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CL65 FOR SLAE 2005 W215 """"""""white""""""

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Old 01-23-2010, 02:01 PM
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2005 CL65
CL65 FOR SLAE 2005 W215 """"""""white""""""

WELL HERE IT IS I HAVE A 2005 CL65 "WHITE WITH BEIGE INTERIOR" IT HAS MERCEDES WARRANTY TILL 2012 WHICH I PAID ALMOST $5000 TO GET (WAS WELL WORTH IT) I THINK I HAVE ONE OF THE MOST PRISTINE AND CLEANEST CL65 OUT THERE. THE REASON WHY I SAY THAT IS BECAUSE ALL THESE GUYS RACE UPGRADE AND DO ALL THIS STUPID OTHER MODIFICATIONS TO THE CAR AND I THINK THAT IS WRONGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG.

A CL65 HAS TO BE STOCK AND BABIED. I HAVE ALL THE SERVICE RECORDS FROM DAY1 IT WAS NEVER INVOLVED IN ANY ACCIDENTS OR FENDER BENDERS IS PRISTINE CONDITION. THE BACK SEATS WERE NEVER EVEN SAT ON.

IT HAS 37,500 MILES AND I NEVER RACED IT IT DROVE IT HARD I HAVE ALL SERVICE RECORDS THAT WERE DONE AT RAY CATENA MERCEDES BENZ.

THIS IS A WHITE ONE NOT BLACK GRAY SILVER OR OTHER NASTY COLORS IT IS MY DREAM CAR AND NOW I HAVE TO SELL DUE TO FINANCIAL TIMES.

REMEMBER MY CAR HAS WARRANTY WITH MERCEDES TILL 2012 VERY IMPORTANT WITH THESE CARS.

IF INTERESTED EMAIL ME EDDIES65AMG@YAHOO.COM OR CALL 917-692-5649
PLEASE ONLY SERIOUS BUYERS NO DAY DREAMERS WILL TAKE REASONABLE OFFERS
OTHER GENTLEMAN SELLING HIS 06 CL65 WITH NO WARRANTY HERE FOR $75,000 AND MY CAR IS PRISTINE
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Old 01-23-2010, 02:16 PM
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Originally Posted by EDDIES65AMG
WELL HERE IT IS I HAVE A 2005 CL65 "WHITE WITH BEIGE INTERIOR" IT HAS MERCEDES WARRANTY TILL 2012 WHICH I PAID ALMOST $5000 TO GET (WAS WELL WORTH IT) I THINK I HAVE ONE OF THE MOST PRISTINE AND CLEANEST CL65 OUT THERE. THE REASON WHY I SAY THAT IS BECAUSE ALL THESE GUYS RACE UPGRADE AND DO ALL THIS STUPID OTHER MODIFICATIONS TO THE CAR AND I THINK THAT IS WRONGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG.

A CL65 HAS TO BE STOCK AND BABIED. I HAVE ALL THE SERVICE RECORDS FROM DAY1 IT WAS NEVER INVOLVED IN ANY ACCIDENTS OR FENDER BENDERS IS PRISTINE CONDITION. THE BACK SEATS WERE NEVER EVEN SAT ON.

IT HAS 37,500 MILES AND I NEVER RACED IT IT DROVE IT HARD I HAVE ALL SERVICE RECORDS THAT WERE DONE AT RAY CATENA MERCEDES BENZ.

THIS IS A WHITE ONE NOT BLACK GRAY SILVER OR OTHER NASTY COLORS IT IS MY DREAM CAR AND NOW I HAVE TO SELL DUE TO FINANCIAL TIMES.

REMEMBER MY CAR HAS WARRANTY WITH MERCEDES TILL 2012 VERY IMPORTANT WITH THESE CARS.

IF INTERESTED EMAIL ME EDDIES65AMG@YAHOO.COM OR CALL 917-692-5649
PLEASE ONLY SERIOUS BUYERS NO DAY DREAMERS WILL TAKE REASONABLE OFFERS
OTHER GENTLEMAN SELLING HIS 06 CL65 WITH NO WARRANTY HERE FOR $75,000 AND MY CAR IS PRISTINE
You sure do have a lot to say for someone whose only two posts on mbworld are to unload his car... way to contribute to the community....

