AMG_55

they rank the quickest 50 f1 drivers ever.....

senna is 1st, thats a given

michael is 2nd

fonso is 8th

kimi is 13th


with all due respect to ms, i think on the same day in the same car kimi will qualify faster and/or get the fastest lap. he might not win a long race against ms but over one lap i believe he is faster. i dont even wanna mention alonso, i have no clue as to how he is quicker that kimi, more complete driver, maybe, quicker no way in hell.


discuss

SeaCoupe

Okay, I will bite. I have not read the article, but back to back championships are worth something. If it is just a one lap comparison, I think that is a waste of ink. Who cares? One lap doesn't win a race.

E

egxpimp

True... we will see how he does at Ferrari. I'm just hoping he dosen't let Ferrari down, and go down the drain like it did before MS came.


Honestly hmmm its a hard one.
I like Senna, and i like MS

It is really hard to decide whos better BUT i think the reason Senna was given #1 is because of his tragic death.

They should have put MS and Senna both in #1...and Fonzi, wtf is he doing in 8th ? he should be in 50th!

hatem

i have not read the article either , but they always take statistics in consideration.

Such as wins ,poles, fastest laps, championships, etc...

Also i beleive that they gather this info from specific polls where whomever votes could be biased. As for having senna in first place, well that s the way its always going to be, and that is the way it has always been. personally i think that is because the majority of voters are british, so they will never rank SCHUMI as the # 1 driver.

Nola

This coming from F1 Racing mag... then I think no statistics went into it... just a columnists self righteous remarks. The articles in that magazine are very often biased, moody and filled with poor attempts at humor.

AMG_55

there was a panel of judges and they were asked to give points to their top 20 and then they worked out who was where. some **** like that.

there were a few team personnel judging




senna,ms #1

eg, youre crazy bro, if senna was alive ms would maybe be 3 time champ, 4 tops

dont get me wrong, ms is great, but senna is completely on another level to everyone, you see the wet donnington vid?

Nola

Exactly what I meant. Everyone's top 20 is purely subjective and many times biased... but then they use some bs score system to give it the illusion of a real speed ranking.

1985mb

Good point. Winning races is much more important than fastest laps or winning pole.

There was a time when Jarno Trulli (given the Jordans and other mid-level cars he was driving) had no place being in the top 3 rows but he put his car there with some quick qualifying runs...

But you have to win races (in a car from the top 3) or at least consistently win some points for your team (in a mediocre car).

1985mb

Haha, your dislike of Schumacher is clouding your judgment.

What exactly has Kimi done to convince you that he is quicker (by any definition of the term) than MS?

Mere up-and-comers should not be mentioned in the same breath as multiple WDC-winners until they have won at least one championship.

For once, egx might be right. Sentimentality about his tragic death will always propel Senna to the top of these subjective lists. Hard to choose between MS and AS.

Not to direspect Senna in any way. Ayrton
As the 1994 Brazil national team said moments after winning the FIFA World Cup (and weeks after Senna's death), "Ayrton, we accelerate with you"

egxpimp

We will never know, its all speculation. MS was beating AS, so who knows ? Both are two of the greatest we have ever seen!

Anyways, about porsches i tracked the car yday bro, check out a clip i have up so far... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXY9sxN9lTI

I'm uploading the rest..hmm some guy with a new zo6 and me where pretty much neck and neck, after a few laps i would start to gain on him...he said i did pretty damn good considering it was my 5th track day ever and first time at laguna...and he tracks there all the time/did skip barber ..tell me what u think bro !


p.s. hows my shifting ? i had to learn heal and toe in about a week !

1985mb

Again, without taking anything away from Senna, you seem to underestimate MS.

This statement is ludicrous considering MS won 5 championships in the 2000s, in an era when AS would have been long retired.

And although they didn't overlap for very long, there is some interesting data to compare AS vs. MS. In 1994, MS won both races before Senna's accident. Although the overwhelming favorite to win the Championship before the season started, Senna's battles against MS were competitive to say the least. In fact, Senna crashed/spun out at his home race in Brazil trying to catch MS in the lead.

