixture pre-ignites), the ECU immediately pulls timing and boost to compensate, so you lose power.
With straight-from-KMart blue washer fluid at 99 cents a gallon (blue washer fluid is half methanol at 114 octane and half water which is the best liquid to remove heat), the difference was incredible. The few times the tank ran dry and I lost the water injection, it was like someone pulled 75HP out of the car. Plus you can tune for WI, and advance timing knowing you do not have the same heat/pre-ignition issues to deal with. That's why some companies will give you tunes for 91, 93, 94, and/or 100 octane. They can increase boost and advance timing more at the higher octanes. Blue washer fluid is perfect for that if injected in an atomized mist about 6 inches forward of the intake manifold.
It's cheap, engineering is not complex, it works, and it's not hard to remove if needed. I lkoved it when I ran with it, huge difference, no heat soak, and cheap to buy/install/run.
Bruce
Lowering IATs does not really make horsepower. What it does as Formula says is allow you to keep the horsepower you're making and not heat soak, which is when the ECU pulls timing and you lose power.
I have a lot of track time with an Audi turbo using Aquamist. While some things do not translate directly, I was running 28psi of boost (correct, almost 2BAR) for hundreds of laps one after the other at Watkins Glen and other places.
The Aquamist system I used (and there are lots of choices) pulled 100 degrees fahrenheit out of the IAT. It was better than using 100 octane race gas, which has a higher ignition temp and is therefore less susceptible to detonation, which is what lowering IATs accomplishes. When the car detonates (fuel mixture pre-ignites), the ECU immediately pulls timing and boost to compensate, so you lose power.
With straight-from-KMart blue washer fluid at 99 cents a gallon (blue washer fluid is half methanol at 114 octane and half water which is the best liquid to remove heat), the difference was incredible. The few times the tank ran dry and I lost the water injection, it was like someone pulled 75HP out of the car. Plus you can tune for WI, and advance timing knowing you do not have the same heat/pre-ignition issues to deal with. That's why some companies will give you tunes for 91, 93, 94, and/or 100 octane. They can increase boost and advance timing more at the higher octanes. Blue washer fluid is perfect for that if injected in an atomized mist about 6 inches forward of the intake manifold.
It's cheap, engineering is not complex, it works, and it's not hard to remove if needed. I lkoved it when I ran with it, huge difference, no heat soak, and cheap to buy/install/run.
Bruce
Bruce great post lots of info, not many Mercedes guys going with these systems that I have seen, I wonder why ?
.
11-08-2011, 10:27 AM
#27
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It's going to be nearly impossible to lower the IATs below ambient no matter what you do (short of chemical cooling or ice in a reservoir).
Being that you can't get below ambient, then your goal is to keep IAT as close to ambient as possible. That won't make you more power...but it will help you retain your power. Dyno your car while it's cold; then go drive it around, make a couple full throttle runs, and then go dyno it again...you'll see what I mean.
As in - you know how your car pulls really hard at 40*? Well, you're goal is to keep it performing like that even if you're in the throttle for a sustained period.
Being that you can't get below ambient, then your goal is to keep IAT as close to ambient as possible. That won't make you more power...but it will help you retain your power. Dyno your car while it's cold; then go drive it around, make a couple full throttle runs, and then go dyno it again...you'll see what I mean.
As in - you know how your car pulls really hard at 40*? Well, you're goal is to keep it performing like that even if you're in the throttle for a sustained period.
11-09-2011, 04:17 PM
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65 Chevelle Wagon w/ C5 frame, 08 ML63, 04 S600, 04 E55,(sold) 00 ML55,(sold) 98 C43-55K Swap
The dark pictures (2,3,4) are of my intake. If the car is stationary for a long period of time or in stop and go traffic it seems like it does becomes heat soaked. With my kleemann tune with stock air boxes and filters I would never get above 20lbs of boost at low rpm's. With this set up it will get up to 21.6. I believe it drops to around 16 near red line. That is, until I i get some speedriven turbos
The turbos are loud with this set up as well as the bov's. not ricey, but sound good.