Tom
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Old 01-23-2010, 02:21 PM
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Your worst nightmare...
Originally Posted by TMC M5
You sure do have a lot to say for someone whose only two posts on mbworld are to unload his car... way to contribute to the community....

Tom
+1

I don't think you will be selling your car on this board with that type of attitude. First of all when you buy your car you do as you please with it. Its your damn car, if I want to race from sun up to sun down that is my business. If you want to baby your car be my guest, but quite frankly these cars were meant to be driven hard. Good luck with your sale.
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Old 01-23-2010, 02:23 PM
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Forget that, look at his asking price ROFL
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Old 01-23-2010, 04:08 PM
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Originally Posted by EDDIES65AMG
. THE REASON WHY I SAY THAT IS BECAUSE ALL THESE GUYS RACE UPGRADE AND DO ALL THIS STUPID OTHER MODIFICATIONS TO THE CAR AND I THINK THAT IS WRONGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG. its called enjoying the car to its fullest potential. driving like a pu**y is gaaaaaaaaaaayyyyy

THIS IS A WHITE ONE NOT BLACK GRAY SILVER OR OTHER NASTY COLORS sorry, whit is one of the least desirable colors
OTHER GENTLEMAN SELLING HIS 06 CL65 WITH NO WARRANTY HERE FOR $75,000 AND MY CAR IS PRISTINE

the car you are refering to here is gripforce65's car. he sold his 06(not 05)white cl65 with 19kmiles(not 37kmiles) pristine shape,factory warrantied,$3k ecu upgrade. he sold this car over a year ago and got $60k for it.

good luck
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Old 01-23-2010, 04:14 PM
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2005 CL65
WELL SORRY BUT IM NOT 25 YEARS OLD LIKE MOST OF YOU ON THIS SITE AND I DID NOT PURCHASE MY CAR FOR 60K AND TRYING TO RESALE IT HERE. THIS IS A CLEAN NON MOLESTED WHITE CL65 WITH WARRANTY. NEVER KNEW ABOUT THE SITE AND HOW MANY DEDICATED ENTHUSIASTS ARE ON THE SITE.

PS: DOES ANYONE ALSO KNOW WHERE I CAN GET LORINSER SPOILERS AT A DISCOUNTED PRICE?
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Old 01-23-2010, 04:29 PM
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Originally Posted by EDDIES65AMG
WELL SORRY BUT IM NOT 25 YEARS OLD LIKE MOST OF YOU ON THIS SITE AND I DID NOT PURCHASE MY CAR FOR 60K AND TRYING TO RESALE IT HERE. THIS IS A CLEAN NON MOLESTED WHITE CL65 WITH WARRANTY. NEVER KNEW ABOUT THE SITE AND HOW MANY DEDICATED ENTHUSIASTS ARE ON THE SITE.

PS: DOES ANYONE ALSO KNOW WHERE I CAN GET LORINSER SPOILERS AT A DISCOUNTED PRICE?
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Old 01-23-2010, 06:34 PM
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How would you know the age range here? I doubt there are many 25 year olds driving 65's and please take the caps off are you new to the internet?
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Old 01-23-2010, 07:08 PM
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05 cl55 amg Renntech air box w/ K&N's LET 180 pulley & Tune, HE & Pump, 3'' Exhaust res/cat delete
I'm 24 and I have had this car for about almost 2 years but what does that mean anyway??? does it really matter the age of someone granted i didnt buy it new or a cl65 I have a cl55 does that make you different/better??? what are you trying to say about your comment anyway?? regardless of anything as far as how you drove it when you bought etc etc there are only a few things that matter about trying to sell your car... year, mileage (most important with these cars), condition, warranty, color partially. and at the end of the day you can ask for whatever you want to sell it but it's only worth as much as someone is willing to pay and no one in there right mind will buy your car for even close to what your asking! lol
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Old 01-24-2010, 12:04 AM
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i think i here your mommy calling you in the background telling you to get off the computer and do your homework......
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Old 01-24-2010, 05:04 AM
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Good luck with your sell prices cause someone will buy it in 2 years from now.
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Old 01-24-2010, 11:53 AM
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Originally Posted by EDDIES65AMG
WELL SORRY BUT IM NOT 25 YEARS OLD LIKE MOST OF YOU ON THIS SITE AND I DID NOT PURCHASE MY CAR FOR 60K AND TRYING TO RESALE IT HERE. THIS IS A CLEAN NON MOLESTED WHITE CL65 WITH WARRANTY. NEVER KNEW ABOUT THE SITE AND HOW MANY DEDICATED ENTHUSIASTS ARE ON THE SITE.

