Musikmann

Hello,

I bought a CPO 2001 E320 w/53,000 miles in June 2006. After I drove 6000 miles, the FSS told me to add 2 quarts of oil which I did immediately (I had not been checking the level often enough obviously). After another 2000 I needed a 3rd quart, and then within 300 miles I needed a 4th added.

I realize, that on average, 1 qt per 2000 miles is not completely out of line, but what concerns me is the gradual increase. The dealer I took it to last week said I have no obvious leaks, but they ran a Star diagnosis and are supposed to relay the results to MB and will perform any additional tests that they are told to do.

Does anyone have a feel for what is going on? The only thing I feel comfortable about is that I am still well within the Starmark warranty period (over 12 more months and from ~61,000 to 100,000).

Thanks in advance for any, and all, replies.

sosh

There obviosly is a problem here. Let the dealer do what he has to do in order to diagnose it. Could be lots of things, broken ring, bad valve seals, etc. Do not let up on the dealer and do not let the warranty expire without a resolution. As a note, in the past 5 MB's I have owned 3 were 320's and 2 were (are) 500's I have never had to add a drop of oil between changes which were all done in accordance with the FSS.

loubapache

I feel for you, Musikmann. I hope MB will give you a rebuilt or new engine.

I think your engine is the victim of that glorified service reminder, aka, FSS, and the competition to have a lower cost of ownership. Your car has the free maintenance under warranty so it should have followed the recommended oil changes to the German letters but the engine is having problems. If you check the service records, I would guess that most oil changes were performed at 13k mile intervals, if not longer. The logic conclusion is that either the engine was defective from the factory or the oil change intervals were too long. Some people did not have problem following the FSS but only time will tell. When these engines go past 150k miles, then we can tell if these oil change intervals are long or short. One thing we do know is that the pre-FSS engines can handle 150k miles without problem although some might need valve seals or gaskets.

Do not QUOTE me on the following but I read from somewhere and here is what I recall how MB will handle your case.

Once they determine the engine is really using oil after a period of monitoring (you have gone through this), they will first assume the engine has minor sludge problem. I think the procedure is to change the oil and filter, and then run the engine for like half hour or so. The oil and filter are changed again and they monitor the oil level again. They HOPE that the engine just has some sludge (due to the long oil change intervals) and the flush would dissolve/dislodge the sludge.

If that does not cure it, then they will assume it is engine hardware problem. I have heard of rebuilt or new engine being installed but there does not seem to be a fixed pattern as what they would do.

It is sad to see a 50-60k mile car having this type of problems.

I have owned 5 MB's and only one is this M112 engine. The previous 4 did not have any oil consumption problem (but the German rubber somehow does not like to keep the oils where they belong. Hint: leaks).
My 2003 E320 Wagon has followed the FSS recommendations (free services under warranty). Mine does not have oil consumption problems (yet) but I have not owned for long. I DO notice that the Mobil 1 0W-40 in there is getting dark faster than any cars I have owned. Although the color of the oil does not mean the oil cannot be used, it does suggest that the inside of the engine is not in its cleanest condition. I will drain the oil after 6 month with probably close to 3k miles.

Musikmann

Thanks sosh and loubapache,

I was talking with this dealer's most seasoned tech while I was still waiting around and he had heard why I was there. In his opinion, I might not be driving the car hard enough, and said that if I try that, he bets that I will see my oil use slow down.

He mentioned that his mother has a W210 4matic and when he drives it, he always pushes it pretty hard. He said I won't hurt anything and advised that I start "putting the petal to the metal".

He also said he has replaced several MB engines with rebuilt ones (he was not specific as to the type) and most were fine, but there were also a couple of bad ones; he estimated 1 out of 15 were bummers right out of the crate. I would also not know anything about the engine's history, whereas I know eveything about mine (I bought used but I do have the complete service history). As Lou speculated, the FSS has been followed to the letter, and I think the oil looks pretty dirty right now.