As far as cooling i put in a larger front heat exchanger with the meziere pump and that made a noticable gain.
The turbos are loud with this set up as well as the bov's. not ricey, but sound good. As far as cooling i put in a larger front heat exchanger with the meziere pump and that made a noticable gain.
11-09-2011, 04:27 PM
#29
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2003 CL600 2005 745Li
The dark pictures (2,3,4) are of my intake. If the car is stationary for a long period of time or in stop and go traffic it seems like it does becomes heat soaked. With my kleemann tune with stock air boxes and filters I would never get above 20lbs of boost at low rpm's. With this set up it will get up to 21.6. I believe it drops to around 16 near red line. That is, until I i get some speedriven turbos The turbos are loud with this set up as well as the bov's. not ricey, but sound good.
As far as cooling i put in a larger front heat exchanger with the meziere pump and that made a noticable gain.
The turbos are loud with this set up as well as the bov's. not ricey, but sound good. As far as cooling i put in a larger front heat exchanger with the meziere pump and that made a noticable gain.
How much HP / TQ does the added 1.6 boost make ?
What HE did you got with, what size where id you get it ?
Thanks
11-10-2011, 04:58 AM
#30
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The dark pictures (2,3,4) are of my intake. If the car is stationary for a long period of time or in stop and go traffic it seems like it does becomes heat soaked. With my kleemann tune with stock air boxes and filters I would never get above 20lbs of boost at low rpm's. With this set up it will get up to 21.6. I believe it drops to around 16 near red line. That is, until I i get some speedriven turbos The turbos are loud with this set up as well as the bov's. not ricey, but sound good.
As far as cooling i put in a larger front heat exchanger with the meziere pump and that made a noticable gain.
The turbos are loud with this set up as well as the bov's. not ricey, but sound good. As far as cooling i put in a larger front heat exchanger with the meziere pump and that made a noticable gain.
11-10-2011, 10:25 PM
#31
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65 Chevelle Wagon w/ C5 frame, 08 ML63, 04 S600, 04 E55,(sold) 00 ML55,(sold) 98 C43-55K Swap
As far as the HE, I fabbed it up my self. I got the core cheap. I believe it was for either a 03 cobra or a lightning pick up. I dont have the exact measurements but it is big, actually slightly too big. I had to trim some brackets and dimple the top of the core to clear a abc line.
02cl55amg
The exhaust is all stock except for the rear muffler delete. I was going to do down pipes with 100 cel cats however speedriven is working on something very interesting and I am holding off on any more mods until this prototype setup is ready for sale. Were talking BIG power numbers!
I would be careful not running filters! I have seen two cars ware the stock filter housings werent sitting on the turbos properly, they sucked in dirt and destroyed the barrings and impellers in the turbos. I'm not sure on the pn for the filters however I remember that they are for a aftermarket intake for Harley's. On k&n's web site they list the sizes of every filter and cfm they make on a list. just a pain to find what fits. usually motorcycle or snowmobile filters are the right size.
Never mind the missing grill, I'm in the middle of buffing the car but this gives you a idea of the size.
11-10-2011, 10:46 PM
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CL 600
My experience in a cramped engine bay like this one is that water/meth injection is the most efficient solution from cost, engineering, and complexity aspects.
Lowering IATs does not really make horsepower. What it does as Formula says is allow you to keep the horsepower you're making and not heat soak, which is when the ECU pulls timing and you lose power.
I have a lot of track time with an Audi turbo using Aquamist. While some things do not translate directly, I was running 28psi of boost (correct, almost 2BAR) for hundreds of laps one after the other at Watkins Glen and other places.
The Aquamist system I used (and there are lots of choices) pulled 100 degrees fahrenheit out of the IAT. It was better than using 100 octane race gas, which has a higher ignition temp and is therefore less susceptible to detonation, which is what lowering IATs accomplishes. When the car detonates (fuel mixture pre-ignites), the ECU immediately pulls timing and boost to compensate, so you lose power.