PS: DOES ANYONE ALSO KNOW WHERE I CAN GET LORINSER SPOILERS AT A DISCOUNTED PRICE?
Well I'm 41 y/o FYI if it matters.

Sir, I will edumacate you a bit with respect to selling your vehicle on OUR forum.

First off you were correct about many of us being dedicated Mercedes-Benz / AMG enthusiasts. That means we actually know a great deal about these (our) cars including approximate wholesale and auction pricing. Here is what your car is really worth wholesale. Retail is usually marked up 3-5K above this. You may be able to get a few thousand more then most because of the color and condition but not much more.

Vehicle Identification
Search: Select Region: National
Year: 2005 Seasonal Adjustment: No
Make: MERCEDES-BENZ
Model: CL CLASS
Style: 2D COUPE CL65 AMG
Transactions
Date Auction Sale Type Price Odometer Cond Color Eng Trans In Sample
11/03/09 SKYLINE Regular $40,800 48,298 Avg Black 12C A Yes
10/29/09 NEVADA Lease $33,000 73,467 Avg BLACK 12 A Yes
09/23/09 W PALM Factory $39,500 23,334 Avg BLACK 12G A No
09/21/09 166 Regular $41,000 58,522 Avg Black 12C A Yes
09/11/09 MANHEIM Regular $42,000 46,557 Avg Black 12G A Yes
08/27/09 RIVRSIDE Regular $34,500 49,425 Avg Grey 12G A No
08/27/09 RIVRSIDE Lease $27,500 104,556 Below BLACK 12G A Yes


Second, we don't need the cheap sales talk about how great your car is compared to other CL65's. I agree it is good to let prospective buyers know your car is stock and well serviced, but it is not cool to discredit other peoples cars because of color and modifications. Maybe somewhere else, but not HERE! Believe me that all the AMG owners on this site take very very good care of there cars.

Good Luck.

Larry
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Old 01-24-2010, 12:06 PM
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Originally Posted by france2112
Well I'm 41 y/o FYI if it matters.

Sir, I will edumacate you a bit with respect to selling your vehicle on OUR forum.

First off you were correct about many of us being dedicated Mercedes-Benz / AMG enthusiasts. That means we actually know a great deal about these (our) cars including approximate wholesale and auction pricing. Here is what your car is really worth wholesale. Retail is usually marked up 3-5K above this. You may be able to get a few thousand more then most because of the color and condition but not much more.

Vehicle Identification
Search: Select Region: National
Year: 2005 Seasonal Adjustment: No
Make: MERCEDES-BENZ
Model: CL CLASS
Style: 2D COUPE CL65 AMG
Transactions
Date Auction Sale Type Price Odometer Cond Color Eng Trans In Sample
11/03/09 SKYLINE Regular $40,800 48,298 Avg Black 12C A Yes
10/29/09 NEVADA Lease $33,000 73,467 Avg BLACK 12 A Yes
09/23/09 W PALM Factory $39,500 23,334 Avg BLACK 12G A No
09/21/09 166 Regular $41,000 58,522 Avg Black 12C A Yes
09/11/09 MANHEIM Regular $42,000 46,557 Avg Black 12G A Yes
08/27/09 RIVRSIDE Regular $34,500 49,425 Avg Grey 12G A No
08/27/09 RIVRSIDE Lease $27,500 104,556 Below BLACK 12G A Yes


Second, we don't need the cheap sales talk about how great your car is compared to other CL65's. I agree it is good to let prospective buyers know your car is stock and well serviced, but it is not cool to discredit other peoples cars because of color and modifications. Maybe somewhere else, but not HERE! Believe me that all the AMG owners on this site take very very good care of there cars.

Good Luck.

Larry
Let me see if a 50 year old can try to expand on what Larry just said;

You sir are a DOUCHE!!!! You join this forum simply to try and pawn off your car (and there's nothing wrong with that), but you feel compelled to take shots at portions of this community before you have even established yourself here.....very unclassy!!!

