Discussion of pros and cons of Kleemann compressor
12-13-2002, 06:10 PM
#28
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If you use a 21% drivetrain loss, as most do, you get 536 crank hp. The car also had 19" wheels, which are harder to spin, and thus power at the wheels is reduced. Lastly, 560hp is at higher octane gas (Europe) than the 91 we are forced to use here.
As Vadim stated above, "crank" horsepower is useless. You will always lose power before it reaches the rear wheels. The only numbers that matter are what your car puts out at the wheels. Automobile companies post hp/torque figures from the crank because it is larger, and makes their cars look more powerful. If MB all of a sudden posted wheel hp instead, most people wouldn't understand, and would think that they could get more power from a stock Honda... Thus, tuners must post crank numbers, in order to show gains over automobile manufacturer's claims. Would a Kleemann supercharger look as impressive if they posted 424hp vs 347 stock? Unfortunately, many people would see it that way.
At the end of the day, it's your rear wheels that are accelerating the car, and the only significant power rating is how much power is at the wheels. This is why we do a before and after dyno of the cars we work on in the shop. The Kleemann supercharger nets gains of about 50% over stock dyno figures.
James, your car will put out around 280 at the wheels, so you should expect final numbers to be around 425 at the wheels.
Thanks!
Ben
As Vadim stated above, "crank" horsepower is useless. You will always lose power before it reaches the rear wheels. The only numbers that matter are what your car puts out at the wheels. Automobile companies post hp/torque figures from the crank because it is larger, and makes their cars look more powerful. If MB all of a sudden posted wheel hp instead, most people wouldn't understand, and would think that they could get more power from a stock Honda... Thus, tuners must post crank numbers, in order to show gains over automobile manufacturer's claims. Would a Kleemann supercharger look as impressive if they posted 424hp vs 347 stock? Unfortunately, many people would see it that way.
At the end of the day, it's your rear wheels that are accelerating the car, and the only significant power rating is how much power is at the wheels. This is why we do a before and after dyno of the cars we work on in the shop. The Kleemann supercharger nets gains of about 50% over stock dyno figures.
James, your car will put out around 280 at the wheels, so you should expect final numbers to be around 425 at the wheels.
Thanks!
Ben
12-13-2002, 10:23 PM
#30
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Originally posted by CoryU
Timster-
The fuel curve on our kompressor engines is handled via a mechanical linear increase in fuel pressure based on boost pressure. Everything is set at the time of installation, and double checked after 1500 miles of operation. No need for future adjustment.
Our kompressor is an integrated unit, meaning the komrpessor, intercooler and mainifold are one unit. The factory manifold is removed and put in a box to collect dust. Our manifold uses equal length runners, and the discharge passes over the intercooler cores immediatly after it is discharged, leaving little room for pressure drops and additional heat build-up. The biggest pressure drop exsists in the air box.
The spark plugs we use are one step "colder" than the factory units.
Our kompressor system does not include a boost guage, however, you are welcome to have one installed if you would like.
We let our dealer service our demo vehicles according to the FSS, and we also add an oil change every 5000 miles. 10,000 miles between oil changes, supercharged or not, is just too long in my opinion. The only special service required is a complete check-up of the kompressor system after 1500 miles of operation. At that time, everything will be checked, from fuel pressure, to manifold vacuum at idle, to A/F ratio. Every aspect of the kompressor system will be double checked to ensure everything is in perfect order.
Don't hesitate if you have any other questions.
Timster-
The fuel curve on our kompressor engines is handled via a mechanical linear increase in fuel pressure based on boost pressure. Everything is set at the time of installation, and double checked after 1500 miles of operation. No need for future adjustment.
Our kompressor is an integrated unit, meaning the komrpessor, intercooler and mainifold are one unit. The factory manifold is removed and put in a box to collect dust. Our manifold uses equal length runners, and the discharge passes over the intercooler cores immediatly after it is discharged, leaving little room for pressure drops and additional heat build-up. The biggest pressure drop exsists in the air box.
