Discussion of pros and cons of HPS compressor
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 3,704
Likes: 28
From: 20854
new balance
What were the rear-wheel numbers on the mustang dyno before you converted them, I believe the mustang dyno to be a similar "drumstlye dynomometer" that measures horsepower at the rearwheel.
Super Member
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 845
Likes: 0
From: West Covina, CA
S60R, ML320, W211/E350
If I want to add an intercooler later, what kind of power can i expect from the HPS kit?
Are we talking about Kleeman level? Also, do you offer upgraded pulleys for increase psi, since I would really like to add an intercooler later.
Are we talking about Kleeman level? Also, do you offer upgraded pulleys for increase psi, since I would really like to add an intercooler later.
Out Of Control!!
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 20,081
Likes: 0
From: Chicago
Volvo V90 CC
WOW, this has been an interesting match to watch.
It is obvious that HPS and Timster can't or won't disclosure details of their issue, so why keep asking guys? Drop it, is Timster the only one problem you guys have heard of? If so, then that's good one among however many they've done.
I don't have any money to do a s/c right now, but if I did, I'd take a very close look at this system, I know many many cars that use s/c's with out intercooler or other fuel injector mods and they all run with out a problem, so not having an intercooler is not a big issue on my book. I guess the only way to find out about the intercooler would be a side to side comparison of kleeman and hps exhaust temps (exhaust from the supercharger, not from the engine).
my 2 cents
It is obvious that HPS and Timster can't or won't disclosure details of their issue, so why keep asking guys? Drop it, is Timster the only one problem you guys have heard of? If so, then that's good one among however many they've done.
I don't have any money to do a s/c right now, but if I did, I'd take a very close look at this system, I know many many cars that use s/c's with out intercooler or other fuel injector mods and they all run with out a problem, so not having an intercooler is not a big issue on my book. I guess the only way to find out about the intercooler would be a side to side comparison of kleeman and hps exhaust temps (exhaust from the supercharger, not from the engine).
my 2 cents
Out Of Control!!
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 35,855
Likes: 3
From: Southern CA
Originally posted by HPS
If we increased the boost to 5 +, horsepower increase can be anywhere from 10 to 25. Really depends on your make, model, year, and other modifications you have.
(Yes, pulley upgrade will be available.)
I’m wary of Kleemanns performance numbers for one reason. Their website states stock horsepower for the E55 at 367. Compared to 349 from Mercedes Benz. How is this possible? If stock numbers are miss quote, what about performance numbers?
I started a new pro's and con's of hps supercharger system thread
If we increased the boost to 5 +, horsepower increase can be anywhere from 10 to 25. Really depends on your make, model, year, and other modifications you have.
(Yes, pulley upgrade will be available.)
I’m wary of Kleemanns performance numbers for one reason. Their website states stock horsepower for the E55 at 367. Compared to 349 from Mercedes Benz. How is this possible? If stock numbers are miss quote, what about performance numbers?
I started a new pro's and con's of hps supercharger system thread
You also mention raising the boost on a SC that would destroy a car without an intercooler? Sure you can run lean, and have detonation, but is that really how to make power? What are your a/f ratios? Also, it used to say on your website that raising the boost could result in less power, and is not the way to make more power. Also that it would void your HPS warranty. Why offer something that you don't believe in?
I have merged your new threads with this post. You can't simply start a new thread, with the EXACT same post, every time you don't like how the thread is going. You are allowed to make your commercial posts here because you are addressing questions that people bring up. Starting a new thread with the intentions to simply get people to contact you about your product is soliciting sales, and is reserved for the patrons who sponsor the board.
Thanks,
Ben
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 1,038
Likes: 1
C32 AMG
Originally posted by HPS
We running low boost, to protect the drive train and not heating the air too extreme, intercooler in not needed. Example: We touched the ducting on our S/C E430 after an extreme test run and felt no heat what so ever.
