MDMercedesGuy

https://mbworld.org/forums/5652887-post16.html

You'll find you were the first one to bring your BMW into this.

Germancar1

So now that someone who can read German has spoke you're back pedaling on the comparison test? Figures.

So unless MB wins every comparison test they're behind right? So how stupid that logic sounds?

If you think BMW still makes they ultimate driving machine then you're a fool man. You're going to be sore again when you discover another brand in a few years time.

What part of the 5 and 7 have been panned for the handling and being overweight don't you understand? A6 beats the 5 Series over and over. A8 and XJ beat the 7-Series over and over when it comes to being sporty. Clean Audi is ahead of BMW and the press has stated this over and over. This about nobody combining luxury and performance like BMW is bull****. LOOK at the tests BMW has dropped to Lexus, Audi, Mercedes and Jaguar lately. Are you kidding me? The Lexus IS350 F-Sport and GS350 F-Sport have beat the pants off BMW's 3 and 5-Series cars. Ditto for the Audi A6 and the A8 vs the 7-Series. You would have to blind now to see this.

So now who is drinking the BMW KOOLAID about being the ultimate driving machine?

MERCEDES DOESN'T MARKET THE E-CLASS AS A SPORT SEDAN for one. Again the more you post the more your confusion comes out. It was never marketed as back road machine. Never.

BMW was and they still aren't and they get beat by Audi and Jaguar. Again, what part of that doesn't make sense to you?

5 has been panned BY EVERYONE compared to the old car and the one before that which were real sports sedan, not the soft car you think is so sporty now.

You're the same one that again, touted the E did better in crash tests, now the 5 does better? You're the FOOL because you're lost in your own haze of confusion. WHAT CHANGED BETWEEN THIS YEAR AND LAST WHEN YOU SAID THE E WAS BETTER AT CRASH TESTS???? Naive, gullible and lost.


No my problem is not with the facts, but the brainless interpretation of them by you.

You see Chinese parts and you scream cheap, yet you don't know what the parts are. That just flies in the face of common sense, which apparently isn't so common here.

YOU DON'T EVEN KNOW WHAT THE PARTS ARE SO HOW CAN YOU SAY WHAT THEY DO TO THE CAR? YOU'RE THE ONE THAT HAS TALKED THEMSELVES INTO THINKING SOME BULL**** THAT ISN'T THERE.

WHAT ARE THE CHINESE PARTS IN THE E-CLASS? UNTIL YOU CAN ANSWER THAT YOU'RE TALKING OUT YOUR NECK.



M

K-A

Woof, you mad!

I already knew what that article said, and again, you can see the ratings system for yourself (but of course you refuse to believe many facts that support anything but M-B, sticking to the notion that "MB is better" because your emotions tell you that).

Yes, BMW does make the Ultimate Driving Machine if you ask me. They are out-luxuring M-B and are still far sportier. As an ex-MB driver, I think BMW's are the "ultimate driving machine" right now. Again, reviewers care ONLY about sportiness, however they also point out that the F10 feels far more expensive and substantial, and comfortable than the A6. "Driving Machine" to me means MORE than simply sportiness, which is my entire point. BMW is walking multiple lines right now: World class luxury, BMW-bred sportiness when equipped properly, and industry leading solidity/safety figures.

The E60 5 was a POS compared to the F10 in terms of luxury and refinement, yes it was sportier feeling, but everything else is substandard in comparison. So again, that's why I find the F10 to still be the "Ultimate Driving Machine".

BMW simply stepped it up in luxury, which pissed off single-minded magazine reviewers, BUT, it got them their first sales crown against Mercedes EXACTLY when the F chassis cars came out. That's WITH having a MUCH smaller fleet than M-B has, i.e M-B dilutes their brand with many more models but BMW still outsold them since the launch of the F10, quickly and swiftly. The F10 was the best business move BMW made for the 5 Series line, and the performance of it and regard from owners (forget magazine journo's in comparison) proves it.

Wow, you think the Chinese parts "aren't there" on the E? So that means you think 40% of the car isn't there!.... 'cause as you must now know, the E is made up of 40+% Chinese parts (or do I need to remind you again)!

Wolfman

Well, my read on the German Comparo is a bit different, and I am German btw.

In the actual comparison, the E400 won on the engine, body/chassis categories, the BMW on comfort and price. Interestingly, the price difference was less than 3k Euro.

Naturally both cars were rated well as neither of them are bad cars and to dispute that is plain silly.

In the end, choosing between Audi, BMW and MB comes down to preference and taste. In this segment, these cars are very competitive and neither have great weaknesses.

Germancar1

Like I said, someone else chimed in and now you're back pedaling.

You're a fool. You just ignored what I just said, just like you're accusing me of doing.

