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M275 V12 Bi-Turbo Platform Technical discussion relating to models sharing the M275 V12 Bi-Turbo (V12 TT). Including SL600, SL65 AMG, CL600, CL65 AMG, S600, S65 AMG.
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Cooling down the V12TT

 
Old 11-03-2011, 07:22 PM
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Cooling down the V12TT

What are some of the best ways to cool this beast down ?

Pro's and Con's and HP / TQ Gains

--- AIR ---

1 - What Air Intake options do we have ? - What gains ?

- OEM with K&N filters


- Scorpion intake with quad K&N filters



- Home built intakes ?





- Something with the Ram Air effect like this




2 - Intercoolers - What gains ?

- Anyone try running Dual OEM Intercoolers ?
- What aftermarket companies make them ?
- Who has them installed and what gains did they see ?




--- WATER ---

1. What Heat Exchanger Pump options do we have ? - What gains ?

- Bosh 1010
- Johnson CM30 or CM90
- Metzler
- Wire the upgraded Heat Exchanger Pump TO RUN AT ALL TIMES - Anyone have a DIY on this ?

2. What Heat Exchanger options do we have ? - What gains ?

- Can 600 EZaly upgrade to 65's HE, if so is it enuf ?
- Do 600's and 65's have OEM 2nd HE ?
- What aftermarket companies make them ?

3. Trunk Mount Reservoir Tanks

- Lost of E55 guys and some V12TT guys doing these, all seam to be happy with the results
- Is there any place to just buy a kit ?
- What size of Tanks is best ?
- Should you have a 2nd Pump at the back of the car with the Tank ?

4. Front Mount Reservoir Tanks

- A few E55 guys have done this.
- The CL600 has a pretty big over flow tank, I wounder if a Front Mount Reservoir could go in its place ?

5. Reroute Heat Exchanger Water Lines away from the heat of the motor

- I read this was pretty EZ (30min job)


Much more we can add to this I an just trying to get all of the info in one place

.

Last edited by 1995E320Cab; 11-05-2011 at 12:15 PM.
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Old 11-04-2011, 08:45 AM
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Originally Posted by 1995E320Cab View Post
What are some of the best ways to cool this beast down ?

Pro's and Con's and HP / TQ Gains

--- AIR ---

1 - What Air Intake options do we have ? - What gains ?

- OEM with K&N filters


- Scorpion intake with quad K&N filters


- Home built intakes ?


- Something with the Ram Air effect like this


My CL600 had OEM intake with K&N filters...minimal change if any. Seems to me that something that pulled from in front of the radiator would help - but it would have to be in tandem with other changes (heat exchanger/intercoolers).




2 - Intercoolers - What gains ?

- Anyone try running Dual OEM Intercoolers ?
- What aftermarket companies make them ?
- Who has them installed and what gains did they see ?


I'm not sure where you'd find the room for dual intercoolers and their related plumbing; plus the pressure drop could potentially be counter productive. It will also add more complexity to the system, which in turns adds the potential for more failure points. I know Speedriven makes intercoolers for these cars. I am not sure who else does. I *believe* Marcin was the fabricator at VRP - which is who built some of the other intercoolers you see from years past.

There are several cars that have them installed, but I could not tell you what the true gains are. I would suspect that the actual gains may only be in the 20 hp range - BUT they give you the ability to KEEP your power over long pulls.



--- WATER ---

1. What Heat Exchanger Pump options do we have ? - What gains ?

- Bosh 1010
- Johnson CM30 or CM90
- Metzler

Meziere is also an option - and I think one of the best. It's not a bolt in fit, but it's also not a pump that belongs in the livewell of a boat. The stock Bosch pump is marginal at best, even with the revisions.

2. What Heat Exchanger options do we have ? - What gains ?

- Can 600 EZaly upgrade to 65's HE, if so is it enuf ?
- Do 600's and 65's have OEM 2nd HE ?
- What aftermarket companies make them ?

I don't have info on the 65's HE, but in my experience none of the current aftermarket HEs are big enough. But that also partly due to the stock intercooler/turbo sizing.