At first we thought intercooling was the way to go. However Jerry Magnuson, owner of Magnuson Products, informed our engineers the reasons above why its not suggested for these models.
We running low boost, to protect the drive train and not heating the air too extreme, intercooler in not needed. Example: We touched the ducting on our S/C E430 after an extreme test run and felt no heat what so ever.
At first we thought intercooling was the way to go. However Jerry Magnuson, owner of Magnuson Products, informed our engineers the reasons above why its not suggested for these models.
But if this is how you guys test and tune your cars by touching with your hands to see if it is OK? Do you know what the charge temperatures are on your system? Do you know how much timing advance the system runs under boost? Under part throttle?
The graph you show on your website is made on graphics programm. How about a REAL DYNO graph? How about a real Air to Fuel Graph?
If you have engineers working on your system they should know all of these parameters.
P.S. We give our Kleemann customers before and after HP/TQ along with A/F ratios.
Former Vendor of MBWorld
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 807
Likes: 0
From: Colorado
Originally posted by HPS
Good afternoon, if its valid question then myself sales / marketing will answer. If it’s a negative or dead horse issue, then I let our 19-year-old guy answer.
The kompressor raises the temperature under heavy boost up to 15 degrees Fah. HPS system is designed to discharged cool air to the intake with max boost and high airflow.
HPS system requires no timing to the ignition timing system. We use a special developed fuel management system to allow maximum fuel efficiently horsepower and low emissions,
HPS have developed unique software to model and graph performance perimeters. Resulting in a graphic document.
Good afternoon, if its valid question then myself sales / marketing will answer. If it’s a negative or dead horse issue, then I let our 19-year-old guy answer.
The kompressor raises the temperature under heavy boost up to 15 degrees Fah. HPS system is designed to discharged cool air to the intake with max boost and high airflow.
HPS system requires no timing to the ignition timing system. We use a special developed fuel management system to allow maximum fuel efficiently horsepower and low emissions,
HPS have developed unique software to model and graph performance perimeters. Resulting in a graphic document.
Former Vendor of MBWorld
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 807
Likes: 0
From: Colorado
Originally posted by HPS
Question,
Who makes Kleemann's supercharger? Do you require a clutch on kompressor on low rph? What type of intercooler? Air? Liquid?
How much back pressure do you experiance?
Question,
Who makes Kleemann's supercharger? Do you require a clutch on kompressor on low rph? What type of intercooler? Air? Liquid?
How much back pressure do you experiance?
MB World Stories
The Best of Mercedes & AMG
6 Mercedes Models That Did NOT Age Well (But Are Somehow Still Cool)
Verdad Gallardo
Manual Mercedes? 6 Times Sindelfingen Let Drivers Have All The Fun
Verdad Gallardo
Mercedes SLR McLaren 722 S Is Extremely Rare Example Modified by McLaren
Verdad Gallardo
8 Classic Boxy Mercedes Designs That Have Aged Like Fine Wine
Verdad Gallardo
Flawlessly Restored Mercedes 190E Evo II Heads to Auction
Verdad Gallardo
Electric Mercedes C-Class Unveiled: 11 Things You Need to Know
Verdad Gallardo
Mercedes EQS Gets A Major Update: Everything You Need to Know
Verdad Gallardo
5 Underrated Mercedes-Benz Models That Don't Get the Love They Deserve
Verdad Gallardo
Mercedes 300D Has Pushed Well Past 1 Million Miles and It Ain't Stopping
Verdad Gallardo
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 5,660
Likes: 2
From: Charlotte, NC
2000 CLK430
Originally posted by HPS
One more question . . . Does it require a clutch mechanism to allow compressor disengagement during low boost operation?
One more question . . . Does it require a clutch mechanism to allow compressor disengagement during low boost operation?
