W124 1993 300E 4Matic Question
12-06-2001, 04:23 PM
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1993 300E 4Matic
W124 1993 300E 4Matic Question
What wire can I use to run a toggle switch inside the car to activate/deactivate the 4Matic system from the control box under the hood near the battery? Right now I unplug the harness to the control box, which works, but then I get the ABS light on. (not a big deal) I just don't like going under the hood several times in the winter as I need the 4Matic for bad weather driving in Wisconsin. I was told by a reputable MD dealer that my transaxle is out and I need a new hydraulic valve to the tune of $4500. The 4Matic, when driven on dry roads shutters, chirps, in the front when you turn the wheel. Feels like the whole system binds up, especially when backing up. And when you turn off the ignition, the car lunges forward about 3-6 inches. By disconnecting the harness to the control box, the car drives beautifully as a 2 wheel rear drive. This car is a 1993 with 115,000 miles and is to beautiful to trade in. Most places are only offering $3200 or less as a trade in real dollars. I have the original window sticker and this car listed for $57,700
Last edited by Dan B; 12-06-2001 at 04:26 PM.
02-06-2002, 05:11 PM
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90 300TE 4Matic
What you have is a classic fault. It starts with a broken seal between the hydraulic control system on the transfercase and the case itself, causing hydraulic oil to seep into the transmission oil (still transfer case). The hydraulic oil has no lubrication properties at all, so a few of the push-bearings that move the clutches get worn out. They're part made of brass - nice and soft!
You need to have the whole thingy taken apart and som 25 gadgets in there exchanged for new ones. It's kind of expensive to have done, but not very difficult to do yourself. A trade in renovated case runs about US$1500 here in Sweden. Add some $600 to have a tech replace it for you. Could be the safest way to go.
If you want to drive your car, you NEED to place the test valve in the "test" position. It's the red hydraulic valve, right side by the washer fluid. You'll lose leveling control aswell.
I've had two 4matics, and both developed the fault you have on your's. Get it properly fixed, change the transfer case oil every year, and you're looking at another 80 kmiles at least.
It's a fantastic car, and - contrary to some posts i have seen - a real good 4wd system. I have a description of it at
http://frejvall.com/4matic
Check it out!
/perf
You need to have the whole thingy taken apart and som 25 gadgets in there exchanged for new ones. It's kind of expensive to have done, but not very difficult to do yourself. A trade in renovated case runs about US$1500 here in Sweden. Add some $600 to have a tech replace it for you. Could be the safest way to go.
If you want to drive your car, you NEED to place the test valve in the "test" position. It's the red hydraulic valve, right side by the washer fluid. You'll lose leveling control aswell.
I've had two 4matics, and both developed the fault you have on your's. Get it properly fixed, change the transfer case oil every year, and you're looking at another 80 kmiles at least.
It's a fantastic car, and - contrary to some posts i have seen - a real good 4wd system. I have a description of it at
http://frejvall.com/4matic
Check it out!
/perf
02-07-2002, 12:59 AM
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2005 smart cabrio; 2008 Mercedes-Benz B 200
4Matic
Very interesting 4Matic information!
However, I am not at all impressed by the technology employed. It is a truly inferior system. The fact that the default when the vehicle is moving without rear wheel slippage is Mode 0 (RWD 100%) indicates that this is a compromised system, with under-dimensioned front wheel drivetrain that is not capable of taking a full-time drive load. While this saves weight and enhances dry road fuel economy, it also makes rapid driving in mixed conditions patently unsafe.
I have driven other vehicles with a system like this (notably a 1996 Ford Explorer company car with "4WD Auto" setting) and by the time the rear wheels slip and the system reacts (usually less than one second later), the vehicle was destabilised and I was correcting a skid with opposite steering lock. The 4Matic system sounds identical to this particular Ford system.
Any proper 4WD vehicle will ALWAYS be in 4WD. Ideal torque split is likely somewhere between 35% front and 65% rear and 50-50, depending on the car's weight distribution. Anything else is a lousy compromise.
Even my father's Lada Niva 1,7i has full-time 4wd with a 50-50 torque split. It is a simple vehicle, so it has a manual locking centre differential. It is SUPERBLY stable on all road surfaces, including sheet ice.
Torsen differentials are far superior to locking diffs. For examples of proper 4WD systems, see the Subaru WRX, Audi Quattro, Peugeot 405 T16 and Mi16x4 and many, many others. They all are full-time 4WD, with front and rear wheels being permanently driven by default, have Torsen rear diff and viscous coupling at the centre differential to adjust front-rear balance somewhat. These cars are all extremely stable and may be driven very fast on roads with mixed traction conditions without the slightest imbalance. Because the default setting at speed sees all 4 wheels being driven even on dry roads, the vehicle's inherent balance is better if the road becomes slippery. These vehicles have no "mode 0" - a 0-100% default, as does 4Matic.
I suspect that the reason Mercedes-Benz makes information on the 4Matic system so difficult to come by is that they realise that it is a technically inferior system. While it may be safer than a RWD car for granny driving at 50 km/h to the Bingo hall, for high-performance drivers it is anathema.
I wonder if the newer 4Matics are any better in their conception. I was considering a C240 with 4Matic (when it's introduced for 2003) but if it's still of this old-school conception, I'll gladly skip it.