The spark plugs we use are one step "colder" than the factory units.
Our kompressor system does not include a boost guage, however, you are welcome to have one installed if you would like.
We let our dealer service our demo vehicles according to the FSS, and we also add an oil change every 5000 miles. 10,000 miles between oil changes, supercharged or not, is just too long in my opinion. The only special service required is a complete check-up of the kompressor system after 1500 miles of operation. At that time, everything will be checked, from fuel pressure, to manifold vacuum at idle, to A/F ratio. Every aspect of the kompressor system will be double checked to ensure everything is in perfect order.
Don't hesitate if you have any other questions.
Thank you for posting what I would say is a heck of a lot of good information. Due to my currant situation I am unable to do anything at this point.
Some one else asked about a manual transmission drive train loss, 18% is a good round number. I have personally dyno'd about 200 cars, stock, modified, S/C, Turbos, Nitrous, automatics and sticks. Depending on the manufacture Manual 17-18%, Auto 19-23%.
Happy modding,
Tim
PS
If you have never had your car dyno'd, go have it done it's a lot of fun. There's nothing like standing near your car and hearing the exhaust that you spent all that money on. (That only the people behind you can hear). And not to mention, feeling the floor vibrate. It's an awesome experience. Even if you haven't done anything to your car it's still fun!
12-13-2002, 11:10 PM
#31
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Re: Hello Mach430
Originally posted by nong
Just out of curiosity, the drivetrain loss of 21% you mentioned applies to Auto tranny only ???
Is the drivetrain loss significantly less with a manual tranny ???
Thanks
Just out of curiosity, the drivetrain loss of 21% you mentioned applies to Auto tranny only ???
Is the drivetrain loss significantly less with a manual tranny ???
Thanks
12-18-2002, 05:52 PM
#33
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CLK430 Coup
Re: Discussion of pros and cons of Kleemann compressor
Originally posted by otoupalik
Discuss Away ....
Discuss Away ....
1) what can of performance can expect from Kleem system?
2) before and after dyno? rear wheel?
3) type of intercooler and psi?
4) warranty
5) Can i visit you business for a test drive?
Thank you kindly,
Pat
12-18-2002, 07:11 PM
#34
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GL450, Sienna SE
Re: Re: Discussion of pros and cons of Kleemann compressor
Originally posted by Laguna CLK
I have a 2000 clk430,
1) what can of performance can expect from Kleem system?
2) before and after dyno? rear wheel?
3) type of intercooler and psi?
4) warranty
5) Can i visit you business for a test drive?
Thank you kindly,
Pat
I have a 2000 clk430,
1) what can of performance can expect from Kleem system?
2) before and after dyno? rear wheel?
3) type of intercooler and psi?
4) warranty
5) Can i visit you business for a test drive?
Thank you kindly,
Pat
12-18-2002, 08:40 PM
#35
Out Of Control!!
Re: Re: Discussion of pros and cons of Kleemann compressor
Pat,
The Kleemann supercharger will add about 50% more power to the rear wheels -> Dyno Proven. All of our customers are given a before and after installation dyno graph of their car, verifying their gains.
The system utilizes an intercooling system so advanced, it's patented. The intercooler is placed directly on top of the supercharger, and cools the air, right before it is compressed into the engine; resulting in the most dense and cool air possible. Without an intercooler, at any level of boost, your are likely to run lean and detonate. An aftercooler is located in the bumper (referred to as an intercooler by most companies), to provide addtional cooling.
The supercharger runs at low boost, .5 bar (7.25 psi), which combined with their intercooler, ensures a reliable and long lasting engine.
Currently, Kleemann is finalizing a warranty that will cover $30,000 (enough to replace an engine), where other tuners stop at $8,000. While a warranty is definitely a concern to many, most of their customers will agree that you'll never need it. 14 years of business, and they have never has 1 drivetrain failure.