BMW doesn't make the ultimate driving machine anymore in every case, not even in most cases anymore. Oh so wait a min, the magazines are wrong now? They put Audi, Lexus and Jaguar over BMW for driving dynamics and now they're wrong.

BMW is on the ultimate driving machine because they've managed to beat Mercedes at handling?

CAN YOU SAY LAME?

You don't even know what you're talking about. Uh..in case you haven't noticed MB isn't the competition for BMW.

WOW talk about denial. You just glossed over Audi, Lexus, Jaguar and even Cadillac taking BMW's nuts off when it come sporty driving/dynamics.

Must be hard when you don't know what you're talking about.

Now you say "to you" they are the Ultimate driving machine? Just like to you a year ago Mercedes was the most solid safest car on the road with the best body structure and higher quality "steels" as you put it?

See what a fool you are for believing all of this? You live in you own little world.

Again, IF BMW IS THE ULTIMATE DRIVING MACHINE WHY ARE LEXUS, AUDI, JAGUAR AND EVEN CADILLAC BEATING THEM IN DYNAMICS/HANDLING.

When a BMW loving magazines put the likes of Lexus, Audi, and Cadillac over BMW there is a problem yet to you they still are the ultimate driving machine right?

DENIAL.

Again, lets see if you can get this. I don't dispute that part content, I'm simply asking what parts the Chinese ones? Do you know? Since you don't how do you know what they're doing to the car?

M

Germancar1

Biggest crock I've yet read. They stepped up luxury, but they lost dynamics and became overweight at the same time.

These same single minded reviewers are the ones that worshiped BMW for years and years. Now all of sudden they're wrong? Cry me a river.

WTF does sales have to do with this? Better sales doesn't always = better car.

MB dilutes the brand with more models? Really.

BMW has just as many if now more models than Mercedes does now. Where have you been? 1,3,4,5,6,7, Z4, X1, X3, X5,X6 Soon to come 2 Series, X4 and the i3 and the i8.

The only thing Mercedes has that BMW has no answer for is the GL, G and CL and maybe the SL all low volume prestige making big buck cars.


You do realize that globally BMW outsold Mercedes starting in 2005 right? Long before the current 5-Series came out?

OMG man you don't know **** do you?


M

K-A

That's what I understood (from other sites that had members translate it) as well. However they also gave points to the 5er for handling and design over the E.

Yes, it does come down to preference. But simply saying that wouldn't get 100+ post threads it seems.

OMG, you've really gone off the deep end. Resorting to furious tirades and constant personal attacks because of car discussion isn't a good look. If you don't like what I have to say, then ignore it, clearly it means too much to you as it's driving you absolutely bonkers. I don't know why people hold my words with so much weight, everything I say gets picked apart, I get followed and dissected through various forums, etc. What's the big deal? I'm just one guy with a strong opinion that can back up my opinions (clearly) very well.

It doesn't matter where the W212's Chinese content is. Fact is is has about double the Chinese part content than the 5 Series does, and it's comprised of close to HALF Chinese parts, and that's a cost saving move by M-B and based on my views of how the W212 compares to the F10, I wouldn't be the least bit shocked if it affects the holistic build and feel of the car. It's cost cutting, plain and simple. I'll take the one with 75% German part content (5er), thanks.

You can go pay premium dollars for a car with more Chinese part content then any of its competitors, but I'll pass. Why you can't grasp that and keep trying to apologize for M-B (again) in using industry leading Chinese parts on the E Class is ridiculous. CLEARLY it's a cost-cutting move by M-B as the SL and presumedly other more expensive models have less Chinese part content.

Yes, M-B has more models than BMW on the floors, look it up, and they still sell less (and discount more, in the States). BMW started outselling M-B for the first time *in the States* when the F10 came out.

Where did I say "they're wrong"? I don't buy cars based on mag reviewers. I bought M-B's and they're always dead last. However now BMW took over M-B's game in the 5/E segment AND are still vastly sportier, i.e "Ultimate Driving Machine". BMW's weren't worth looking at to me when they were making rawer cars in the luxury segment, now I think the addition of luxury has made them more dynamic than they were before, to my tastes.

Germancar1

Now you cry foul because you're bs has been debunked right? You actually think think what you says is held in such high regard? Ever thought that people mind find what you say to be so stupid that they can't help but respond to it in disbelief. They say the person with the problem is the absolute last to know.

You are loathed here. You got banned on GCF yet everyone else has the problem right? Really does that make sense to you?

It DOES MATTER what the Chinese content is if you trying to say that such content is the problem with the E-Class. That is just what should be common sense. I guess it isn't.

Again, what are the Chinese parts? How are they affecting the E-Class? What effect do they have on how the car operates, drives and is built?

You can't answer of that because you don't know the first thing about which parts are from where!

MB has more models on the floors? Really? Look what up? Can you not read what I just posted?

