Nola

My pleasure. Where were you in 1994?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gr00H...eature=related

Or in 1996?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cgfuo...eature=related




How about this bit of stupidity?

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xcz...-hamilton_auto

MB-BOB

I was watching the same race as you did. Difference is I live in the US so don't have a bias either for or against Schumacher, or for or against Damon Hill, the way the British broadcasters unabashedly whine about how poorly Shumacher treated Hill in that clip. Boohoo... I don't remember the US SPEED crew being so biased in interpretation as the British commentary posted.

One could argue that Schumacher's car was damaged when hitting the wall, he was still grappling to regain control of it and assess the damage before entering the next corner, and didn't see Hill, who chose to throw caution to the wind and attempt to pass a car not fully under control. But thanks for the correction, though.

It reminds me that Schumacher was just as selfish and childish (at times) as Senna undoubtedly was. Maybe we should review Senna's punching Eddie Irvine after the 1993 Suzuka GP... http://www.statueofpuberty.com/sop/i...e-suzuka-1993/

I am not a Schumacher fan, but I saw the incident with Villeneuve as nothing more than a racing accident. I wish I had a nickel for every time someone closed the door on another to grief the last 20 years or so. That goes for ALL the drivers, and yes, includes Schumacher.

Indeed, that was stupid too. As I wrote intitially, I am amazed to see that the rules permit anyone to drive outside the lines delimiting the Pit entrance road without penalty. At the apex of the pit entrance, all four of Hamilton's wheels are outside the lines...

Points out that there is something to be said in not asphalting the entire pit entrance area in China. They should change the rules, or dig up all that asphalt and plant 6 inch high furrows of kitty litter.

So are we agreed, then that Hamilton is just as selfish and reckless as Alonso, someone willing to wreck his own teammate? Is that what you want me to agree to?

Glyn M Ruck

Correct!

Schumacher has looked like a bloody fool this year. His on track behavior with the likes of Rubens was a disgrace. I think the $4 haircut should retire & for good this time.

MB-BOB

Schumacher said himself in his 2009 interview on Top Gear that the most challenging driver he ever faced was Hakkinen.

MB-BOB

Just to be clear, I have no problem ranking Senna as the finest driver since 1970. I just think it's important to recognize a balance... that Senna, while brilliant, was no angel...

Nola

Hey man, not trying to make you agree to anything, or attacking Shumacher or defending Alonso... just giving you more information as it seems to me you're only getting part of the picture.

The 1994 Adelaide crash is one of the most controversial of Schumacher's moves. It is not about who the commentators are. Granted not everyone has the same verdict, hence the controversy. I am surprised that you wouldn't know about that.

The 1997 (sorry made a typo, it was not 1996) crash is not controversial. It is well known as one of the most unsporting moves in F1. Schumacher had all his points for that year stripped by the FIA. I am surprised that you wouldn't know about that.

And where were you in 2010?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GgWMe...eature=related

He was penalized 10 grid places for that (not that I am not passing judgment, just pointing out what the regulators concluded)

Regarding the China move, not trying to get you to agree to anything... just pointing out that Alonso's move was not exclusive to Alonso (in fact he did it after Hamilton). FWIW, both moves were perfectly legal, and there is a bit of a back story in Alonso's case: turns out that Alonso sat patiently behind a slower Massa in a couple of previous races and got grilled by various stakeholders (including italian media) for not going after him... so he did go after Massa in this race, in a way that was perfectly within the rules (whatever one thinks of what the rules should be). That was the turning within Ferrari and after China, Felipe lost the mental edge.

About Kitty litter... Hamilton certainly has some history with China's kitty litter lol

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sR9rKvXscM

About wrecking team mates... there was at least one far worse example this season:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CUEH5KMR4ko

Glyn M Ruck

Agreed! - Jackie Stewart picked him out for criticism in a certain interview that turned acrimonious.