With that said, I have mapped out about a 15 mile course where I can get into kickdown mode a couple of times (almost legally), and I'll be doing that about once a day and monitoring the oil level.

Thanks again for your advice and interest guys.

loubapache

What that tech said is possible.

If a car is not driven hard enough, sludge and deposits can build up because the engine may not see operating temperatures if the distances are short.

That calls for an "Italian Tune Up."

Here is what people usually do in an Italian Tune Up.

Use Techron in the gas. You do not want to add this because your car is under the MB radar. They can easily deny your warranty if you do something like this.

Put it in 3rd gear and go to the highway. Run the car so the engine speed is in the 4000 - 5000 range for a good 15 - 30 minutes. If the engine has sludge and deposits, people can literally see a little smoke coming out of the tail pipe.

Change the oil. Again you do not want to do this.

sosh

Sorry but I do not buy that. Perhaps it could be true with a new or near new engine but not one thats seen lots of miles and should be well broken in. Even your qt per 2000 miles is quite excessive even though if falls within MB's "normal" range. As for the "Italian tune up" do not but that for this problem either, perhaps if the engine is carboned up but that rarely happens with the newer computer controlled injected engines any more. No addative should be necessary if you ate using the correct fuel. As far as the reman engines, they should be done by MB to new specs with most new moving parts except perhaps for the crankshaft. I also fine it hard to believe that the "bad engines" as stated by the tech are as high a percentage of bad ones. The history of the engines is unimportant if it an MB reman. Also keep in mind that the reman engine carries a warranty also. I have also found that some techs even though they are quite competent do run at the mouth and like to hear themselves talk. The 120 factor is irrelavant as this enigne is used in many models and in fact except for some accessories is essentially the same mechanically. Remember I have had 3 vehicles with this engine and have never had to add a drop between FSS changes. You will find that most people have had the same experience. Those who do have oil consumption problems have a reason that is mechanical for these problems. There is a problem there do not buy this guys BS. If a reman is an option let them do it. Its far better than having them tear down you engine to repair it. Remans are done in an enviornment that is designed for the process and should be dyno tested which is impossible on a shop floor.

Musikmann

Hello again Lou,

He said a couple more things that I neglected to mention.

He described a condition that he called "valve overlap" where the intake and exhaust valves remain open longer than they should. This evidently occurs when we are driving moderately. As a consequence, a partial vacuum is created within the cylinders and oil is pulled into the cylinders past the oil rings. Further, that then the compression rings develop a build-up of "crud". When we drive these cars hard, this will not happen. Does that make sense to you?

BTW, like you wrote, I am under the MB radar, but wasn't it you who wrote that MB approves of Techron as a gasoline additive? I don't have any in the tank now, but I have probably used 4 large bottles during the 9000 miles I have owned this car.

Lastly, when this dealer sees an oil leak in a new car, they gear it down, and run it hard on the nearby Interstate to, I think they said, set the rings and seals. The service manager and I discussed that tactic (sounds pretty similar to your Italian tuneup), but he said my engine should be settled in by now. He was right there when that tech told me to start driving the Hell out of it. He said further that "I am not a technician, but if one tells you to do something, I would advise that you to do what he says".

sosh

If oil is being pulled by the oil control rings then the rings are bad. Try what he said but I feel that it will not help. As for Techtron, I did not say that you said to add it, someone else did. It will not hurt but most likely will nnot help. The 01 E320 I had was driven by my wife and she is a very very mild driver, Her commute to our office is less than a mile and that happened every day. When I traded the car it had about your miles on it 95 percent of which was city driving and it burned absolutly nothing between changes.

Musikmann

You and I were writing at the same time, and I responded to Lou before seeing what you just wrote (quite a bit to digest there). I have read your post, and appreciate the feedback. Would you please read what else I wrote and see if that has any bearing on your answer?

I would like to underline one thing now though. I agree that a MB remanufactured engine would be preferable to a dealer (in the shop) re-build, or fix. Also, I didn't get the impression that the tech was trying to talk me out of replacing the engine. He wasn't even working on the car, and maybe just "running at the mouth" as you put it.