Don't get me wrong; I am not a rabid MS fan. But I believe in giving credit where it's due. How come no one is mentioning Prost here? I haven't read and don't really care for the F1Racing article, but in a thread about F1 drivers how can we be talking about unproven talents like Kimi, and yet champions like Prost, Mansell, Piquet and Lauda don't get a mention? And I'm not even going that far back in time... Surely you guys have heard of Prost at least?

AMG_55

im not underestimating ms, i dont have anything against him, so he cheated, big ****in deal, i dont give a ****, i cheat/ed in school more than i care to do/remember. he is very fast and the most complete driver ever, no doubt but i dont recall him haveng the moment that senna had. (wet race at donnington when he went from 5th to 1st within the 1st lap, monaco 88 beat prost to pole by more than 1 sec. in same car)
ms never had a teammate that was on his level, never ever. senna did, and destroyed him.

[/QUOTE]
This statement is ludicrous considering MS won 5 championships in the 2000s, in an era when AS would have been long retired. [/QUOTE]

it is possible that senna would have been racing till 02 or so. we will never know

[/QUOTE]
And although they didn't overlap for very long, there is some interesting data to compare AS vs. MS. In 1994, MS won both races before Senna's accident. Although the overwhelming favorite to win the Championship before the season started, Senna's battles against MS were competitive to say the least. In fact, Senna crashed/spun out at his home race in Brazil trying to catch MS in the lead.[/QUOTE]

in 94 it was widely believed (still is) that shumachers car was illegal, he was supposedly running tc, there is no base for comparisons that year.


[/QUOTE]
Don't get me wrong; I am not a rabid MS fan. But I believe in giving credit where it's due. How come no one is mentioning Prost here? I haven't read and don't really care for the F1Racing article, but in a thread about F1 drivers how can we be talking about unproven talents like Kimi, and yet champions like Prost, Mansell, Piquet and Lauda don't get a mention? And I'm not even going that far back in time... Surely you guys have heard of Prost at least?[/QUOTE]

i have nothing against prost, ive read many articles/interview on him, senna later said that he only raced to beat prost, after prost retired ayrton lost motivation/interest to race.

kimi is not unproven, he destroyed both of his teammates (1 was a f1 veteran, the other super quick (recall 03, 7 poles in a row)). he fought for the championships in 03 and 05 and both times events that were not under his control let him down. in monaco (where driver skill is more important than car) 06 he was the fastest driver most of the race, in a **** car. go watch suzuka 05

kimi started 17th, alonso 14th, kimi finished 1st, alonso 3rd (i believe)

there is a reason that ferrari choose him as replacement for the most succesful driver in the history of the sport.

"fast as he is, you definitely feel he could put a little bit more into it away from the track. if and when he really decides to get with the programme the results could be frightening."
Mark Webber
Red Bull driver

Autosport Dec.28 06


you dont hear f1 drivers talk of others like that, ever

Lauda
piquet is og

mansell i dont really care for

Nola

Dude, you had the radio on while hot lapping laguna? You are more stupid that I thought

Anyway, is the corkscrew as difficult as it is in video games?

1985mb

You spew a lot of misinformation, and I don't have the time to correct/refute all of it. But this is the most egregious of your misinformed statements.

In the two seasons when Senna and Prost drove together for McLaren, Prost outscored Senna in each of those seasons.

It was only the stupid "Best 11 Results" rule that led to Senna winning the WDC in 1988, despite Prost actually scoring more points.**

Imagine how stupid that rule is and how you would react if that happened next/this year. Imagine Kimi scores the most points over the course of the season but someone else (say, Alonso) is awarded the WDC via such a dumb rule.

If you really want to learn some more about F1, start with the facts first ... and then read the stories behind them.

[Not only do Prost's results speak for themselves, but (to go on a controversial but interesting tangent) Alain's winning the Championship the following year (1989) was even more remarkable considering Senna's relationship with Honda and Honda's increasingly skewed allotment of engineering and other resources behind Senna and his cars/engines. We can talk about this separately, but like I said, Prost's numbers speak for themselves]

Bottom Line: You do not judge drivers or driving careers on the basis of one or two races or a few qualifying sessions.