The 5-Series is the reason why BMW outsold Mercedes in the U.S? Really?

Lets see:

5-Series:

2011 - 51,491
2012 - 56,798

E-Class:

2011 - 62,736
2012 - 65,171


WRONG AGAIN!


http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2011/01...s-figures.html

http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2011/01...s-figures.html


Now unless you have the breakout of how many E-Classes are convertibles and coupes and wagons then you don't know what you're talking about. AGAIN.



Once again you back away from your Ultimate Driving Machine bs with "my taste" because clearly they aren't that anymore based on their past. You make up whatever you need to tell yourself and you think an Audi or Lexus isn't luxurious you're clueless again.


You know what isn't a good look? Being universally loathed.


M

K-A

5 Series is killing the E Class in WORLDWIDE sales, for the first time ever, since the F10 came out.

You're quoting U.S figures which have E350's leasing for as cheap as 328i's in many cases and have the benefit of E Coupes/Verts/Wagons and AMG Sedan/Wagons being calculated into it over the F10 Sedan on its own along with the meaningless 4 or so GT's that sell every year. The 5 Sedan even having less incentives to move in the States probably outsells the E Sedan still.

You can defend cost-cutting Chinese part-content all you want, but I don't want my Benz with 40+% Chinese parts, it might feel and act like a W212.

Germancar1

See how you keep shifting around you argument? You just stated in the U.S. then you change it to world wide. Do you think BMW gets sticker price for their cars? BMW has been piling it on to keep their crown in the U.S. or have you missed that too? Did you now see where they were registering used cars as sales last year to get the sales crown in the US?

Probably my ****. Prove it. You can't. Prove that the 5 Sedan outsells the E-Class sedan. PROVE IT.

Who is defending it? I'm asking you to state what the parts are and what they're doing to the E-Class? You're too limited to give an answer.

M

K-A

The 5 is crushing the entire E line (Coupe/Vert included) worldwide. In the States M-B lets E350's go for 15-20+% discounts very regularly, $60K cars leasing in the $400's (I've even seen guys get them in the $300's in rare, late-year cases). You'll never see a 535i go for discounts near that, never. I just got an ad for a C250 for $199 a month, you'll never see a 328i go for that. M-B is resorting to price slashing that I've never seen, especially from a "Premium Manufacturer" to win back the "sales crown".

Assuming that the E Sedan outsells the 5 Sedan in the States, aside from the help from said record-breaking discounts to let them go for, you're assuming only about 800 or so E Coupe/Verts are sold a month. I highly doubt that.

Yes, you are apologizing for M-B using extremely high Chinese parts on their E Class. You should shame them for comprising almost half of their bread-and-butter E Class with cheaper Chinese parts.

Germancar1

Ok so you're going to repeat the same thing over and over as to mean what?

Again do you think the 5-Series doesn't have incentives? Especially the 4-cylinder 528i? Man you can be this lost.

You keep thinking that your local ads represent the entire country when the dealer here has 8K off stickers on most left over 2013 BMWs. Now you won't see a 328i go for $199 a month, that is what the 320i is for! They've giving 20K off 2013 M5 and M6 models. BMW DISCOUNTS THEIR CARS JUST LIKE MERCEDES DOES, THEY ARE NO DIFFERENT.

Again what does any of this have to do with you not knowing which models outsell the other?

Again you can't prove what the E-Class sales mix and the FACTS say that the E outsells the 5-Series. 800 coupes/convertibles a month could, we don't know. Quit trying to put over your assumptions as facts.

Are you not able to read or are you retarded? Seriously. I'm asking.

I just said I'm asking what the parts are? Who is apologizing for them? You don't know what the parts are and yet you keep harping about them. That is just dumb as hell.

What are the parts??


M

K-A

Lol, $8K off? That's a terrible discount on a W212. $10-$16K off are regularly attainable for E350's. You tend to speak in absolutes, which is a flawed way of arguing, which is why you get so frustrated, flustered and start resorting to personal attacks (a clear sign of a lost argument). I never said 5 Series' don't get incentivized, I said not NEARLY as much as a W212, and that's a fact. I have shopped these cars 3 times now, have attained deals on both of them, and can say first hand the deal I got on my last W212 was better than on my F10 and I'm "known" to have gotten one of the best deals anyone has ever gotten on an F10.

Again, more apologizing for record cost-saving Chinese parts in this Luxury segment. Be my guest, go buy your German marketed Mercedes-Benz with 40% Chinese parts, soon to be built in America (and maybe Mexico?). With guys like you on board, why wouldn't M-B resort to excessive Chinese part usage and non-German assembled vehicles.

Germancar1

You tend to think that because you're dealer is doing something that every dealer in the nation is doing the same thing.