:p
Former Vendor of MBWorld
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 807
Likes: 0
From: Colorado
Originally posted by HPS
Common practice using intercooling dictates backpressure does exist, no matter how efficient you design your still restricting compress discharge air. Industry standard dictates 15 – 20 percent kompressor performance when using an intercooling system. That’s one more system that can cause failure mode. Don’t forget the extra 2k – 3k to charge the customer for this additional piece of hardware.
Common practice using intercooling dictates backpressure does exist, no matter how efficient you design your still restricting compress discharge air. Industry standard dictates 15 – 20 percent kompressor performance when using an intercooling system. That’s one more system that can cause failure mode. Don’t forget the extra 2k – 3k to charge the customer for this additional piece of hardware.
HPS is an alternative to KLEEMANN. If you want the best, be prepared to pay a premium over what is simply mediocre. Both systems will give you more power, it just depends on what you want to get for your money.
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,626
Likes: 0
From: Texas
Thanks for clearing that up for me. Is all of MBWorld run by evosport or just the Performance Upgrades & Tuning forum?
HPS, Why do you not advertise on MBWorld, or try to work a deal with Evosport to sell your blowers. Why would evosport limit theselves to only Kleeman. I think that is just bad for business. The all successful parts suppliers have a second source on parts. Also, why not sell both? HPS is cheaper and offers an alternative to more thrify spenders, people who want a blower for bragging rights, or those who want one one that produces less boost therefore putting less strain on the motor. That may be a larger segment of the market than people who buy Kleeman blowers. Why choose to miss out on potential sales? Kleeman would be crazy to react negatively to this kind of deal. Evosport has to be the largest installer of Kleeman blowers, they surely would not want to loose that business.
HPS, Why do you not advertise on MBWorld, or try to work a deal with Evosport to sell your blowers. Why would evosport limit theselves to only Kleeman. I think that is just bad for business. The all successful parts suppliers have a second source on parts. Also, why not sell both? HPS is cheaper and offers an alternative to more thrify spenders, people who want a blower for bragging rights, or those who want one one that produces less boost therefore putting less strain on the motor. That may be a larger segment of the market than people who buy Kleeman blowers. Why choose to miss out on potential sales? Kleeman would be crazy to react negatively to this kind of deal. Evosport has to be the largest installer of Kleeman blowers, they surely would not want to loose that business.
Last edited by PhucNguyen57; Dec 12, 2002 at 08:42 PM.
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 6,261
Likes: 13
From: Afghanistan / South Florida / Camp Lejeune, NC
2008 BMW M6, 2008 Ducati 1098, 2008 Ducati Monster S2R1000, 1971 Ducati Scrambler
Originally posted by PhucNguyen57
Why do you get attacked if you talk bad about evosport, but everyone is always down on HPS?
Why do you get attacked if you talk bad about evosport, but everyone is always down on HPS?
Last edited by Accord; Dec 12, 2002 at 08:56 PM.
Out Of Control!!
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 35,855
Likes: 3
From: Southern CA
Originally posted by PhucNguyen57
Thanks for clearing that up for me. Is all of MBWorld run by evosport or just the Performance Upgrades & Tuning forum?
HPS, Why do you not advertise on MBWorld, or try to work a deal with Evosport to sell your blowers. Why would evosport limit theselves to only Kleeman. I think that is just bad for business. The all successful parts suppliers have a second source on parts. Also, why not sell both? HPS is cheaper and offers an alternative to more thrify spenders, people who want a blower for bragging rights, or those who want one one that produces less boost therefore putting less strain on the motor. That may be a larger segment of the market than people who buy Kleeman blowers. Why choose to miss out on potential sales? Kleeman would be crazy to react negatively to this kind of deal. Evosport has to be the largest installer of Kleeman blowers, they surely would not want to loose that business.
Thanks for clearing that up for me. Is all of MBWorld run by evosport or just the Performance Upgrades & Tuning forum?