Quote from another site:
** Only best 11 results counted toward the championship. Prost scored 104 points during the year, but only 87 points were counted toward the championship. Senna scored 94 points, with 90 points counted toward the championship. Thus, Senna became the World Champion, although he did not score most points over the course of the year.

egxpimp

My passangers where bored and wanted something to listen to, and they cranked up the radio, does it bug you when pp have the radio on? cant drive? dosent effect me at all... have you ever seen racing helemets, you pretty much cant hear anything ...so if had it off no bigg diffs..


and no the corkscrew is not that hard..challenging for first few turns then you nail it..and no problem at all..theirs a turn in thunderhill that i actualy feel more g's and find it more challenging then the corkscrew...does that sum it up ?....my biggest trouble was turn 4-5 trying to fine a pace/line to keep momentum...for example if i brake early in 4 that means comming out of 5 i would smash into 4th and hit about 120 before turn 6 ... but if brake late on 4 it means i wouldnt get to smash into 4th till late after turn 5.... this stuff is to complicated for you to understand nola...

egxpimp

This statement is ludicrous considering MS won 5 championships in the 2000s, in an era when AS would have been long retired. [/QUOTE]

it is possible that senna would have been racing till 02 or so. we will never know

[/QUOTE]
And although they didn't overlap for very long, there is some interesting data to compare AS vs. MS. In 1994, MS won both races before Senna's accident. Although the overwhelming favorite to win the Championship before the season started, Senna's battles against MS were competitive to say the least. In fact, Senna crashed/spun out at his home race in Brazil trying to catch MS in the lead.[/QUOTE]

in 94 it was widely believed (still is) that shumachers car was illegal, he was supposedly running tc, there is no base for comparisons that year.


[/QUOTE]
Don't get me wrong; I am not a rabid MS fan. But I believe in giving credit where it's due. How come no one is mentioning Prost here? I haven't read and don't really care for the F1Racing article, but in a thread about F1 drivers how can we be talking about unproven talents like Kimi, and yet champions like Prost, Mansell, Piquet and Lauda don't get a mention? And I'm not even going that far back in time... Surely you guys have heard of Prost at least?[/QUOTE]

i have nothing against prost, ive read many articles/interview on him, senna later said that he only raced to beat prost, after prost retired ayrton lost motivation/interest to race.

kimi is not unproven, he destroyed both of his teammates (1 was a f1 veteran, the other super quick (recall 03, 7 poles in a row)). he fought for the championships in 03 and 05 and both times events that were not under his control let him down. in monaco (where driver skill is more important than car) 06 he was the fastest driver most of the race, in a **** car. go watch suzuka 05

kimi started 17th, alonso 14th, kimi finished 1st, alonso 3rd (i believe)

there is a reason that ferrari choose him as replacement for the most succesful driver in the history of the sport.

"fast as he is, you definitely feel he could put a little bit more into it away from the track. if and when he really decides to get with the programme the results could be frightening."
Mark Webber
Red Bull driver

Autosport Dec.28 06


you dont hear f1 drivers talk of others like that, ever

Lauda
piquet is og

mansell i dont really care for[/QUOTE]
everyone bends the rules...its like buncah lawyers..lol bending the rules to their liking...anyones bro check your PM... i uploaded 1 ssession, haha i nearly lap everyone twice

Nola

Then you were going too slow

SeaCoupe

For us to explain why you need to pull your head out of your *** is just a bit much. You go ahead and and play Iron Eagle all you want EG. Yep, play that radio as loud as you want. I'm sure it even makes you faster. You have stopped making any sense to me.

Ed

MB-BOB

I don't get the mag, so I haven't read the article. Can someone post the top 20 here?

Where did Prost rank on this list? That will tell you where Senna falls (should fall) as well. (not #1) I think it laughable to compare drivers from different eras with current drivers.

You guys think it silly that Hakkinen wants to return to F1 only 5 years removed. Yet you guys compare Senna, dead now for 13 years (rest his soul) with Schumacher?