Why don't you peddle your Vinegar enriched ride somewhere else???
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Old 01-24-2010, 12:34 PM
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Originally Posted by paul65k
Let me see if a 50 year old can try to expand on what Larry just said;

You sir are a DOUCHE!!!! You join this forum simply to try and pawn off your car (and there's nothing wrong with that), but you feel compelled to take shots at portions of this community before you have even established yourself here.....very unclassy!!!

Why don't you peddle your Vinegar enriched ride somewhere else???
LMFAO. Well said.

Larry out!
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Old 01-24-2010, 01:50 PM
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2006 s65. Ford Excursion 6.0. Pontiac GTO convertible. Porsche 944 Turbo SCCA car. Wife-E550 and 968
Originally Posted by EDDIES65AMG
WELL HERE IT IS I HAVE A 2005 CL65 "WHITE WITH BEIGE INTERIOR" IT HAS MERCEDES WARRANTY TILL 2012 WHICH I PAID ALMOST $5000 TO GET (WAS WELL WORTH IT) I THINK I HAVE ONE OF THE MOST PRISTINE AND CLEANEST CL65 OUT THERE. THE REASON WHY I SAY THAT IS BECAUSE ALL THESE GUYS RACE UPGRADE AND DO ALL THIS STUPID OTHER MODIFICATIONS TO THE CAR AND I THINK THAT IS WRONGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG.

A CL65 HAS TO BE STOCK AND BABIED. I HAVE ALL THE SERVICE RECORDS FROM DAY1 IT WAS NEVER INVOLVED IN ANY ACCIDENTS OR FENDER BENDERS IS PRISTINE CONDITION. THE BACK SEATS WERE NEVER EVEN SAT ON.

IT HAS 37,500 MILES AND I NEVER RACED IT IT DROVE IT HARD I HAVE ALL SERVICE RECORDS THAT WERE DONE AT RAY CATENA MERCEDES BENZ.

THIS IS A WHITE ONE NOT BLACK GRAY SILVER OR OTHER NASTY COLORS IT IS MY DREAM CAR AND NOW I HAVE TO SELL DUE TO FINANCIAL TIMES.

REMEMBER MY CAR HAS WARRANTY WITH MERCEDES TILL 2012 VERY IMPORTANT WITH THESE CARS.

IF INTERESTED EMAIL ME EDDIES65AMG@YAHOO.COM OR CALL 917-692-5649
PLEASE ONLY SERIOUS BUYERS NO DAY DREAMERS WILL TAKE REASONABLE OFFERS
OTHER GENTLEMAN SELLING HIS 06 CL65 WITH NO WARRANTY HERE FOR $75,000 AND MY CAR IS PRISTINE
Well, at least it's not black gray or silver or some other nasty color
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Old 01-24-2010, 07:19 PM
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Eddie your generalisation as to the age of members and what members choose to do to their own vehicles shows to me a particular lack of maturity and respect for fellow AMG CL owners. An AMG driver generally does not buy an AMG to keep her as a garage queen. You pay the extra for an AMG because you appreciate the engineering that goes into every AMG and the love of that hand built torque monster engine. I have a 2004 Black with charcoal CL 55 Kompressor. That was the colour combinbation that I wanted. Colour choice is personal and not for you to denigrate the choice we all make. In fact the colours you denigrate are the most popular in the MB line up.

As for modding I didn't think I would start modding but after reading of the mods by fellow AMG enthusiasts and their pleasure/satisfaction I have started on this path. Sprint booster has been installed and I couldn't be happier. Evosport shorty headers are the next mod. Waiting for my tech to let me know when he is ready to do the install. ECU and pulley will be next.

My MB service manager has told me, "drive the car it was built to be driven hard''. And I do drive her hard. Each 2 to 3 weeks my friends (all in Ferraris 355, 360 and 430 - 7 red cars in total) and I will go out on a 250 to 300 km run through early Sunday morning or late at night on some twisty and straight roads. They love the Black CL and have a great deal of respect for her because I have no problem keeping up with and at times passing them through the sweeping bends (hairpin corners they always get me). Having a drag race we all love it and the the 355 and 360 drives have surprised looks when they have the AMG beside them and they are not gaining any ground. 430 just pulls away. At night I am the point car as those xenons just light up the road.