With the benefit of hindsight & the behavior of other drivers he was not too bad. Certainly not an angel.

I sometimes think it is the nature of the competitive beast - good losers are born losers! At the same time lets not have gloating winners.

Having run both car & bike race teams the temperamental are frequently the most talented. I, as an example, love the sunny Rossi character but underneath it all he is actually quite a tough young man. He is generally forgiven because we all like him.

I'm a Lewis fan but behind the scenes he can also throw his toys out of the pram & a few very expensive steering wheels on the track. I had the pleasure of meeting Hakkinen at Estoril in 1994 & found him to be a remarkably well balanced individual. Spent the whole week leading up to the race in the Paddock Club & with the team.

MB-BOB

Nola, I believe you can make your points without asking me "where I was in XXXX," stating that "I am getting only part of the picture," or stating your surprise that "I don't know or recall this or that"... As you and I have discussed countless times before this thread, I have watched every race and recorded every one available since the early '80s. So the subtle challenges are not needed, simply because I don't worship Senna without reservation, as many do...

As for Schumacher having all his points stripped for 1997, I still see his 78 points posted at this site (not that this is the definitive FIA site): http://en.espnf1.com/f1/motorsport/s...late=standings

Which brings up a final comment. I thoroughly enjoyed watching Senna drive 98% of the time. It was the occasionaly unexplainable silliness, and mean spirited connivances that prompts me and others to offer the minor counterpoint that Senna -- in fact -- did not walk on water... although in this internet age, I'm sure someone can post a link to prove that he did.

I made no suggestion that passing in a one-lane-wide pit entrance was illegal... only that it should be, for safety reasons.

As for Alonso being goaded into going after Massa, I remember watching my share of school yard fights during recess to conclude that the only thing that makes a bully worse, is when he lets others push him to be a bully. When a group of people take their entertainment so seriously that they turn it into a blood sport... this is what turns me off to boxing, bullfighting, and "extreme fighting" shows here in the US.

This is just my opinion, but I hate to see primal instincts displayed in auto racing, especially the pinnacle of auto racing. Now, the British racing press can be just as nasty as the Italian racing press. Yet, British drivers, like Mansell, D. Hill, Button, etc. don't seem to fall for it as readily. In contrast, it never ceases to amaze me how simple-minded latin-language drivers (Brazilian, Spanish, Italian) appear so susceptible to being goaded into "proving their manhood" by using such bullying tactics. And when a latin driver tries to be immune (Massa), he is villified for it.

If you can't cleanly pass an opponent on the track, where intended, then passing him where not intended (outside the lines) doesn't make one more of a man, but rather (IMO) more like a spoiled, undisciplined child, no different than the cretin who uses the breakdown lane/curbing to pass a queue of cars patiently waiting in the legally defined road.

Nola

Sorry if I sounded condescending, I simply meant to be challenging. Don't doubt you saw all races but you seem to be isolated from the aftermath and other key moments, that's all.

Here is the statement from formula1.com:

He was stripped of second position.

Again, I am not a Schumacher hater or lover, Senna hater or lover, etc. I simply love racing in general and F1 in particular. All of it.

MB-BOB

Very well, then, Nola. It's all good.

Nola

No need for stereotypes. Barrichelo, Massa, De la Rosa, Trulli, Fisichella... all "latin" without hot heads. Hamilton, Irvine, even Tracy... all anglos with hot heads.

MB-BOB

What you failed to quote was my caveat to disavow said stereotyping,

"And when a latin driver tries to be immune (Massa), he is villified for it."

I noted Massa as one example. Yes, all the others are the same. Too bad the Italian racing press predictably and unequivocally rates each of these others as #2 driver caliber. The stereotyping is theirs, I'm just drawing attention to it.

I appreciate your hanging on my every word, but please refrain from picking them apart, syllable by syllable.

What's up Nola? Normally, you are not this argumentative... I had Fettucini Alfredo for dinner last night. Does that help?