The bottom like is that BMW runs specials and cuts prices just as much as Mercedes does. The both slash prices in an attempt be the best selling luxury brand in the U.S. but BMW has stooped lower in recent years by registering cars that were already sold. Twice.

Fact is that you can't think for yourself. Your history proves it and again, you can't tell me what the Chinese parts are in the E-Class so again how do you know what they're doing to mess up the car itself? You don't!

Continue to cry foul when all that is being questioned here is common sense which you lack. Nothing personal just a clear observation of someone who can't comprehend simple things like a question.

You lose every argument you enter because you always have to back pedal and when you do it is usually with "well I don't like it" or "this is the way I feel".


You only cry foul when you've know your bull**** has been debunked and then you start whining about an observation made about your comprehension.


M

K-A

Again, more absolutes. M-B slashes prices much MORE. And people from all over the country have gotten 15-20+% discounts off of E350's. Sorry to burst your "MB perfection" bubble but yes, the cars get fire sale'd very regularly.

Sure, I know exactly how much Chinese part usage is used in the E Class. And the car is as good as the sum of its parts. The entire interior has plastics so cheap feeling you'd think M-B cost cut the hell out of it.... Oh, it did.

Please, this isn't about the cars to you, as you can't even understand all the facts I point out to you. This is ALL personal. You hate that I can express my "voice" and back it up, therefore you disregard facts and valid arguments and resort to personal attacks and tirades. For someone who likes to call for censorship so much, you've broken like every TOU with all the insults and obscenities you fling at another member. These are only cars, and my argument is better than yours, hence how I don't resort to personal berating as you have.

Germancar1

Again, BMW discounts cars just as much. What part of stickers all over their cars don't you understand? They introduced the 320i to get down to an even lower lease payment for the 3-Series, their best seller.

You act like BMW is some type of brand that is getting stick price for their cars, they are NOT.

Again you don't know what parts are that are Chinese in the E-Class, so again talking out the side of your neck.

Aww, whaha...cry me a river.

You don't present any facts. All you do is present bull****, over and over again. The only FACT you have presented here is that the E-Class contains 40% Chinese parts.

That is the only fact you presented.

No the board hates your dimwitted "oh I read this now I'm a believer" stance. Same thing that got you banned on GCF.

Thing is you're too something to even realize what a fool you're making out of yourself here.

You honestly think that 2 different communities on 2 different boards have a problem when the common factor is you? Talk about being blissfully ignorant.

You don't have an argument, never did. You can't even answer a simple question that I asked you months ago.

What parts of the E-Class are Chinese and how do they affect the E-Class?


Until you answer that question you're just a talking head.


I haven't called for censorship anywhere. You were banned without any input from me.

M

K-A

Omg with your rants man! LOL. You don't know of what you speak here. The worst W212 discount will usually be better than the best F10 discount. Sorry if the truth "hurts".

If you had knowledge on the subject you wouldn't regurgitate the same insults over and over again. You've lost the argument when you resorted to that and can't get around yourself to realize it.

Yeah, keep defending the 40+% Chinese-part comprised E Class. The fact that the car is so substandard and made up of segment leading cheap Chinese materials surely has nothing to do with why it's so lacking to the competition.. lol.

Germancar1

Again, cry me a river.

You don't even realize it, but you've never had an argument to begin with. WTF cares about sales? They don't automatically = a better car. You brought that into this, not me.

Then you switched from the U.S. to worldwide and then back again because you couldn't provide the sales figures on which models sell what. Typical.

Only to keep talking about Chinese made parts in an E-Class when you're too limited to even know what they are.

Sounds like someone who won an argument in a room by themselves.

M

Germancar1

Let me know when you can come up with some facts to support any of your ridiculous views!

Like what are the Chinese parts in the E-Class?

What are the sales for the E-Class Coupe and Convertible vs the sedan?

Let me know when you get a clue here?

M

K-A

Censor! Censor! Insult! Insult! Project insecurities onto others!

You crack me up my man. This is entertaining as hell for me to partake in. I'll give you that

Chinese parts are all over the E Class. Interior materials, various components. 40% of the entire car is Chinese material.

Germancar1

Clearly the plot has been lost. Can't answer common sense questions so you shift to nothing. Typical.

M

K-A

Awe. "Cry me a river".

interiormagic

Can somebody please ban this idiot? K-A, please come up with facts or go away, maybe if we close our eyes he will go away. I did a search and found all his rant is about benz bashing.

K-A

Everything I say here is backed with facts or extremely detailed personal verified breakdowns. That's why you guys obsessively loathe hearing it so much. Don't like it? Quit baiting it or else prepare to hear it.

interiormagic

Chinese part or not, the E-class is far superior and elegant than your 5 series. Did you see what that guy did to the M6? a car BMW claimed is better than your 5 series, lol.