The problems (with reman engines) I remember him mentioning were of an electrical nature. But as you pointed out, there should be at least a 12 month/12,000 mile warranty on those like any MB part we buy from them.

Musikmann

Thanks Sosh, we are still writing at the same time. The example you used of your wife's car is right on the mark. Except for the couple of times I have taken a 400 mile round-trip to see the girlfriend, I have been mostly driving like your wife was during her commute.

Sorry, but I thought it was loubapache who stated that MB approves of Techron on another thread. I will only use Chevron Supreme gas too, for what that is worth.

Oil control rings sound like plausible reason. Can they diagnose those by using the bore scope and looking at the cylinder walls?

loubapache

Yes, it was me who started the techron thing. MB approves two fuel additives, one is its own and the other is techron. It is in the 2006 Approved Products List that I am attaching here.

LOL, you need to see your girlfriend more often so the car can work out. You might get a work out too.

About warranty. MB might just give you the COP warranty, rather than the warranty of the engine. It is like the standard warranty. If your engine fails at 48k miles and they install a new engine. That engine warranty is only to 50k miles, right?

Musikmann

Sorry, I do not know what this 120 factor signifies?

Musikmann

Haha, good points made here Lou. I used to think I was being good to the car by driving about 80 mph for 200 miles each way, but the RPMs rarely go over 3000 the way I have been driving it (using D in other words).

That's a good question about the warranty. If only the CPO is used, I will have only about 14 months and 38,000 remaining on a remanufactured one.

loubapache

You might want to read this thread:

http://www.mercedesshop.com/shopforu...d.php?t=186815

Read what "ILUVMILS" has to say about the M112 engine. He is a master MB tech. Here I quote:

"The M112 V-6 is a good engine as well, but like the M104, has it's own inherent issues. The most serious, IMHO, is the possibility that it may require a complete tear-down and re-ring at higher mileage, due to oil consumption. I've seen plenty of well maintained M112's come in with stuck/worn piston rings. MB will usually help out with the cost of the repair, as long as there is proof of maintenance and the mileage is less than 100K. After that, it can get pretty expensive."

I always wonder why oil consumption after 100k miles. Some, mself included, blame the long oil change intervals.

Musikmann

I just read that thread Lou, and have joined that forum as well. Thanks, and it sure looks like I am going to need some new oil control rings. That guy ILUVMILS sounds like he knows what he is talking about.

BTW, for you and Sosh, that tech here did not say "hot *******" my car will fix my problem, he only said I should see a decrease in oil consumption. We'll see what that does (if anything) and also what MB comes back with to have the dealer do next.

I hope that this particular tech (a lot of customers request that he do their work and my salesman says the same thing) knows how to do a competant ring job, if it comes down to that.

You have pretty much convinced me that a ~5000 mile oil change interval makes more sense. I have seen others on these forums say that they change theirs more often than their FSS tells them too also.

loubapache

If your car were a 1998, then one can blame the design or workmanship. Since yours is a 2001, MB should have plenty of time to fix whatever design flaws. As a matter of fact, many of these engines in W211 still see oil consumption after 50k miles, following FSS to the letters.

Almost all MB engines before FSS rarely had problem like this (I think the only exception was the 3.5 L diesel due to weak rods). And most of these engines were on conventional oils but they got changed more frequently.