I also have a CLK430, and with the Kleemann SC, it's putting out more power than any other tuner's alternative (supercharger or engine displacement conversion) for the 430. Give me a call or an email, and we can arrange a time to demonstrate what Kleemann power is all about!
Thanks,
Ben
The Kleemann supercharger will add about 50% more power to the rear wheels -> Dyno Proven. All of our customers are given a before and after installation dyno graph of their car, verifying their gains.
The system utilizes an intercooling system so advanced, it's patented. The intercooler is placed directly on top of the supercharger, and cools the air, right before it is compressed into the engine; resulting in the most dense and cool air possible. Without an intercooler, at any level of boost, your are likely to run lean and detonate. An aftercooler is located in the bumper (referred to as an intercooler by most companies), to provide addtional cooling.
The supercharger runs at low boost, .5 bar (7.25 psi), which combined with their intercooler, ensures a reliable and long lasting engine.
Currently, Kleemann is finalizing a warranty that will cover $30,000 (enough to replace an engine), where other tuners stop at $8,000. While a warranty is definitely a concern to many, most of their customers will agree that you'll never need it. 14 years of business, and they have never has 1 drivetrain failure.
I also have a CLK430, and with the Kleemann SC, it's putting out more power than any other tuner's alternative (supercharger or engine displacement conversion) for the 430. Give me a call or an email, and we can arrange a time to demonstrate what Kleemann power is all about!
Thanks,
Ben
12-19-2002, 12:51 PM
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My personal experiences with Kleemann G3 kit...
Pros: Great customer service, Great techincal knowledge, Responsive dealers (evosport), did I mention Great customer service?
Cons: Poor QA. Bad water pump (Initial leak - fixed, bad bearing after 1 month). No engine cover as shown on KleemannUSA website.
Would I still recommend? Probably. I hope they just get all the issues resolved before delivery to customer.
The faulty water pump is possibly the cause of damage during transit... But nonetheless, a problem that was experienced by the customer.
Pros: Great customer service, Great techincal knowledge, Responsive dealers (evosport), did I mention Great customer service?
Cons: Poor QA. Bad water pump (Initial leak - fixed, bad bearing after 1 month). No engine cover as shown on KleemannUSA website.
Would I still recommend? Probably. I hope they just get all the issues resolved before delivery to customer.
The faulty water pump is possibly the cause of damage during transit... But nonetheless, a problem that was experienced by the customer.
12-19-2002, 01:04 PM
#38
Out Of Control!!
Tango,
I'm done with mods (for now at least!). There isn't really much left I can do with the car.
E32K,
Sorry to hear about the water pump, but at least you don't have the problems we're hearing about another supercharger! I'm sure once the water pump is fixed, you're going to be tearing up the streets again!
LagunaCLK,
If it would be easier for you, I can come to your work :cough: HPS, and meet you any time. Why I fell for the same questions posted by a brand new member with the same grammar and IP, is beyond me. Still, if you'd like to see what quality and power are about, I'd be happy to demonstrate.
https://mbworld.org/forums/showthrea...855#post227855
I'm done with mods (for now at least!). There isn't really much left I can do with the car.
E32K,
Sorry to hear about the water pump, but at least you don't have the problems we're hearing about another supercharger! I'm sure once the water pump is fixed, you're going to be tearing up the streets again!
LagunaCLK,
If it would be easier for you, I can come to your work :cough: HPS, and meet you any time. Why I fell for the same questions posted by a brand new member with the same grammar and IP, is beyond me. Still, if you'd like to see what quality and power are about, I'd be happy to demonstrate.
Originally posted by MARK CUMMINS
Wow...With Four Posts ....and NO Other Signs Of Interest on the Board....Looks Like HPS is Trying Again...With this SMOKE SCREEN...Nice Try...
Wow...With Four Posts ....and NO Other Signs Of Interest on the Board....Looks Like HPS is Trying Again...With this SMOKE SCREEN...Nice Try...