3. Trunk Mount Reservoir Tanks

- Lost of E55 guys and some V12TT guys doing these, all seam to be happy with the results
- Is there any place to just buy a kit ?
- What size of Tanks is best ?
- Should you have a 2nd Pump at the back of the car with the Tank ?

A 2nd pump in the rear is a good idea. You can mount a bilge pump like a Rule in the tank. It's not required, but again not a bad idea. The best size of tank is basically the largest you can fit. Trunk tanks specifically for the CL600 don't really exist, but all the trunk reservoirs are basically the same concept. Contact Exotic-Metal55 on the boards here for some GREAT info on trunk reservoirs (he has a CL55, but his cooling mods would apply to the CL600/CL65 also).

4. Front Mount Reservoir Tanks

- A few E55 guys have done this.
- The CL600 has a pretty big over flow tank, I wounder if a Front Mount Reservoir could go in its place ?

Possibly, but I'm not sure if you could get something big enough - especially considering it will be soaking up the substantial heat of the turbos/engine. The 55 series of cars don't quite generate the underhood heat of the undersize turbos of the 600/65 cars. Don't believe the turbos are too small? When is the last time you saw a 5.5L gasoline engine making the torque of the M275, especially at such a low rpm (as in, rivaling a diesel)?

5. Reroute Heat Exchanger Water Lines away from the heat of the motor

- I read this was pretty EZ (30min job)

If it was cheap and easy, do it - but it's not going to cause a drastic change.


Much more we can add to this I an just trying to get all of the info in one place

.

In addition to my above answers in blue - really part of the problem is these cars really have incorrectly sized turbos for performance. When you start asking for much more than stock boost, they become big hair dryers. The "real" solution is going to be a turbo change/upgrade. I realize that's not very cost effective...so in lieu of that, it's going to be all in designing the best cooling system for the cold side of the system.

With a combination of HE, intercoolers, trunk reservoir, etc - it would be very possible to hold good power over long pulls...but I don't think any 1 of those items is going to be the solution on these cars - especially as the tunes get more aggressive, etc.

Water meth in sprayed in the intake (I think Oxygen has experience with this) or nitrous oxide sprayed over the heat exchanger (or into the engine) would have short term results. Spraying over the heat exchanger would not lead to premature engine failure, as it would be a cooling effect. Spraying into the engine, however would probably not be something you'd want to make a habit out of. Granted the M275 is a very strong engine, but among other things, the rings aren't gapped for much of a hit. Timing would need to be pulled also, compared to the typical ECU tune these cars have.

Last edited by FormulaZR; 11-04-2011 at 08:49 AM.
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Old 11-04-2011, 12:01 PM
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Brabus has utilized two additional stock intercooler cores to create their 800R 6.3 motor... plumbing looks fairly simple and not space consuming:



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Old 11-04-2011, 12:10 PM
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Here are the quad intercooler configurations on the SL65 Black Series and on the EV12 Coupe:



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Old 11-04-2011, 12:41 PM
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But...that required several other newly fabricated parts - like the TB adapter and the cold side Y-pipes...along with brackets, plumbing, even more radiator caps. My point was, I'm not sure it would be cost effective versus custom made intercoolers...

That actually looks fairly complex to me - with hoses upon hoses...reminds me a Rube Goldberg design.

I guess I don't know what the factory intercoolers go for, I'll have to check price on that...




I'd still rather have something a lot more simple.
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Old 11-04-2011, 12:52 PM
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I think they are about $850/each or so...

I mean it was more of a joke, I think Brabus is crazy but that is some sweet engineering. They tend to always use Mercedes OEM parts rather than fabricating their own (ex.. taking stock intercoolers and plumbing them together) but it does look freakin' cool.
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Old 11-04-2011, 02:26 PM
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Yeah, definitely looks cool - and if you had "free" factory parts, then it might be most cost effective. Especially from a warranty standpoint.

I will have to say, though - obviously I stand corrected on the fit...Looks like it fits quite well.
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Old 11-05-2011, 09:41 AM
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A larger dual intercooler certainly seems like a better idea than going quads.

