Welwynnick

Interesting, I didn't know that.

It makes sense, as the Black doesn't have ABC, so the space in front of the LH front wheel well is freed up.

Many Porsches and Audis with turbo V6, V8 etc have two intercoolers on either side.

The BMW M5 has THREE IC heat exchangers - two as above, plus one in front of the radiator. That's really going to town.

Many big MB's have a supplementary engine oil or water radiator on the right, and it occurred to me to use that as a secondary IC instead of secondary radiator. Never did that, though, but I don't see why not (except very hot countries).

Nick

cij911

What about something like this as a heat exchanger: http://www.ebay.com/itm/18x20-Water-to-Air-Heat-Exchanger-1-Copper-Ports-with-install-kit/281580332928?_trksid=p2045573.c100505.m3226&_trkparms=aid%3D555014%26algo%3DPL.DEFAULT%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D38530%26meid%3D21409a1ce1094678a98c1480e76b08ec%26pid%3D100505%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D1%26

AMG_55_cruiser

I know I should read all 18 pages but was hoping someone can tell me if they have upgraded to an all aluminum radiator, utilizing stock ac condensor, upgraded intercooler and new ABC cooler? I have found an aftermarket intercool (HE) for around $300.

Any data would be appreciated.

Mick

ZephTheChef

I have the x3 radiator like Nick but my modded plastic end tanks keep leaking so I will be trying to make custom aluminum tanks. Haven't done it yet though.

Welwynnick

A custom all aluminium HE would ideal, but I have only ever fitted stock ally/plastic radiators. They're big and cheap, but fitting the header tanks in is tight.

Have you got a link to your prospective HE?

Nick

cij911

Nick, another common pump folks use in the US is a Rule 2000. Any thoughts ? (It appears to out flow the stock Bosch 010 in ideal situations, but I am not sure on the pressure / resistance of my setup.)

Welwynnick

I never paid much attention to Rule pumps, but I did look at some specs today. They're generally high flow / low pressure pumps, like engine cooling pumps.

The 2000 is popular because it has the steepest head/flow chart, but even then its only comparable to the Johnson CM90 or Jabsco 50840, and therefore little different to the -010 Bosch when installed in an IC system.

Moreover, Rule recommend the maximum head is only 3 or 4m, depending on model, and that's less than the normal operating point of the Bosch, which is about 5m.

They're not expensive, though.

http://www.xylemflowcontrol.com/files/950-0518.pdf
https://www.jabscoshop.com/marine/pu...ubmersible.htm

cij911

Thanks Nick ! When I looked at the graphs from Lingenfelter's thread (http://www.lingenfelter.com/forum_li...esting-results) it appears the Rule 2000 is a lot better than the Bosch 010 unless I am reading it wrong. I guess the question becomes what is the average "pressure" the pump would see on a common setup (trunk tank + larger heat exchanger + stock IC) ?

I am guessing the pressure is somewhere around 5 psi (or less) as the manufacturer would design the system to operate in the sweet spot of the pump, which would put the Bosch 010 at ~5 gpm vs. Rule 2000 at ~17 gpm.

With regards to the routing, I was thinking the best setup would be to have the trunk tank feed the IC, then the IC to feed the heat exchanger (as this would be when the water was the hottest), and then back to the tank. I was also thinking of placing a pump in the rear tank and then using the Bosch 010 after the heat exchanger (sending water back to the tank). Does this sound like an ideal setup to you?


Thanks again for the thread and all of your research and help.

Welwynnick

The Rule measures better than the Bosch. I compared manufacturer's flow charts, and the Rule met the claims, and the Bosch did not. The Rule also had a different pressure / flow characteristic - Rule say it's a straight line, but it looks like a normal (high flow) centrifugal pump in the test, which is better, as the actual flow is higher against a load.

The normal operating point of a pump is usually around half the open-pipe flow, and about 80% of the static pressure. That's where the pump is most efficient. The Rule pumps (like Johnson, Meziere and DaviesCraig) are obviously optimised for lower resistance circuits, and the benefit will only be fully realised by using a larger HE and larger pipes.

In an MB IC circuit, the Rule will only flow about 1gpm more.

Nick

cij911

Sorry, but why is that ? I can't seem to find a pressure at which the Rule 2000 only flows 1 gpm more than the Bosch. In fact in most areas of the mapping, it appears the Rule 2000 flows more than 10 gpm over the Bosch.

Thanks

Welwynnick

I'm afraid it doesn't work like that. You can't make a comparison at one pressure or one flow rate. When you increase flow into a fixed load like an engine or an IC system, you need to increase pressure AND increase flow.

The Bosch has it's operating point at one pressure and flow, and the Rule will have a different operating point at a different pressure and a different flow.

So the rule has to achieve more pressure and more flow in order to improve on the Bosch, not just be better at one parameter.