Originally posted by Accord
I find it rather funny how the marketing director at HPS thinks his company is a joke! It is quite interesting that your IP address is identical to that of the marketing director at HPS.
I never went to business school, however I do know that deceit and trickery are not the best marketing tactics.
Have a nice day.
I find it rather funny how the marketing director at HPS thinks his company is a joke! It is quite interesting that your IP address is identical to that of the marketing director at HPS.
I never went to business school, however I do know that deceit and trickery are not the best marketing tactics.
Have a nice day.
12-19-2002, 01:22 PM
#40
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Volvo V90 CC
Originally posted by Mach430
LagunaCLK,
If it would be easier for you, I can come to your work :cough: HPS, and meet you any time. Why I fell for the same questions posted by a brand new member with the same grammar and IP, is beyond me. Still, if you'd like to see what quality and power are about, I'd be happy to demonstrate
LagunaCLK,
If it would be easier for you, I can come to your work :cough: HPS, and meet you any time. Why I fell for the same questions posted by a brand new member with the same grammar and IP, is beyond me. Still, if you'd like to see what quality and power are about, I'd be happy to demonstrate
12-19-2002, 01:32 PM
#41
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Let's not add fuel to the fire. I'm sure each company and their respective product will preceed its reputation over time.
Although I'm neutral to this heated debate, however I did go with the Kleemann product as I was more concerned with HP gains rather than a cost savings. Does HPS even offer an application for the 3.2L V6?
However I will say this... whenever dealing with aftermarket products such as engine modifications, be prepared for the unexpected as I did with mine so far. Choose your distributor/installer wisely, and make sure they will take care of you should anything go wrong. Evosport did, and I'm glad they were there.
Although I'm neutral to this heated debate, however I did go with the Kleemann product as I was more concerned with HP gains rather than a cost savings. Does HPS even offer an application for the 3.2L V6?
However I will say this... whenever dealing with aftermarket products such as engine modifications, be prepared for the unexpected as I did with mine so far. Choose your distributor/installer wisely, and make sure they will take care of you should anything go wrong. Evosport did, and I'm glad they were there.
12-19-2002, 03:33 PM
#42
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Originally posted by E32K
My personal experiences with Kleemann G3 kit...
Pros: Great customer service, Great techincal knowledge, Responsive dealers (evosport), did I mention Great customer service?
Cons: Poor QA. Bad water pump (Initial leak - fixed, bad bearing after 1 month). No engine cover as shown on KleemannUSA website.
Would I still recommend? Probably. I hope they just get all the issues resolved before delivery to customer.
The faulty water pump is possibly the cause of damage during transit... But nonetheless, a problem that was experienced by the customer.
My personal experiences with Kleemann G3 kit...
Pros: Great customer service, Great techincal knowledge, Responsive dealers (evosport), did I mention Great customer service?
Cons: Poor QA. Bad water pump (Initial leak - fixed, bad bearing after 1 month). No engine cover as shown on KleemannUSA website.
Would I still recommend? Probably. I hope they just get all the issues resolved before delivery to customer.
The faulty water pump is possibly the cause of damage during transit... But nonetheless, a problem that was experienced by the customer.
I'm sorry to hear about the waterpump on your kompressor. Fortunatly, this is not a problem we experience often, and I'm sorry it had to happen to you. Naturally, everything will be replaced and repaired under our one year unilimited milage warranty program.
Regarding the engine cover, we do have them avaliable for purchase. Please contact EvoSport if you would like to purchase one.
12-19-2002, 04:04 PM
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Cory, I've already spoke with Brandon about the cover and he has agreed to loan evosport the pink cover. We will use that as a template to make a custom carbon fiber cover.
BTW, how much does Kleemann charge for their cover?
BTW, how much does Kleemann charge for their cover?
12-23-2002, 01:42 PM
#45
SC'd E-430 4 Matic?