That same master MB tech also suggest oil changes more frequently than FSS. It is somewhere in the archives. Do a search and you might find it. I am only recalling.

loubapache

MM:

I did a quick search and found that master MB tech indeed advocates more frequent oil changes. LOL, my memory is still holding. Here are a few threads (There are many more). Thread is followed by a quote of his:

http://www.mercedesshop.com/shopforu...ght=oil+change

"For what it's worth, I tell anyone who cares to listen that they should change their oil and filter at half the factory recommended interval, that is, if they plan on keeping the car for many years."


http://www.mercedesshop.com/shopforu...ght=oil+change

" A couple of "in-between" oil changes won't hurt either."


http://www.mercedesshop.com/shopforu...ght=oil+change

"An MB engineer told me that sludging starts within "several hundred" miles of exceeding the mileage interval. Every month my shop does a couple of overhauls due to oil consumption/sludging/knocking issues. Invariably, I find that alot of these cars have had oil changes at 14,000-15,000 mile intervals, so he must have been correct."
.
.
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Musikmann

I am still waiting for the email before I can join that forum. As soon as I am in, I will be looking around in the archives Thanks again for the tip to another good MB forum.

Musikmann

Thanks for the additional links too Lou (or is it Bo? - you changed your signature recently)

BTW, I'll tell the GF what you said about those work outs - she'll love it!

loubapache

Yes, it is Bo, MM.

Well, tell her it is good for her, just like it is good for the engine.

sosh

I think that its possible that what was said is true except that with the 112 engine very few have experienced these problems. As far as sludging goes, yes this can effect the rings but most of the damage is done to the bearing surfaces due to reduced oil flow. The upper end of the engine gets the worst of it, cam, valve gear etc. The sludging with synthetic oils in minimal. As so far as a borescope, you really can't see the rings, just scores in the cylinder walls if any. They will most likely borescore it and check the valve seals before proceeding with any reman. As far as electrical problems with the reman, that would be more than likely an installation error but thats easy to diagnose and correct for a decent tech. Keep in mind that some of the comments come from people who work in shops, these people see only the problem engines, not the 100 thousands of them that are trouble free. I was convinced of the benefits of synthetic oils when I began to fly turbine powered aircraft in the 60's. I saw these engines that required an oil change maybe after 500 to 600 hours instead of the 100 hr intervals with dino oil. I also saw minimal wear at overhaul in some cases at 10000 hours as opposed to 2000 or so hours with dino oil.And, no sludge at all with the synthetics.
Where are you in WVA?? I used to go in and out of Charleston lots in my early days of airline flying and in and out of Parkersburg with my corporate flying. Tough area to get in and out of in the winter!!

Musikmann

Hey guys,

Does anyone know if there is a good enough track record on the 350 engine yet from which we can judge oil consumption of those?

Also, what changes, if any, have been made to the M112 between my 2001 and the 2005 (last year for it as far as I know).

Musikmann

Hello again Sosh,

I am in Huntington, which has a pretty crappy airport too. I have flown in and out of Charlestion (now named after Chuck Yeager btw) quite a bit over the years (beginning in about 1970) because the connections are better. I have never had the pleasure of flying to Parkersburg. However, I drove there not long ago (100 miles) to get the complete service history on this car from that dealer who had done all the A and B services for the original owner. They are named Astorg Motors, and they also sold mine as a new car.

I see you are in Philadelphia. I work for a company in Chadds Ford, and the first time I flew to Philly, I drove to Charlestion for a direct flight. For some reason, air travel between WV and there is expremely expensive. That flight I mentioned was $1200 round trip!

loubapache

<<
Keep in mind that some of the comments come from people who work in shops, these people see only the problem engines, not the 100 thousands of them that are trouble free.
>>
I kind of disagree with the above.

Many M112 engines are using oils. That is why there was that class action lawsuit. And that is why MB lost the lawsuit and agreed to increasing the warranty of those covered under the lawsuit. However, there are many that are not covered under the warranty (MM's is one of those) that are also using oils and many of these have seen nothing but synthetic oils following the FSS.

Musikmann

Correct Bo, the service manager I discussed this when another service advisor had recommended the oil consumption test about a month ago.

The cutoff from that lawsuit was March 2001 and I have a car with an August 2001 build date. He therefore recommended that we watch the car for now. Well, that was about 300 miles ago (right after I added the 3rd quart) and I have since added the 4th quart. The next step was the Star diagnostics they performed last Friday, and then they submit that info to MB on some special form. MB then directs the show from now on.