SiLvaC32

heres my 2 cent... EVOSPORT and kleenman should be happy that someone is contesting against your product. this give us ( the consumer) more knowledge of what your product can do; since you are defending your product.
we don't really get that much info on your product. except from this website. at least for me, i need reassurance to put down 2-3 thousand dollars on our 60K dollar car. but of course... you guys don't need to start flaming if you know the what the other party say is not true. just simply by proving him/her wrong will show us the professionalism.

just a thought...

Jerry

Buellwinkle

Brandon, don't pretend like you don't know about all the S/C failures with your pulley kits. I already posted names before, I won't post the same old names again but I'll tell you that the latest is Silversport on his SLK230 last week. The damage, $3,500 for a new supercharger. He's lucky, his extended warranty fixed the problem despite the aftermarket pulley. I'm sure you'll find a good excuse why it's not your pulley's fault, but why does this problem seem to happen with cars using your pulley design?

SteveL

I'd like to see it tested. Sounds like a good theory but I think it should be proven if you are going to sell it. And like I said, you'll have fun proving it so why not.

Brandon @ Kleemann

Carl-

Ill repeat my orignal question since you didnt answer it the first time.

Maybe you can explain to me how ANY pulley wouldnt have the same risk. Really- tell me how any pulley that increases shaft speed of an SC doesnt have the same risk as any other pulley doing the same thing. Explain to me and anyone else who is still has the patience to be reading this thread.

Im all for critical analysis of failures- lets get to the bottom if it. But lets do it in a way where its not the official/unofficial ASP rep trying to cast doubt on my companies product when your companies product does this same thing.

Brandon @ Kleemann

Yes- Ill agree that it sounds good on paper but may fall apart in reality. Ill leave it up to EvoSport to provide the data. I was just trying to suggest what the operating priciple might be.

Brandon @ Kleemann

Jerry-

You are right- Its time for a time out. Its difficult to retain your composure at times.

Buellwinkle

Brandon, your on a roll. I'm very interested knowing why myself, afterall, if it's endemic to all pulley kits then I'm affected. My theory (only a theory so don't fry me for thinking out loud) is that the ring that is attached to the factory pulley in the field (vs. a permanent ring that is re-balanced in the shop like Vaeth or Renntech) is causing the factory pulley to exceed it's balance tolerance. This addition woble/vibration may somehow cause vibrations be transmitted through the belt to the other pulleys. The S/C spinning the fastest and is the most delicate gets damaged first.

Brandon @ Kleemann

I would not agree (naturally)

Rubber belt = dynamic expansion contraction = shock absorbsion

Spring loaded belt tensioner= shock absorbsion

Shock (among other things like no need for timing) is why the devices are not spun with chains. NVH.

Why doesnt the ALT, PS, AC etc suffer? They would be subject to the same shock loads? The ALT in an ASP set up is spinning @ 23,300 RPMs at Redline. Shouldnt that just explode? The SC isnt turning that fast.

Buellwinkle

Sure, but at 23,000 rpm think of the killer stereo I can run.

Brandon @ Kleemann

You are avoiding the question.

Mach430

Steve,

Please do a search for "r&d" and "c32" in the c32 forum. We have already done several months of testing on the street, dyno, and the track. Through the various posts Vadim has made, you should be able to conclude to why we find the intercooler reservoir upgrade necessary. If you require more data, I can forward any inquiries directly to Vadim for you.

Thanks,
Ben

Vadim @ evosport

SteveL: Here is a link to why we upgrade intercooler.

R&D #4

I know you read it before, so you questioning my R&D is really surprising. If you think I am not doing it right or if it is flawed, than I do not understand your PMs asking R&D questions.

I am posting R&D as we go along to educate customers. This is our philosophy and we are proud of it. If you disagree with it than just state it without being insulating or looking like a fool.

Comments like these do not make you look any more knowledgeable or get you more respect. Especially, when the truth comes out.

As far as ITG filters, open up your own air box and take a look at it. The edge of the paper filter hangs down, closing of about a 1/3 of the opening. Now paper will let air through that edge. ITG's edge is solid carboard, so that 1/3 is now lost to airflow. We lost 12-14HP on the dyno, we carry ITG, yet unlike other tuners we will not sell it to you if it loses power.

SteveL

I've read the R&D carefully. I'm just not sure I agree with all of the findings. I do believe the ITG filters don't loose power. The ITG filters I have seem to fit correctly and I don't believe the block the air intake at all. Maybe they are different but I didn't think so.

In the past you have told me that even a stock C32 returns poor timing values 12 to 15 on CA 91 yet I tested one and it ran was running 22 to 24. So I'm just questioning the end result if the data is flawed in the first place. I certainly don't think you are purposely misleading anyone, you are seeing what your are seeing and reacting to that. I'm just suggesting that maybe not everything is correct.