What heat exchanger does the Black Series use? With that huge mouth in the grill, it seems like you could fit a monster there. Hoping it doesn't just use the 65 HE.

Last edited by saintz; 11-05-2011 at 09:43 AM.
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Old 11-05-2011, 12:17 PM
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.
I added another item

- Wire the upgraded Heat Exchanger Pump TO RUN AT ALL TIMES - Anyone have a DIY on this ?

.
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Old 11-05-2011, 12:26 PM
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Originally Posted by 1995E320Cab View Post
.
I added another item

- Wire the upgraded Heat Exchanger Pump TO RUN AT ALL TIMES - Anyone have a DIY on this ?

.
The best would be to set it up on a relay with a switch that either turned it on, or let it run as designed...versus on/off.
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Old 11-05-2011, 02:52 PM
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Thats maybe a stupid question .. but are the Intercoolers on the SL65 that same as the ones used for the Non AMG CL600 TT ?
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Old 11-05-2011, 05:36 PM
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FormulaZR, what did you replace your stock HE with ?

Also did you car have a lower HE down between the fog lights ?

I have what I think is a lower 2nd HE there, hard to get photos of it.....

This shows the end fitting (looks to be a threaded nut) and a bit of the core, from the front of the car



This shows the end fitting to the left (looks to be a threaded nut) and the plastic cove it has in the right side of the photo, from under the hood


.

Last edited by 1995E320Cab; 11-05-2011 at 05:57 PM.
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Old 11-06-2011, 12:16 PM
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I added another pump

--- WATER ---

1. What Heat Exchanger Pump options do we have ? - What gains ?

- Bosh 1010
- Johnson CM30 or CM90
- Metzler
- Meziere WP136S
- Wire the upgraded Heat Exchanger Pump TO RUN AT ALL TIMES - Anyone have a DIY on this ?
.
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Old 11-06-2011, 12:20 PM
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My Thoughts

Your last 2 pics are of the oil cooler in between the fogs lower center grille. Stock HE is sandwiched between a/c condensor and radiator.

Now since everyone is guessing with their opinions and nobody has any data on actual cooling comparisons between the VRP/Speedriven intercoolers and the brabus quads I'm going to offer my opinon. To me, it would make sense that the quad system is more effective. First since there is a "Y" pipe off the turbo, (equal to the size of the 2 stock intercoolers on each side), it will allow the charged air to slow down as it enters the intercoolers and cross over the surface of the internal coils. If you notice the stock intercoolers have a gradual transition from round to square which allows for better air distribution over the intercooler. Once existing the intercoolers the air returns to the quad plenum and the PSI increases as it enters the single opening of the intake. If you look at the inlet of the VRP/Speedriven intercooler it appears to be a straight pipe into the bottom of a very large intercooler with the discharge favoring the fire wall. My thoughts are under WOT the majority of the air makes a straight line for the intake without covering the front portion of the intercooler. My guess is its better than stock because of its size and volume, but may be more restrictive for the stock turbos compared to Brabus. Speedriven seems to be getting great results out of this setup with their aftermarket turbos because they are strong enough to maintain higher boost and overcome the resistance. The stock air boxes are also restrictive. Renntechs airbox and Speedriven scorpions allow you to actually hear the turbos spool up. Its been stated many times that the stock turbos have a tough time maintaining boost at higher RPMs, I would think they need all the help they can get. All in all its not just intercoolers, the problem is so much heat with slow recovery. Many have trunk resevoirs and ice seems to do the trick for the track. Its all a matter of what you are looking for....
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Old 11-06-2011, 07:37 PM
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Originally Posted by FormulaZR View Post
In addition to my above answers in blue - really part of the problem is these cars really have incorrectly sized turbos for performance. When you start asking for much more than stock boost, they become big hair dryers. The "real" solution is going to be a turbo change/upgrade. I realize that's not very cost effective...so in lieu of that, it's going to be all in designing the best cooling system for the cold side of the system.