Nola

Anger stage of grieving for Ferrari losing out so miserably...

F1Bobby

Well love Schumacher and Senna or not they were World Champions for a reason. Did they take advantage of their teammates? The answer is an absolute YES! Did they both take advantage of other drivers? The answer is yes again. Both Schumacher and Senna were ruthless in their pursuit of the World Championship. Did they/do they have character flaws? Without a doubt! Here's the thing if nice guys were supose to win the World Championship then Rubens would be World Champion every year...
Senna and Schumacher are win at all costs machines and we love to hate them.
Alonso is somewhat the same! Will he take advantage of teammates? Yes! I am not a big fan of Alonso but he has the talent to be World Champion almost every year (depending on car and team!). Alonso is just not as ruthless as Schumacher and Senna is/was.

Martinsvi

While I agree with your assessment of alonso, the big difference is that both senna and schumacher could and did win with cars of known disadvantages and lack of competitiveness. While alonso was winning his 2 back to back championships with renault, he had a car that was in a class of its own those 2 seasons, and he still had to fight to win. Schumacher was competitive his second year at ferrari with a car that was a dog with fleas, and senna took the mclaren furhter than any other driver other than prost could have when they were losing their advantage due to engine formulas(which was sennas reason for leavin and going to williams) When alsonso returned to renault after pissing off everyone at mclaren his car was no longer the top of the heap and he became a also ran or moving chicane, only the last year with renault and the whole crashgate thing did we learn of the length;s he a briatore would go to.. I believe that this shows that alonso would be even more ruthless than the other 2,. Crashgate, stepneygate and the using of ferrari data for himself only and the massa incident shows he is not an first class person in my view.


Nola, while I can generally pull for ferrari(especially when mass/raikkenen/barichello were driving for them), I find it hard if not impossible to pull for them while they employ this spanish taxi driver. He was an *** to fisichella, hamilton and he will be the same with massa. I can and do pull for massa as he is a class person/driver. I sincerely hope that he can win a wdc in the next year or 2.

Glyn M Ruck

I have stated it earlier & I will state it again. Alonso has severe character flaws as a driver & has actually done his potential career no good. He is impetuous at all the wrong times both on the track & in his team/management/sponsor interactions. We have had a discussion in this regard in GP Week & most agree. His behaviour after the Abu Dhabi race with Petrov was typical of his nonesense.

His behaviour with Ron Dennis at McLaren was a joke.

Nola

Funny how we can all have very different perceptions/memories. In 2005, the fastest car by far was the McLaren, but horrible reliability killed it. In 2006 the Ferrari was the faster car by far especially after the FIA banned the mass dampers in the Renault, and Alonso had some awesome defensive drives. Alonso had to overcome very tough disadvantages that year: witch hunt by the FIA (mass dampers, bogus penalty for blocking, etc) and negative team dynamics because he announced his McLaren deal before the season started. Some classic defensive drives that year because the Renault wasn't the fastest car. I also see Alonso as one of the few drivers who can extract more from a car than it really has... the Minardi, the 06 Renault as described above, the 08 Renault (win in Japan), the 09 Renault (podium in Singapore), and even the 2010 Ferrari.

Nola

The guy is not the fastest, or most likeable, or most well spoken, or most popular, or groomed by from the crib to be an F1 champion, or a lot of other things... yet he is ALWAYS a contender. I think that is why I root for him.

Glyn M Ruck

My opinion of Alonso has steadily deteriorated over time. In an identical car Lewis will murder him & is more capable of driving around faults in the package.

Martinsvi

Nola...the whole mass damper was a red herring just like the front diff the hondas ran with Button. Everyone wanted to make a big deal of them but in the end it was nothing. The f duct was effective, but only on the really high speed tracks like spa/monza. And it really didnt help at spa with the rain. Monza it showed its value though. I would bet mclaren wouldnt have run it even if it was accepted next year as they will design something different to do the same effect next year that is better and maybe not even detectable by the scrutineers. Red Bull didnt have an fduct all year and they were winning left and right.