With straight-from-KMart blue washer fluid at 99 cents a gallon (blue washer fluid is half methanol at 114 octane and half water which is the best liquid to remove heat), the difference was incredible. The few times the tank ran dry and I lost the water injection, it was like someone pulled 75HP out of the car. Plus you can tune for WI, and advance timing knowing you do not have the same heat/pre-ignition issues to deal with. That's why some companies will give you tunes for 91, 93, 94, and/or 100 octane. They can increase boost and advance timing more at the higher octanes. Blue washer fluid is perfect for that if injected in an atomized mist about 6 inches forward of the intake manifold.
It's cheap, engineering is not complex, it works, and it's not hard to remove if needed. I lkoved it when I ran with it, huge difference, no heat soak, and cheap to buy/install/run.
Bruce
Lowering IATs does not really make horsepower. What it does as Formula says is allow you to keep the horsepower you're making and not heat soak, which is when the ECU pulls timing and you lose power.
I have a lot of track time with an Audi turbo using Aquamist. While some things do not translate directly, I was running 28psi of boost (correct, almost 2BAR) for hundreds of laps one after the other at Watkins Glen and other places.
The Aquamist system I used (and there are lots of choices) pulled 100 degrees fahrenheit out of the IAT. It was better than using 100 octane race gas, which has a higher ignition temp and is therefore less susceptible to detonation, which is what lowering IATs accomplishes. When the car detonates (fuel mixture pre-ignites), the ECU immediately pulls timing and boost to compensate, so you lose power.
With straight-from-KMart blue washer fluid at 99 cents a gallon (blue washer fluid is half methanol at 114 octane and half water which is the best liquid to remove heat), the difference was incredible. The few times the tank ran dry and I lost the water injection, it was like someone pulled 75HP out of the car. Plus you can tune for WI, and advance timing knowing you do not have the same heat/pre-ignition issues to deal with. That's why some companies will give you tunes for 91, 93, 94, and/or 100 octane. They can increase boost and advance timing more at the higher octanes. Blue washer fluid is perfect for that if injected in an atomized mist about 6 inches forward of the intake manifold.
It's cheap, engineering is not complex, it works, and it's not hard to remove if needed. I lkoved it when I ran with it, huge difference, no heat soak, and cheap to buy/install/run.
Bruce
Regarding the section i highlighted, did you actually confirm this claim via datalogs? Is this similar to "meth injection" a lot of guys use?
I can see this being effective at the roadrace track, the gains you claim are like nitrous but at all times! In the 1/4 this should also do wonders for mph and e/t. I can tell you from data logs no matter how cold it feels outside IAT's are up there half way down the track.
11-11-2011, 07:42 AM
#33
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Water/meth is great 240. The problem with it is, you aren't "solving" the problem, you are only covering it up. If you are tuned for water/meth, and a pump goes out or you run out of water there is some risk there. It's a little like nitrous in a way. To do it "right" you'll need some fail safes installed. I think the cost is around $1-1.5k to do it the right way.
11-11-2011, 12:29 PM
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65 Chevelle Wagon w/ C5 frame, 08 ML63, 04 S600, 04 E55,(sold) 00 ML55,(sold) 98 C43-55K Swap
Water/meth is great 240. The problem with it is, you aren't "solving" the problem, you are only covering it up. If you are tuned for water/meth, and a pump goes out or you run out of water there is some risk there. It's a little like nitrous in a way. To do it "right" you'll need some fail safes installed. I think the cost is around $1-1.5k to do it the right way.
11-15-2011, 07:07 PM
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CL 600
Water/meth is great 240. The problem with it is, you aren't "solving" the problem, you are only covering it up. If you are tuned for water/meth, and a pump goes out or you run out of water there is some risk there. It's a little like nitrous in a way. To do it "right" you'll need some fail safes installed. I think the cost is around $1-1.5k to do it the right way.