By the way, the failure mode you describe sounds like a classic case of a MAJOR design flaw. This mode of failure would not be possible if the system was properly designed. It is inexcusable, actually, really unbelievable for a German car!
However, I am not at all impressed by the technology employed. It is a truly inferior system. The fact that the default when the vehicle is moving without rear wheel slippage is Mode 0 (RWD 100%) indicates that this is a compromised system, with under-dimensioned front wheel drivetrain that is not capable of taking a full-time drive load. While this saves weight and enhances dry road fuel economy, it also makes rapid driving in mixed conditions patently unsafe.
I have driven other vehicles with a system like this (notably a 1996 Ford Explorer company car with "4WD Auto" setting) and by the time the rear wheels slip and the system reacts (usually less than one second later), the vehicle was destabilised and I was correcting a skid with opposite steering lock. The 4Matic system sounds identical to this particular Ford system.
Any proper 4WD vehicle will ALWAYS be in 4WD. Ideal torque split is likely somewhere between 35% front and 65% rear and 50-50, depending on the car's weight distribution. Anything else is a lousy compromise.
Even my father's Lada Niva 1,7i has full-time 4wd with a 50-50 torque split. It is a simple vehicle, so it has a manual locking centre differential. It is SUPERBLY stable on all road surfaces, including sheet ice.
Torsen differentials are far superior to locking diffs. For examples of proper 4WD systems, see the Subaru WRX, Audi Quattro, Peugeot 405 T16 and Mi16x4 and many, many others. They all are full-time 4WD, with front and rear wheels being permanently driven by default, have Torsen rear diff and viscous coupling at the centre differential to adjust front-rear balance somewhat. These cars are all extremely stable and may be driven very fast on roads with mixed traction conditions without the slightest imbalance. Because the default setting at speed sees all 4 wheels being driven even on dry roads, the vehicle's inherent balance is better if the road becomes slippery. These vehicles have no "mode 0" - a 0-100% default, as does 4Matic.
I suspect that the reason Mercedes-Benz makes information on the 4Matic system so difficult to come by is that they realise that it is a technically inferior system. While it may be safer than a RWD car for granny driving at 50 km/h to the Bingo hall, for high-performance drivers it is anathema.
I wonder if the newer 4Matics are any better in their conception. I was considering a C240 with 4Matic (when it's introduced for 2003) but if it's still of this old-school conception, I'll gladly skip it.
By the way, the failure mode you describe sounds like a classic case of a MAJOR design flaw. This mode of failure would not be possible if the system was properly designed. It is inexcusable, actually, really unbelievable for a German car!
Last edited by Mike T.; 02-07-2002 at 01:03 AM.
02-07-2002, 01:20 AM
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90 300TE 4Matic
Somewhat inferior, yes. Bad, no. The little slip you get at high speeds before the system kicks in is not that bad. I have driven the A8 with the S8 components for awhile, and allthough it is a dynamite car in all aspects, I still like the handling of the 300 TE4M better in some ways. Could be that the Audi is very light (-400 lbs) compared to the Benz.
As for the fault condition, totally inexcusable. But Benz needed to get the system to market real fast to compete with both BMW and Audi. I think they just bought it from another company and put it in the cars more or less as OEM.
The newer systems have torsen-like stuff with wheel braking as the main thing. I have driven them, and they handle real well on the road, but they don't kick *** up hills the way the old system does. I think the locking differential system has its merits.
As for the fault condition, totally inexcusable. But Benz needed to get the system to market real fast to compete with both BMW and Audi. I think they just bought it from another company and put it in the cars more or less as OEM.
The newer systems have torsen-like stuff with wheel braking as the main thing. I have driven them, and they handle real well on the road, but they don't kick *** up hills the way the old system does. I think the locking differential system has its merits.
02-07-2002, 02:16 AM
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90 300TE 4Matic
Somewhat inferior, yes. Bad, no. The little slip you get at high speeds before the system kicks in is not that bad. I have driven the A8 with the S8 components for awhile, and allthough it is a dynamite car in all aspects, I still like the handling of the 300 TE4M better in some ways. Could be that the Audi is very light (-400 lbs) compared to the Benz.
As for the fault condition, totally inexcusable. But Benz needed to get the system to market real fast to compete with both BMW and Audi. I think they just bought it from another company and put it in the cars more or less as OEM.
The newer systems have torsen-like stuff with wheel braking as the main thing. I have driven them, and they handle real well on the road, but they don't kick *** up hills the way the old system does. I think the locking differential system has its merits.
As for the fault condition, totally inexcusable. But Benz needed to get the system to market real fast to compete with both BMW and Audi. I think they just bought it from another company and put it in the cars more or less as OEM.
The newer systems have torsen-like stuff with wheel braking as the main thing. I have driven them, and they handle real well on the road, but they don't kick *** up hills the way the old system does. I think the locking differential system has its merits.
02-08-2002, 01:22 AM
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2005 smart cabrio; 2008 Mercedes-Benz B 200
good reference
http://home.attbi.com/~eliot_www/awd.html
This site goes over the pros and cons of different 4wd/awd conceptions. Check it out.
This site goes over the pros and cons of different 4wd/awd conceptions. Check it out.