Don't believe everything you read in such esoteric exercises...

egxpimp

Yup can you post top 20... im sure prost/nigel/gilles, and others of that category are up there....

no matter what things will always be skewed towards senna thats just the way things will be... we cant say that MS would noe held every record because F1 changed so much..perhaps MS could have littelry killed every record even more...we will never know..


Mika...he was a fast driver but he didnt have the 'whole' package...i just wish he would have continued to race longer...same with Juan...


nola/ed... i asked vadim to critize me...because i think he is a better driver then me... i have told him that thousands of times in PM's,,,and he has proved it to me... i hate it how some pp just critize **** up their ***'s yet ..they dont have anything to backup their claim, ON WHY they think that... im getting critized by NOLA cuz i have music on ...great...show me how good you can drive and if you show me your better then ill take your ****en opinion serious other then that...blow off...Ed...what can i say... i havent changed...yeah i like to boast about my driving because i think im good..prove me wrong.... i would show you an email i recieved from someone about my lines at laguna seca but eh.. ill just get more hate here so **** it...and lets get back on topic..

F1CrazyDriver

lmao .......more like he was flying u guys should go to the track sometime for thoose who live in the bay area its fun espically when your in passenger with eg driving its like a roller coaster or better yet one of you guys should go for a Mt. drive with eg its fun ill pay anyone $20 to go in passenger seat with eg drving you will have the ride of your life

MB-BOB

You're listening too much to legend. As an adult, I watched every one of Senna's races, from his 1984 debut in the Toleman, the year before you were born. No doubt he was a brilliant driver, and I was a big fan, but he was no GOD.

No doubt there is a spot in everyone's heart because Senna died doing what he loved most, just as Jimmy Clark died 25 years before him. But that doesn't mean he gets an automatic pass to the head of the line. There were days when I watched Senna drive like an idiot. Suzuka, 1990 was only the most glaring instance. There were several others. I watched them all.

egxpimp

And thats fine...senna said you cant win them all....theirs days that you have it in you and days your dont... i agree.. thats right how could i forget about clark and that german that i cant pronounce his name...starts with a W... well i think what makes someone 'stand out' and rememberd...is someone who changes the sport... i think senna was doing that..thats why he was praised...how was he changing it ? with all his contraversial moves/out spoken etc.. as you said...its tooo hard to judge who truly is the best..because its diff erra/diff machines/diff style of drving... and as ms says...you cant compare -- just the way it is...maybe we should just compare by era... like example MS vs villnue...ms vs truly etc.

AMG_55

Jurors:
Gary Anderson
Daniel Audetto
Martin Brundle
Christian Danner
Anthony Davidson
Nick Fry
John Howett
Eddie Jordan
Rupert Keegan
Luca Marmorini
Sam Michael
Tiago Monteiro
Max Mosley
Stirling Moss
Ian Phillips
Tony Purnell
Sergio Rinland
Keke Rosberg
Rickard Rydell
Paul Stewart
Hans Stuck
Paul Stoddart
Marc Surer
Pat Symonds
Patrick Tambay
Mario Theissen
Jean Todt
Pascal Vasselon
Charlie Whiting

each juror ranked their to 20 drivers from 1950-2006, 20pts for their 1st 19 for the 2nd and so on....



1.Senna
2.Schumi
3.Clark
4.Mansell
5.Peterson
6.Fangio
7.Hakkinen
8.Alonso
9.Stewart
10.Rindt
11.Villeneuve Sr.
12.Moss
13.Raikkonen
14.Prost
15.Piquet
16.Ascari
17.Fittipaldi
18.Lauda
19.Bellof
20.Rosberg Sr.
21.Hunt
22.Jones
23.Cevert
24.Amon
25.JPM
26.Ickx
27.Andretti (mario)
28.Reutemann
29.Pryce
30.Scheckter
31.Hill
32.Brabham
33.Farina
34.Stuck
35.Pace
36.Brooks
37.Surtees
38.Servoz-Gavin
39.Berger
40.Siffert
41.Pironi
42.Trulli
43.Webber
44.Arnoux
45.Alesi
46.Gurney
47.Patrese
48.Jarier
49.Button
50.Brise
35.

hatem

i m surprised that jpm is in the top 25 and prost is after kimi. and mansell is # 4