The way to match pumps and predict flow is to draw the pump's pressure/flow characteristic onto the cooling systems characteristic. The operating point is where the lines cross over.

Because the IC system has a steep system curve (ie: it's high resistance) that means the pump has to raise a lot more pressure to get a small increase in flow.

Nick

cij911

Sorry Nick, but how would one know the entire IC / HE pressure/flow characteristics? Also, my understanding of the individual pump pressure/flow curves was they literally show how much a pump can flow at a given pressure. As such why can't one overlay several pump curves (like you and LF did) and select the highest flowing pump across a wide pressure range (ideally the curve would be a horizontal line of X gpm)?

Welwynnick

Well that's a good question, and the real answer is that no-one outside of Mercedes knows the answer. I spent years trying to figure it out using information from lots of sources (including my own flow tests), and the best answer is given in the pressure / flow charts in this thread. I plotted two system curves - an optimistic, shallower one; and a pessimistic, steeper one.

I think the S600 system is probably close to the steep curve, though my car has a very large HE, and is probably close to the lower curve. The S55 & S65 have better HE's, and are probably less steep than the 600.

So ....... pick a curve. Lay the Bosch and Rule curves on the system curves and see where they cross over, and read off the horizontal interval to find the increase in flow. That's how it works.

My intention is to add the Rule characteristic to my chart, but Lingenfelter use different units and transpose the chart axes compared to everyone else in the World, so it makes it time consuming.

Nick

cij911

Nick, So I will be adding a 7 gallon water tank in the trunk of my e55 and running 3/4" lines. Currently I have the Bosch 010 pump up front and am wondering which point to add in the rear of the car (presumably right after the exit of the tank). My question is should I just add another Bosch 010, since I am using one up front, or should I get a much better pump in the trunk (e.g. Varimax or CWA-50 or LPE Stewart)? If I get a much better pump in the trunk will the Bosch 010 become a hindrance / detriment to the system ?

In terms of line routing my plan is to go from the tank to the IC to the HE back to the tank. If you have recommendations on pump placement in the equation, please let me know.

Welwynnick

Good question.

Better pumps are always better, and in the context of IC systems, that really means more pressure rather than more flow.

Since you're adding resistance, putting a second pump in series is a good idea. All the pumps you listed are good. I think the answer is that you pay your money and take your choice.

Make sure you're confident about how to drive the pump, though. The more sophisticated electronic commutator pumps, like the Stewart and Pierburg, aren't as straightforward to switch on as the Bosch.

Nick

oldsinner111

don't mean to bargde in,not long ago I read where some were running a ac cold coil line thru inter cooler.Getting awsome power gains.

Welwynnick

I've been meaning to pull a few bits of information together. I didn't appreciate it at first, but the V12 TT actually has quite big intercoolers. Each one measure about 4 x 8 x 8 in = 256 cu in = 4193 cc. However, some of that volume is used by the wall material and the headers, so the net intercooler core volume is actually about 3000 cc, or 6 litres for both IC's.

Sadly, the stock HE on the '600s is only about half that, but the HE is relatively easy to upgrade (which what a lot of this thread is about). So if you had even a modest upgrade to a 6.0 litre HE, that makes a total of 12 litres, which is fine for a 5.5 engine. I found a couple of other data points for other similar engines, and thought I would share.

First, here are the dimensions of the 5.5 V8 Kompressor engine:
https://mbworld.org/forums/w211-amg/...ler-kit-2.html
5 x 8 x 3.5 = 140 cu in = 2.3 litres
That engine has similar capacity and power to the V12, but clearly a much smaller IC, which has got to be a limitation.

Second, here are the dimensions of the IC in the regular BMW 4.4 litre twin turbo V8, which is fitted to the 550i, 650i and 750i:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2016437361...%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
144 x 130 x 64 mm = 1.20 litres. Total for two IC's = 2.4 litres, so similar to the S55K.

Third, the Audi A7 and VW V6 have large air to air coolers which measure:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/VW-Touareg...gAAOSwYudXGjU3
Height(mm): 287
Thickness(mm): 50
Width(mm): 292
= 4190 cc each, or 8.4 litres total. That's a good size, but again less than the V12TT. From memory, big Porsches are similar to big Audis.

You sometimes read how the V12TT needs lots of cooling, but what Mercedes fitted in the factory was better than some give them credit for.

Nick

ZephTheChef

Yes, there are kits out there "killer chiller" and others. And a few guys like me with DIY chiller setups. It's difficult to get a practical chiller setup for street use, but it can work great in cooler climates or for intermittent use.

ZephTheChef

For what it's worth, I'm using a single spare S600 intercooler on a 600hp twin turbo setup on another vehicle with no trouble controlling my charge temps. I think there's absolutely no reason to upgrade the intercooler cores...getting the pump/HE up to par is another story. The intercooler cores themselves are fine to I would say at least 1200+hp so long as you can keep the temp of the coolant flowing through them down. I was seeing around 110-120 degree F after intercooler temps @ 560hp worth of airflow through a single. It's worth noting that this is also with a stock S600 heat exchanger and pump. So basically double the heat exchanger to IC ratio considering I'm only running one IC core instead of two.