With a combination of HE, intercoolers, trunk reservoir, etc - it would be very possible to hold good power over long pulls...but I don't think any 1 of those items is going to be the solution on these cars - especially as the tunes get more aggressive, etc.

Water meth in sprayed in the intake (I think Oxygen has experience with this) or nitrous oxide sprayed over the heat exchanger (or into the engine) would have short term results. Spraying over the heat exchanger would not lead to premature engine failure, as it would be a cooling effect. Spraying into the engine, however would probably not be something you'd want to make a habit out of. Granted the M275 is a very strong engine, but among other things, the rings aren't gapped for much of a hit. Timing would need to be pulled also, compared to the typical ECU tune these cars have.
i have 2 intakes-
scorpion/speedriven & homemade pipes with no filter going straight to the front grill. actually lost mph in the 1/4 going from scorpion to off road pipes. will be adding a "ram air" system hopefully soon
intercoolers-
i have speedriven setup running a 100 oct tune
trunk res-
i have 5 gallon tank in the trunk
Heat exchanger-
stock for now, but will be adding a supp HE up front
pump-
johnson cm30, will try a meziere to see if that helps and will also double check the lines to see if they are routed correctly and away from heat sources.
nos & meth-
i have also contemplated spraying nos on the supp HE and adding water/meth.
NO nos into this motor

Last edited by 02cl55amg; 11-06-2011 at 07:40 PM.
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Old 11-06-2011, 09:13 PM
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Originally Posted by 02cl55amg View Post
i have 2 intakes-
scorpion/speedriven & homemade pipes with no filter going straight to the front grill. actually lost mph in the 1/4 going from scorpion to off road pipes. will be adding a "ram air" system hopefully soon
intercoolers-
i have speedriven setup running a 100 oct tune
trunk res-
i have 5 gallon tank in the trunk
Heat exchanger-
stock for now, but will be adding a supp HE up front
pump-
johnson cm30, will try a meziere to see if that helps and will also double check the lines to see if they are routed correctly and away from heat sources.
nos & meth-
i have also contemplated spraying nos on the supp HE and adding water/meth.
NO nos into this motor
.
What do you plan on doing from your "ram air" system and supp HE up front?

Thanks
.
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Old 11-06-2011, 09:16 PM
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My experience in a cramped engine bay like this one is that water/meth injection is the most efficient solution from cost, engineering, and complexity aspects.

Lowering IATs does not really make horsepower. What it does as Formula says is allow you to keep the horsepower you're making and not heat soak, which is when the ECU pulls timing and you lose power.

I have a lot of track time with an Audi turbo using Aquamist. While some things do not translate directly, I was running 28psi of boost (correct, almost 2BAR) for hundreds of laps one after the other at Watkins Glen and other places.

The Aquamist system I used (and there are lots of choices) pulled 100 degrees fahrenheit out of the IAT. It was better than using 100 octane race gas, which has a higher ignition temp and is therefore less susceptible to detonation, which is what lowering IATs accomplishes. When the car detonates (fuel mixture pre-ignites), the ECU immediately pulls timing and boost to compensate, so you lose power.

With straight-from-KMart blue washer fluid at 99 cents a gallon (blue washer fluid is half methanol at 114 octane and half water which is the best liquid to remove heat), the difference was incredible. The few times the tank ran dry and I lost the water injection, it was like someone pulled 75HP out of the car. Plus you can tune for WI, and advance timing knowing you do not have the same heat/pre-ignition issues to deal with. That's why some companies will give you tunes for 91, 93, 94, and/or 100 octane. They can increase boost and advance timing more at the higher octanes. Blue washer fluid is perfect for that if injected in an atomized mist about 6 inches forward of the intake manifold.

It's cheap, engineering is not complex, it works, and it's not hard to remove if needed. I lkoved it when I ran with it, huge difference, no heat soak, and cheap to buy/install/run.

Bruce
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Old 11-06-2011, 11:19 PM
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Originally Posted by 1995E320Cab View Post
.
What do you plan on doing from your "ram air" system and supp HE up front?