StockC43-with me and cars its Murphys Law. If it can happen it always happens to me LOL. Looks like more research is in store for me. By not tuning for it does one take the chance of running lean? Does its presence(or lack there of) affect AFR's?
freestylebiker-im with Formula id love to see the writeup in this thread.
Last edited by 240M3SRT; 11-15-2011 at 07:11 PM.
11-16-2011, 04:06 AM
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w215 cl65, W212 E63, R53 Mini Cooper JCW, E92 328I
hey guys sorry for the late responce... check out this link
https://mbworld.org/forums/cl55-amg-...p-upgrade.html
https://mbworld.org/forums/cl55-amg-...p-upgrade.html
11-16-2011, 10:27 PM
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65 Chevelle Wagon w/ C5 frame, 08 ML63, 04 S600, 04 E55,(sold) 00 ML55,(sold) 98 C43-55K Swap
Gotcha.
StockC43-with me and cars its Murphys Law. If it can happen it always happens to me LOL. Looks like more research is in store for me. By not tuning for it does one take the chance of running lean? Does its presence(or lack there of) affect AFR's?
freestylebiker-im with Formula id love to see the writeup in this thread.
StockC43-with me and cars its Murphys Law. If it can happen it always happens to me LOL. Looks like more research is in store for me. By not tuning for it does one take the chance of running lean? Does its presence(or lack there of) affect AFR's?
freestylebiker-im with Formula id love to see the writeup in this thread.
11-16-2011, 11:41 PM
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CL 600
11-24-2011, 09:51 AM
#42
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With water injection, another concern, is corrosion of the piping. Not that this will happen to all systems, but an incorrectly installed system can cause more harm than good. This was taken from my 300zx forum.
Here is a link to the discussion: http://twinturbo.net/nissan/300zx/fo...tion-fail.html
Here is a link to the discussion: http://twinturbo.net/nissan/300zx/fo...tion-fail.html
Last edited by boost420; 11-24-2011 at 10:07 AM.
01-09-2012, 12:17 PM
#43
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2005 SL600, 2016 ES300h, 2012 Hayabusa
I was talking about meth way back when I first got my sl600 and was told the corrosive nature isn't something most people would run regularly on a car that has this pricey of parts. I am very interested in that huge HE core though, it would be a good permanent solution for us mildly tuned 12's. I also need to get my factory pump rewired so I have control of it. I am going to try some new intakes to see if they are worth it, Ideally I'd like to have a heat shield of some sorts to keep the filters from sucking in crazy hot engine bay air, but I don't know how crazy making them will be or how much difference I would see if they were jethot coated pipes and a sheet metal surround.
01-09-2012, 12:34 PM
#44
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2003 CL600 2005 745Li
Anyone have any experience with a Killer Chiller or Super Chiller, below is some info, I know that a few of the E55 guys are using this type of set up ....
http://www.killerchiller.com/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BR7kYFf_MaU
or
http://www.coloradospeed.com/index.p...ducts_id=20381
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...v=QQ9EbjSH_X8#!
The RX Super Chiller system is the most convieniant, effective, and easiest to use intake air charge cooling system available today.
The RX Super Chiller uses the cars AC system to chill the coolant used in water to air intercoolers to temps of 22-32* F on a continueous bases as long as the car is running and the AC compressor is on. The system only adds 7-9#'s additional weight on average and reduces the intake air temps on forced induction applications by 40-60* F allowing a densor more qxygen rich intake air charge for more aggressive tuning (avg 20-50 RWHP/RWTQ increase) with out the reacuuring costs of refilling CO2 tanks, or the hassel of ice chests and the melt water/added weight.
The installed sytem requires only 5-6oz's additional freon and each system has a "competition mode" that allows for the cabin AC to be disabled so there is no water dripping from the moisture removed from the cabin air. Track approved for both drag & road race. (for professional road racers we have an optional remote mount 12v compressor used just for the chiller system and allows continueous use at all rpm's)
The RX Super Chiller adds NO parasitic power loss as todays computer controlled systems the AC compressor disengages as soon as you go WOT (wide open throttle) so during your run down the strip the comp is off and their is enough residual cooling that by the time temps have risen 10-15* you are at the end of your run and the chiller kicks back on.