PrecisionEngine

Zeph:

you ever get this mounted up?

ZephTheChef

I actually ended up using the S600 HE on an out-of-town friend's car when the HE I built for him had a leak...and also have had a nightmare situation with getting the welder repaired...the guy lost the package, took MONTHS to find it, lol. So I only recently got it back and have not fixed my heat exchanger yet. I've been itching to get this car back up and going, it suck driving it around and not being able to put the pedal down!

I am hopefully getting back on track with this project and will report the EMP flow-test results when I can. It will be through an X3 radiator and stock intercoolers though, as opposed to the stock HE...I no longer have access to one.

MrDangerUS

Weight to performance ratio of the bar and plate intercoolers commonly available on the US market are quite abysmal! 6mm thick end tank walls are overkill.
I’m thinking about making a custom liquid-air intercooler with most efficient tube profile.
There are many alternatives!

1. ARE Cooling, Australia
ARE Cooling


2. PWR Performance Products

They offer a wide variety of lightweight tubular charge coolers/cores
https://www.pwr.com.au/portfolio/barrels-barbed-outlets

I'm sure there are others...
3. For example Mezzo went with micro-tubes https://mezzotech.com/why-micro-tubes/

Also, there is Intercooler_K&J_Hyde , which I've never heard about.

Everybody is claiming their product is "the best".
Is there any study to substantiate their claims?
In your opinion,

what profile (or manufacturer) offers the best performance?

Welwynnick

I always read that a better pump always gave better cooling, so I've followed a natural progression of pumps on my Eurocharged silver S600:

Bosch 0392 022 002
Pierburg CWA 50
Pierburg CWA 100
Pierburg CWA 200
Pierburg CWA 400
EMP WP29

I actually upgraded to a CWA-200 first, as I knew that worked with my Tecomotive pump controller. I was happy with the 200, but conscious that it was an engine cooling pump, rather than a charge cooler, and so a bit short on pressure. So I switched to a CWA 50, and it wasn't as good, subjectively.

I tried a -100 (the "AMG" or Renntech pump) but never got it to work right. The speed wouldn't control properly, and it kept frothing the coolant. I had another go last week, and gave up. You can tell its a powerful pump though. It twists in its rubber mounting when it switches on, and the swirl pot spins very fast.

So I went back to the -50, and spent ages bleeding, as usual. With the pump on full power, it, too, kept frothing the coolant. On the road, the car never performed right, and the Tecomotive temp display showed it wasn't cooling well.

I dropped the speed down to 50% and tried again. After running a while the coolant jets in the swirl pot turned clear, the pump ran quietly, and the coolant temp was stable. A few days before, when I opened the taps it never responded like it should, but now it was a proper flying machine again. After a long pull the temp rose quickly from about 23 up to 30 or 40 degC, and came back down again after a minute or two. This is coolant temp BTW, not IAT.

So, using a small pump at half power gave a good result. It's obviously essential to get all the air out of the system, but even then a fast pump seems to cavitate the coolant and froth it badly. The result is hot intercoolers. So sometimes less is more.

Nick

Crissus

The issue is the correct bleeding of the V12 TT intercooling system. Even the Mercedes Stock manual is not perfect. I know a well known german tuner that invented a tool for these engines for bleeding - I believe it was Seidt-Performance, or Renntech germany....

Welwynnick

I've been banging on about IC bleeding for years, but I think I've got it licked on this particular car. I don't have the W222 header tank, but I do have a three-port swirl pot, and that's connected to what were the fill ports on the intercoolers. I removed the absurd Schrader valves and replaced then with bleed ports that feed the header. My HE is also an upside-down radiator, and I use the drain port as a bleed port, and so avoid that air lock as well.

That's all a bit theoretical, but on a practical note I can see the speed and quality of the flow coming out the top of the IC's, and with the pump on 50%, it was clear that there was no air in the water - it was quite clear, and it stayed that way. Therefore I believe the system was bled properly.

It was only when I increased the speed of the pump that I saw the coolant frothing (though nothing like as badly as the CWA-100 did it). I can only run it that slowly because I have a pump controller - those that fit them direct to the ignition will have them running at nearly full speed all the time, and I worry what the coolant would like.

In the configuration I settled on, the car/engine/cooling ran extremely well - better than it has for years (since the suspension broke and the turbos broke and the transmission broke and the ignition switch broke and the tandem pump broke, etc etc).

So yes, bleeding is critical, but it's not the only thing, and I don't think it's the explanation in this case, as I would still see froth in the swirl pot at half speed. It could be that it's water vapour in the coolant, rather than air.

Nick