HPS, Why do you not advertise on MBWorld, or try to work a deal with Evosport to sell your blowers. Why would evosport limit theselves to only Kleeman. I think that is just bad for business. The all successful parts suppliers have a second source on parts. Also, why not sell both? HPS is cheaper and offers an alternative to more thrify spenders, people who want a blower for bragging rights, or those who want one one that produces less boost therefore putting less strain on the motor. That may be a larger segment of the market than people who buy Kleeman blowers. Why choose to miss out on potential sales? Kleeman would be crazy to react negatively to this kind of deal. Evosport has to be the largest installer of Kleeman blowers, they surely would not want to loose that business.
We at evosport will not sell the HPS supercharger because it does not represent what we believe to be a reliable option. We will not put our name and reputation behind any products that we would not feel comfortable installing on our own cars. One thing I've learned from working here is when Vadim says "no" he means it! If you do a search on the recent posts from Vadim regarding this, you can see the many points about the system that we would not be comfortable selling.
Last edited by Mach430; Dec 12, 2002 at 09:13 PM.
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 6,261
Likes: 13
From: Afghanistan / South Florida / Camp Lejeune, NC
2008 BMW M6, 2008 Ducati 1098, 2008 Ducati Monster S2R1000, 1971 Ducati Scrambler
Originally posted by HPS
This is a forum offered by EvoSport a Kleemann dealers of their supercharger system. www.mbworld.org was to create interest and sales for their product. HPS is Kleemanns competitor and they feel threaten by us. So members acted in a childish behavior.
This is a forum offered by EvoSport a Kleemann dealers of their supercharger system. www.mbworld.org was to create interest and sales for their product. HPS is Kleemanns competitor and they feel threaten by us. So members acted in a childish behavior.
So let me get this straight, Kleemann feels threatened by HPS, so the members of MBWorld have childish behavior? That makes no sense.
Out Of Control!!
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 35,855
Likes: 3
From: Southern CA
Originally posted by HPS
This is a forum offered by EvoSport a Kleemann dealers of their supercharger system. www.mbworld.org was to create interest and sales for their product. HPS is Kleemanns competitor and they feel threaten by us. So members acted in a childish behavior.
What's really sad here, is countless members have made pointless statements without researching or knowing anything about our product. It's kind of funny!
The way I've solved this is simple. A valid question will be answered by myself sales and marketing. A dead horse or invalid will be forward to our 19-year-old web designer.
This is a forum offered by EvoSport a Kleemann dealers of their supercharger system. www.mbworld.org was to create interest and sales for their product. HPS is Kleemanns competitor and they feel threaten by us. So members acted in a childish behavior.
What's really sad here, is countless members have made pointless statements without researching or knowing anything about our product. It's kind of funny!
The way I've solved this is simple. A valid question will be answered by myself sales and marketing. A dead horse or invalid will be forward to our 19-year-old web designer.
How many examples of smokescreens and displacement are you going to reply with? As I answered in another post, if you answer the users questions, they will leave you alone. You could blow up an engine, and admit it, and they would eventually leave you alone. But constantly disguising replies and avoiding the questions asked, only makes them more curious. From a user's perspective, why not answer their questions?
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,626
Likes: 0
From: Texas
Originally posted by Mach430
The Performance forum is sponsored by evosport, but is open for all to post.
We at evosport will not sell the HPS supercharger because it does not represent what we believe to be a reliable option. We will not put our name and reputation behind any products that we would not feel comfortable installing on our own cars. One thing I've learned from working here is when Vadim says "no" he means it! If you do a search on the recent posts from Vadim regarding this, you can see the many points about the system that we would not be comfortable selling.
The Performance forum is sponsored by evosport, but is open for all to post.
We at evosport will not sell the HPS supercharger because it does not represent what we believe to be a reliable option. We will not put our name and reputation behind any products that we would not feel comfortable installing on our own cars. One thing I've learned from working here is when Vadim says "no" he means it! If you do a search on the recent posts from Vadim regarding this, you can see the many points about the system that we would not be comfortable selling.
Out Of Control!!