For street use the cabin AC works in conjuction with no noticeable reduction in the cabin AC's ability to keep you comfortable.
Available as complete add on system for most popular modern muscle cars and light trucks with custom systems for any forced induction application.
http://www.killerchiller.com/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BR7kYFf_MaU
or
http://www.coloradospeed.com/index.p...ducts_id=20381
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...v=QQ9EbjSH_X8#!
The RX Super Chiller system is the most convieniant, effective, and easiest to use intake air charge cooling system available today.
The RX Super Chiller uses the cars AC system to chill the coolant used in water to air intercoolers to temps of 22-32* F on a continueous bases as long as the car is running and the AC compressor is on. The system only adds 7-9#'s additional weight on average and reduces the intake air temps on forced induction applications by 40-60* F allowing a densor more qxygen rich intake air charge for more aggressive tuning (avg 20-50 RWHP/RWTQ increase) with out the reacuuring costs of refilling CO2 tanks, or the hassel of ice chests and the melt water/added weight.
The installed sytem requires only 5-6oz's additional freon and each system has a "competition mode" that allows for the cabin AC to be disabled so there is no water dripping from the moisture removed from the cabin air. Track approved for both drag & road race. (for professional road racers we have an optional remote mount 12v compressor used just for the chiller system and allows continueous use at all rpm's)
The RX Super Chiller adds NO parasitic power loss as todays computer controlled systems the AC compressor disengages as soon as you go WOT (wide open throttle) so during your run down the strip the comp is off and their is enough residual cooling that by the time temps have risen 10-15* you are at the end of your run and the chiller kicks back on.
For street use the cabin AC works in conjuction with no noticeable reduction in the cabin AC's ability to keep you comfortable.
Available as complete add on system for most popular modern muscle cars and light trucks with custom systems for any forced induction application.
Last edited by 1995E320Cab; 01-09-2012 at 12:37 PM.
01-10-2012, 07:26 AM
#45
MBWorld Fanatic!
One slight problem with a killer chiller is that the A/C turns OFF during WOT. Granted it comes back on when you lift, but when you need it most, it is not there for you.
Although some of the W211 crew swear by it
I have mixed feeling regarding it, IMHO
Although some of the W211 crew swear by it
I have mixed feeling regarding it, IMHO
01-11-2012, 11:11 AM
#47
MBWorld Fanatic!
Also, I have my reserve about its capacity, aka cooling off the large interior and the IC's at the same time.
Again, some of the W211 crew love it, so I may be just a worry wort
04-25-2012, 11:43 AM
#49
I've had plenty of experience with water/meth injection on tuned Saabs. i understand the theory but I have NEVER seen one make more bhp with water/meth running than with it turned off. Scooby owners have discovered the same thing.
A key reason for that is that, although the mixture may lower the charge temp, it also replaces some of the charge air going in. In other words, it tends to richen the mixture. That won't help power unless you are already running lean.
Alanb
A key reason for that is that, although the mixture may lower the charge temp, it also replaces some of the charge air going in. In other words, it tends to richen the mixture. That won't help power unless you are already running lean.
Alanb
04-25-2012, 11:55 AM
#50
Just to add. If you tune your car for water/Meth injection by leaning out the fuel, advancing ignition and increasing boost, you will see gains, but on a standard tune or even off the shelf Speedriven etc tune, you probably won't see gains.
Where I did see gains was simply by adding 10% methanol to the fuel tank. This has the effect of both leaning the mixture and increasing the octane. In the UK, methonal is cheaper than petrol (gas) and so it's a great 'solution'.
Alanb
Where I did see gains was simply by adding 10% methanol to the fuel tank. This has the effect of both leaning the mixture and increasing the octane. In the UK, methonal is cheaper than petrol (gas) and so it's a great 'solution'.
Alanb