I baby her by looking after her mechanically and detailing once a month. Stone chips are just normal from use. If I was to not use her I would be better off investing the money in property and driving a cheaper form of transport.

Why buy an AMG and not DRIVE the bloody car!!!
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Old 01-24-2010, 07:27 PM
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Nice car and all, but no reason to scream about it. Typing in all caps just shows a huge and glaring lack of professionalism.
Have a nice day! Or should I say: HAVE A NICE DAY!
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Old 01-26-2010, 12:26 PM
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Originally Posted by EDDIES65AMG
WELL HERE IT IS I HAVE A 2005 CL65 "WHITE WITH BEIGE INTERIOR" IT HAS MERCEDES WARRANTY TILL 2012 WHICH I PAID ALMOST $5000 TO GET (WAS WELL WORTH IT) I THINK I HAVE ONE OF THE MOST PRISTINE AND CLEANEST CL65 OUT THERE. THE REASON WHY I SAY THAT IS BECAUSE ALL THESE GUYS RACE UPGRADE AND DO ALL THIS STUPID OTHER MODIFICATIONS TO THE CAR AND I THINK THAT IS WRONGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG.

A CL65 HAS TO BE STOCK AND BABIED. I HAVE ALL THE SERVICE RECORDS FROM DAY1 IT WAS NEVER INVOLVED IN ANY ACCIDENTS OR FENDER BENDERS IS PRISTINE CONDITION. THE BACK SEATS WERE NEVER EVEN SAT ON.

IT HAS 37,500 MILES AND I NEVER RACED IT IT DROVE IT HARD I HAVE ALL SERVICE RECORDS THAT WERE DONE AT RAY CATENA MERCEDES BENZ.

THIS IS A WHITE ONE NOT BLACK GRAY SILVER OR OTHER NASTY COLORS IT IS MY DREAM CAR AND NOW I HAVE TO SELL DUE TO FINANCIAL TIMES.

REMEMBER MY CAR HAS WARRANTY WITH MERCEDES TILL 2012 VERY IMPORTANT WITH THESE CARS.

IF INTERESTED EMAIL ME EDDIES65AMG@YAHOO.COM OR CALL 917-692-5649
PLEASE ONLY SERIOUS BUYERS NO DAY DREAMERS WILL TAKE REASONABLE OFFERS
OTHER GENTLEMAN SELLING HIS 06 CL65 WITH NO WARRANTY HERE FOR $75,000 AND MY CAR IS PRISTINE
Maybe if you modified it properly you wouldn't be selling it.
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Old 01-26-2010, 03:23 PM
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Originally Posted by EDDIES65AMG
WELL SORRY BUT IM NOT 25 YEARS OLD LIKE MOST OF YOU ON THIS SITE AND I DID NOT PURCHASE MY CAR FOR 60K AND TRYING TO RESALE IT HERE. THIS IS A CLEAN NON MOLESTED WHITE CL65 WITH WARRANTY. NEVER KNEW ABOUT THE SITE AND HOW MANY DEDICATED ENTHUSIASTS ARE ON THE SITE.

PS: DOES ANYONE ALSO KNOW WHERE I CAN GET LORINSER SPOILERS AT A DISCOUNTED PRICE?

You want to talk about a bunch of 25 yr olds who bought their MB's used for 60k and then go on to ask where you can get those super grown up Lorinser spoilers, AT A DISCOUNT!? Get off my forum you CLOWN! Learn how to SPELL! Keep your white, unmolested CL, nobody wants it at $75k regardless of what you THINK it's worth. Keep dreaming, just don't do it here
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Old 01-27-2010, 05:04 AM
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S550 coupe


Have a nice day! Or should I say: HAVE A NICE DAY!
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Old 01-27-2010, 03:47 PM
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08 S65, 06 M3 CS(stick), 02 BMW X5 4.6iS, 07 R1 Raven, 08 F-450 4x4, 08 CooperS JCW
Originally Posted by EDDIES65AMG
WELL HERE IT IS I HAVE A 2005 CL65 "WHITE WITH BEIGE INTERIOR" IT HAS MERCEDES WARRANTY TILL 2012 WHICH I PAID ALMOST $5000 TO GET (WAS WELL WORTH IT) I THINK I HAVE ONE OF THE MOST PRISTINE AND CLEANEST CL65 OUT THERE. THE REASON WHY I SAY THAT IS BECAUSE ALL THESE GUYS RACE UPGRADE AND DO ALL THIS STUPID OTHER MODIFICATIONS TO THE CAR AND I THINK THAT IS WRONGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG.