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 35,855
Likes: 3
From: Southern CA
Kleemann will soon be offering a warranty that will have a cap of $30,000, which is enough to replace an engine. Every other aftermarket warranty I have come across so far has been capped at $8,000; enough to replace the the product only. More will be posted by Kleemann as soon as everything is complete.
Almost a Member!
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 67
Likes: 0
From: so cali
1999 c43 w/lots of mods
i doubt kleemann feels any competive pressure from hps...espically how they have handled this situation...i doubt anyone on this forum would buy anything from hps, they just lack....r&d for a quality product, a professional approach to their business, and the pride of standing up to their work, something you need to be successful in business. i have taken very few business classes, and know very little about how the business world works....but i could run your company with my eyes closed better than you seen to be doing...( ill send you my resume if you like
)
Heres what your slogan should be...
"we are cheaper than kleemann in every way"
) Heres what your slogan should be...
"we are cheaper than kleemann in every way"
Senior Member
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 488
Likes: 0
From: Club202.com
1998 C43
Ben:
If I were to purchase a unit before the warranty is offered, would you extent that warranty to me? I'm just curious. I am thinking about doing a s/c, but will wait until the warranty is offered. Will there be an extra premium that I will have to pay?
Ok, I'm off to work and save bux.
Thanks
DLS
If I were to purchase a unit before the warranty is offered, would you extent that warranty to me? I'm just curious. I am thinking about doing a s/c, but will wait until the warranty is offered. Will there be an extra premium that I will have to pay?
Ok, I'm off to work and save bux.
Thanks
DLS
Out Of Control!!
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 35,855
Likes: 3
From: Southern CA
The warranty will be purchasable through an aftermarket warranty company (to be disclosed later). New customers will have the option of paying a premium in addition to the SC fee, or going without it. Once the warranty is set up, existing users should be able to contact the same warranty company and purchase it as well. Everything will be cleared up and explained by Kleemann once it is available.
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 1,038
Likes: 1
C32 AMG
Oh my God! This is even worse than I thought. HPS - whatever your name is - you better quit now. Lets take apart your statement.
First of all Eaton is not a compressor, it is a positive displacement pump. Compression takes part in intake manifold, this is why it is very inefficeint. Even with 4 lbs. of boost at 60% efficiency you are going to add 60-70 degrees to the ambient temperature. This data comes doing develepment work on our dyno on Eaton SC on Jackson Racing Civic kit and Pontiac GTP. Sorry but this is a fact.
By the way 4 lbs. is hardly "heavy boost".
Hugh? This sounds like a typical marketing statement. The air is not cool - you are now pushing 150F + air into a manifold that is not designed to accept boost.
.
My friend what are talking about? DO you even know what ignition advance is? How do you tune your cars? Drive them hard until they detonate to death and then back off?
You do not model HP/TQ - you measure it. This is what dyno is for.
When you buy gasoline - there is a gallon meter on the pump, when you buy produce there is a scale at the checkout counter.
When a customer spend $10K he has every right to know what he is getting.
So how about FREE DYNO offer? Or should we dyno Timsters CLK55? He did offer.
The kompressor raises the temperature under heavy boost up to 15 degrees Fah.
By the way 4 lbs. is hardly "heavy boost".
HPS system is designed to discharged cool air to the intake with max boost and high airflow.
HPS system requires no timing to the ignition timing system. We use a special developed fuel management system to allow maximum fuel efficiently horsepower and low emissions.
My friend what are talking about? DO you even know what ignition advance is? How do you tune your cars? Drive them hard until they detonate to death and then back off?
HPS have developed unique software to model and graph performance perimeters. Resulting in a graphic document.
When you buy gasoline - there is a gallon meter on the pump, when you buy produce there is a scale at the checkout counter.
When a customer spend $10K he has every right to know what he is getting.
So how about FREE DYNO offer? Or should we dyno Timsters CLK55? He did offer.
Last edited by vadim@evosport; Dec 13, 2002 at 12:58 PM.