F1Bobby

You won't get any arguement from me on your post!

I think that Massa has been a class act these last years and I am sorry he lost the W/C a couple years ago. That was probably his only shot! I'd like to see Kimi back to see him outrun most of these guys (provided he has decent car and team). I have no idea at this moment where he would go but he would surely upset the apple cart wherever that may be. Ferrari, McLaren and possibly Red Bull is out of the question but Mercedes GP and Renault may be a good fit.

Nola

I think Lewis has 3 issues he needs to overcome before truly becoming god's gift to the racing world... 1) he needs to stop making hot headed moves into inexisting holes (Monza, Singapore) and 2) He needs to stop lying through his teeth every time there is a camera in from of him (I will never move out of England, I will never part ways with daddy, I was watching the GP2 race and didn't know the most-important-press-conference-of-the-year was going on, I did not let Trulli past, I was mislead into repeatedly lying through my teeth), and 3) he needs to control the mistakes whenever Alonso is in front or behind (Bahrain 2008, Korea and Brazil 2010). This last one is contentious, but I do think his driving changes in the presence of the Sith of F1.

The other big problem for Lewis is McLaren itself... whatever your opinion of who is at fault for 2007, ultimately McLaren should have controlled the inter-intrapersonal situation and not lost the championship in such glorious fashion. 2008 was fine but at the cost of 2009 when they did not give him a competitive car the first half, and in 2010 they failed spectacularly at the development race, usually McLaren's strength. That new rear wing, that saw them perform so well in Abu Dhabi, was a failure when first tested in Singapore and Japan. In general, McLaren is taking 2-3 races for their new developments to be effective, while for the others it is 1-2 races.

Glyn M Ruck

I partially agree with point 1

The rest have all been a typical part of F1 for years. Lewis had to part with Dad (& probably Ron - for all he had done for him). Both were messing with his mind & he was miserable. Martin Whitmarsh has written about this at length. Nicole has been good for Lewis. Lewis' fondness for his disabled brother is enough to tell me he is a good guy at heart.

By your standards Colin Chapman would have been labeled a cheating, lying *******. Lewis is extremely hard on himself - he openly admits that he has a habit of doing things the hard way.

As for the Singapore mistake. His fans expect him to take those sort of chances. Millimetres would have made him a hero. It was a racing incident & correctly classified as such.

Martinsvi

Now Nola..if the mclaren was unreliable(and it was ), does it really matter if it was faster.

I understand you like alsonso and ferrari, but this guy is a walking sphincter, he has been involved in numerous dubious events and has cheated by using stolen data from another team and didnt have the decency to share it with a junior teamate because he was waxing is ***, then tried to blackmail the owner of the company and that was when the story broke because Dennis turned his team in. His manager and team principle before and after mclaren is another known cheat in briatore..You are who you associate with,and his company isnt top shelf in the reputation dept.

Even with the mass dampers removed he was still qualfing well and turning in competitive times so I dont really buy into the whole defensive driving issue. The guy is just as I said before, like senna in his mercenary ways. He cares nothing of the team, only himself, and it will be the downfall of ferrari with him there.

Nola

I'l start that saying I am a fan of F1 first, drivers 2nd and teams 3rd. I try not to be a blind fan boy and thoroughly enjoy having smart discussions with people who form their own opinions based on the details.

The point about the 05/06 Renault is that it was not in a class of its own, that's all. Class of their own would be the F2002 or F2004. Even the RBR6 of this year.

Spy-gate... foremost, spy-gate is a McLaren issue, not a Fernando Alonso issue. Alonso's role in how it unraveled does not in any way add or take away from the root. Do you think Alonso somehow was the gate keeper of the stolen info and wanted it all for himself? first time I've heard that.

Crashgate... that was a Briatore/Symonds/Piquet issue.