Thanks
.
deflect the airflow coming thru the grill into to the intake pipes.
add HE is to try to combat high iat's
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Old 11-07-2011, 11:22 AM
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Originally Posted by 02cl55amg View Post
deflect the airflow coming thru the grill into to the intake pipes.
add HE is to try to combat high iat's
LOL yes I figured that much lol .....

What ram set up will you use, will you just make one? How do you plan to do the filters ?

I was thinking of leaving the stock set up, with K&N filters and adding some kind of scoop in the front behind the grill, kind of like the above photo I posted.

What changes to the HE do you have planed, will you get a customer one made to replace the stock one or will you add a 2nd ? If adding a 2nd where do you plan to install it ?

Thanks
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Old 11-07-2011, 12:27 PM
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Originally Posted by 1995E320Cab View Post
.
FormulaZR, what did you replace your stock HE with ?

Also did you car have a lower HE down between the fog lights ?

I have what I think is a lower 2nd HE there, hard to get photos of it.....

This shows the end fitting (looks to be a threaded nut) and a bit of the core, from the front of the car



This shows the end fitting to the left (looks to be a threaded nut) and the plastic cove it has in the right side of the photo, from under the hood


.

The HE you are referring to is the oil cooler. Hugely important on a turbo car. I did not remove this, just relocated it.

I replaced my stock HE with the Eurocharged HE. For a single core, it was good...but I think with the odd shape of the front of these cars a multi-core setup is going to be the way to go.

As for the water pump - I still say the Meziere is the way to go. 20+ GPM and can handle the backpressure of a multi core setup. It's not quite a bolt in setup, but the extra cost and time will be worth it.
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Old 11-07-2011, 12:36 PM
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Originally Posted by FormulaZR View Post
The HE you are referring to is the oil cooler. Hugely important on a turbo car. I did not remove this, just relocated it.

I replaced my stock HE with the Eurocharged HE. For a single core, it was good...but I think with the odd shape of the front of these cars a multi-core setup is going to be the way to go.

As for the water pump - I still say the Meziere is the way to go. 20+ GPM and can handle the backpressure of a multi core setup. It's not quite a bolt in setup, but the extra cost and time will be worth it.
Zack why did you replace the stock HE ? Why not just add the Eurocharged HE as a secondary ? I think I have seen some cars with a set up like this.
.
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Old 11-07-2011, 12:49 PM
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Mine was not of the size/type to allow the stock HE to still be mounted. It took up considerable room.

When I got the car back I was going to try to add it back in...but there was no way I could shoehorn it in...

Last edited by FormulaZR; 11-07-2011 at 12:52 PM.
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Old 11-07-2011, 02:21 PM
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I really want to get those scorpion intakes made... SpeedDriven quoted me I think around $700 for their intake setup which I thought was a bit much.

I got to find someone with a pipe bender and a welder.
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Old 11-07-2011, 04:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Oxygen View Post
I really want to get those scorpion intakes made... SpeedDriven quoted me I think around $700 for their intake setup which I thought was a bit much.

I got to find someone with a pipe bender and a welder.
You might look at some Dr. Gas stuff. It's for exhaust (that's who does NASCAR exhaust).

But, they have "flat" oval tubing, and oval to round adapters, bends (of various degrees), and much much more. Could be useful, maybe?

Almost sad I'm out of the V12 stuff....
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Old 11-07-2011, 04:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Oxygen View Post
I really want to get those scorpion intakes made... SpeedDriven quoted me I think around $700 for their intake setup which I thought was a bit much.

I got to find someone with a pipe bender and a welder.
I was told that going with an open intake in the engine bay, that would be pulling in hot air, would not be good unless you have upgraded intercoolers.

If it helps why cant you just use some silicone Y's a bit of pipe and some K&N's ?

Tho I have read that some of the 55 guys have done this (open intake in the engine bay) and have seen a nice increase in HP, so maybe it would work ? They also have bad heat issues are are also ways looking for better cooling mods.

One example of the 55 --> https://mbworld.org/forums/w211-amg/...ir-intake.html

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Last edited by 1995E320Cab; 11-07-2011 at 04:53 PM.
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