A CL65 HAS TO BE STOCK AND BABIED. I HAVE ALL THE SERVICE RECORDS FROM DAY1 IT WAS NEVER INVOLVED IN ANY ACCIDENTS OR FENDER BENDERS IS PRISTINE CONDITION. THE BACK SEATS WERE NEVER EVEN SAT ON.

IT HAS 37,500 MILES AND I NEVER RACED IT IT DROVE IT HARD I HAVE ALL SERVICE RECORDS THAT WERE DONE AT RAY CATENA MERCEDES BENZ.

THIS IS A WHITE ONE NOT BLACK GRAY SILVER OR OTHER NASTY COLORS IT IS MY DREAM CAR AND NOW I HAVE TO SELL DUE TO FINANCIAL TIMES.

REMEMBER MY CAR HAS WARRANTY WITH MERCEDES TILL 2012 VERY IMPORTANT WITH THESE CARS.

IF INTERESTED EMAIL ME EDDIES65AMG@YAHOO.COM OR CALL 917-692-5649
PLEASE ONLY SERIOUS BUYERS NO DAY DREAMERS WILL TAKE REASONABLE OFFERS
OTHER GENTLEMAN SELLING HIS 06 CL65 WITH NO WARRANTY HERE FOR $75,000 AND MY CAR IS PRISTINE
black, gray or silver are "nasty colors"...

White looks good but beige on the inside is gonna scare people off. Anyway, good luck with sale, bet you'll miss the power and braking when it's gone...

-Rob
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Old 01-27-2010, 04:24 PM
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Originally Posted by transferred
black, gray or silver are "nasty colors"...

White looks good but beige on the inside is gonna scare people off. Anyway, good luck with sale, bet you'll miss the power and braking when it's gone...

-Rob
Nah...he never drove the car hard...how would he know what he was missing?

Also, in trying to decipher his poor grammar.... I noticed that he mentioned that he bought the MB warranty for nearly $5K....and then says that it was "well worth it". That kind of tells me that the car needed some serious warranty work done after the factory warranty expired. I wonder what it was...ABC perhaps...

Tom
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Old 01-27-2010, 04:29 PM
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I JUST SIGNED UP TO THIS FORUM TO SELL YOU MY CAR AND IT'S THE BEST BECAUSE IT'S MY CAR!!!! I'M GOING TO ALIENATE AS MANY OF YOU AS POSSIBLE IN ONE POST BECAUSE MY COLOR CHOICES ARE THE BESTEST!!! I SWEAR I NEVER HIT THE GAS PEDAL AT ALL IN 37,000 MILES AND I CLEANED THE CAR EVERY DAY WITH A TOOTHBRUSH!!!

Please dude. This is not the way. You bought the car CPO, you couldn't handle the payments, yadda yadda yadda. I see this in NJ all the time. Guys drive $180k cars to and from their studio apartments in Bloomfield.

Tom, did you notice that is car was "FOR SLAE"??? Totally sophisticated seller we have here.
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Old 01-27-2010, 05:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Cylinder Head
I JUST SIGNED UP TO THIS FORUM TO SELL YOU MY CAR AND IT'S THE BEST BECAUSE IT'S MY CAR!!!! I'M GOING TO ALIENATE AS MANY OF YOU AS POSSIBLE IN ONE POST BECAUSE MY COLOR CHOICES ARE THE BESTEST!!! I SWEAR I NEVER HIT THE GAS PEDAL AT ALL IN 37,000 MILES AND I CLEANED THE CAR EVERY DAY WITH A TOOTHBRUSH!!!

Please dude. This is not the way. You bought the car CPO, you couldn't handle the payments, yadda yadda yadda. I see this in NJ all the time. Guys drive $180k cars to and from their studio apartments in Bloomfield.

Tom, did you notice that is car was "FOR SLAE"??? Totally sophisticated seller we have here.

Yeah, I give a little chuckle every time I see the thread topic on the index..

Tom
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Old 01-29-2010, 05:46 AM
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LOL funny lot this...
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