Is the 4 Matic capable of handling the torque developed by the supercharger? Also, considering the power would be passed to all four wheels, is this an advantage, due to less wheel spin, or a disadvantage due to weight, complexity or other issues?
I am also curious about the intercooler. What is the cooling fluid? I am having a hard time envisioning how it can use the 180 F water/glycol solution from the radiator to cool an air stream at 150 F.
While I am asking questions, I've read about the larger pulleys being offered for sale. Wouldn't they reduce the ultimate power generated by the accessories? Would this, then be a problem, say with the alternator on a snowy night when max. electric power is needed to run the defroster, wipers, and lights (not to mention heated seats!?).
Thanks in advance for the education.
I am also curious about the intercooler. What is the cooling fluid? I am having a hard time envisioning how it can use the 180 F water/glycol solution from the radiator to cool an air stream at 150 F.
While I am asking questions, I've read about the larger pulleys being offered for sale. Wouldn't they reduce the ultimate power generated by the accessories? Would this, then be a problem, say with the alternator on a snowy night when max. electric power is needed to run the defroster, wipers, and lights (not to mention heated seats!?).
Thanks in advance for the education.
Last edited by livetodrive; 12-23-2002 at 02:05 PM.
12-23-2002, 03:49 PM
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2017 GLE 350 Wifey, 2005 C55 AMG
Does anybody out there have a c43 with the kleeman sc on it. I think i want one but is it really worth 20 g's. my 43 has 43k onit and i love it to death. I think ill keep it until ive worn holes in the floorboards with my heels. Will my life expectancy really be diminished at all. I dont drive the car hard but maybe 10% of the time. Also is my sl tranny gonna hold up with that extra torque ripping through it, answers anybody? thanks MOE, P.S not interested in selling and getting a c32 with the s/c money love the V8 baby!!
12-23-2002, 04:06 PM
#47
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Originally posted by moedigga
Does anybody out there have a c43 with the kleeman sc on it. I think i want one but is it really worth 20 g's.
Does anybody out there have a c43 with the kleeman sc on it. I think i want one but is it really worth 20 g's.
Welcome! I say it's worth every penny! If you haven't tried riding in one you should! The hp increase alone is i believe more than 50%.
12-23-2002, 04:11 PM
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2017 GLE 350 Wifey, 2005 C55 AMG
Does anybody out there have a c43 with the kleeman sc on it. I think i want one but is it really worth 20 g's. my 43 has 43k onit and i love it to death. I think ill keep it until ive worn holes in the floorboards with my heels. Will my life expectancy really be diminished at all. I dont drive the car hard but maybe 10% of the time. Also is my sl tranny gonna hold up with that extra torque ripping through it, answers anybody? thanks MOE, P.S not interested in selling and getting a c32 with the s/c money love the V8 baby!!
12-23-2002, 05:19 PM
#49
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2017 GLE 350 Wifey, 2005 C55 AMG
Where would i go about finding a tester to drive. If i was in southern cal maybe not to hard ,but im in the dirty south. Any where within 3 hours might be worth it. maybe someone in atlanta? Anyone, Anyone?
12-24-2002, 10:48 AM
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Originally posted by moedigga
Where would i go about finding a tester to drive. If i was in southern cal maybe not to hard ,but im in the dirty south. Any where within 3 hours might be worth it. maybe someone in atlanta? Anyone, Anyone?
Where would i go about finding a tester to drive. If i was in southern cal maybe not to hard ,but im in the dirty south. Any where within 3 hours might be worth it. maybe someone in atlanta? Anyone, Anyone?
KLEEMANN has a dealer by the name of MBAutowerks just outside atlanta, in Sugar Hill They have a CLK55 K that is avaliable to drive- 100 more HP than the 430 will output, but will give you the driving impression you are looking for. www.mbautowerks.com
Speak with Bill or Donnie, and they can tell you anything you will need to know.