I've also seen lots of data from others to support that an enlarged crankshaft pulley by itself does not cause a problem for the stock intercooler setup, even on 91 octane fuel. Now maybe there is something about your pulley that makes the resevoir required, it is bigger or lighter or both resulting in some retarding. However, I don't think the same is true of the Renntech pulley from what I have seen. Then there is the whole issue of heat soak which has already been discussed on both sides.

I apologize for the SLK55 thing. But if you read the whole thread, I think you'll see that Brad started the whole thing with "I'm a track king LOL" and "please don't say any negative without facts..." I was simply expressing an opinion, plain and simple. I didn't say the IC resevoir would hurt anything, just I didn't believe it would make a difference on a track after heat soak. I don't think that constitutes a negative statement, just an opinion. I also don't think it will change anyone minds about buying your product.

I appreciate all of the research you have done, it is very interesting. But is it OK to disagree with some of it? I would hope so because if not then this forum is just an advertising vechile for Evosport and not a place to express opinions and questions things.

SteveL

Vadim, reading this more carefully, I think I know the problem with the filters, the ITG filter I have does not have any cardboard so, they have a foam edge and like I said, they don't block the airway at all. So the ones in the Renntech kit are different that the ones they sent to you. I don't know why. However, in the past, when we have discussed this, you were pretty sure they were the same and we never went any further than that. So. that explains the difference with the filters.

Vadim @ evosport

1. Steve, I will post you data on ITG filters along with pictures.

2. As far as timing, remember we could have different octane settings in our DMEs. That alone can account for the difference. This is one area that I am researching right now.

3. As you can see from dyno run in first 4 gears, (R&D#4 link) power goes down as IAT goes up. Prior to IC upgrade we would see 180F degrees in the 4th all the time. With IC upgrade we are down to 150F and very stable, plus it cools down a lot quicker vs. stock config. I have data files, as soon as I find them I will post them.

4. That you have bring up with Brad. He is on the track, however, at least twice a month.

5. You are WELCOME to disagree! But please bring facts. Hearsay from a friend is hardy "scientific". R&D is what I live for :-)

Peace.

SteveL

Different octane settings? Are you running 93. I'm sure the one I tested was running 91 or whatever stock is. However, I wouldn't expect that to make that BIG of a difference, 22 to 15?

Dyno or on the road. I think that makes a big difference.

I am drawing on facts from R&D that rage2 did with ITG filters and a Renntech pulley. He posted a detailed description of what he did and while my testing has been limited, my findings agree more with his. However, he got frustrated with the whole thing when someone suggested that he was using a bad scanner.


Ditto.

Buellwinkle

Vadim, not too confuse the issue in comparing my C230 but are you really using the windshield washer reservoir for added cooling capacity for the IC? I wanted to use it for an intercooler sprayer on my coupe only to learn that it's got heater hoses running to it and it's heated (helps clean the bugs off).

Also, when doing IC testing, I've always did it on the open road. For example in my car using the factory IC my IAT max out at 156F no matter how hard I run it over and over again 0 to 100 mph and it cools to about 118F in 10 seconds, down to 90F in about 30 seconds on a 75F day. On the dyno I can easily get the IAT to 175F and it takes a lot longer to cool down. Have you tried an intecooler sprayer/mister. I know you've used aquamist water injection in the past, have you tried that with the C32. Linh showed good results on his SLK230.

Buellwinkle

Yes I did, damm you noticed. I can see you point about vibration being dampened by the belt on rotational vibration but I'm thinking more of front/back woble that would shake the belt back and forth across it's width, not it's length. This may so minute and it's happening so fast that it's not visible. This is not a slam on your product, more of slam on the factory pulley. I know that the balancer was having trouble balancing one pulley and it may be that some of them come somewhat unbalanced from the factory, maybe in a state that's marginally acceptable until you add a ring to the perimeter and that makes it even more unstable. Now you may have done testing on a couple of pulleys but can't account for all factory pulleys unless each one was re-balanced after adding the ring. The factory acceptable axis runout is .6mm, add to the diameter and that increases the runout at the pulley plane.

SteveL

Vadim, I also disagree with whoever said that water wetter makes not difference. I agree that it will not affect IAT but it certainly affects engine coolant temperature, exactly what it is intended to do. Since I started running with it, my engine coolant temperature has dropped about 5 degrees and it recovers quicker than it did before I started running with it. I'm pretty sure someone from Evosport posted that. rage2 and others I have talked to report the exact same thing as me.

I've also had good success with Amsoil 2000 octane booster which I previously posted info about. You consider trying yourself. It should provide additional help for your CA customers.

This posting by rage2 on the SLK mbnz.org forum shows results with the Renntech ITG filters. Renntech ITG

otoupalik

So let me get this right, it is OK for you to post a negative opinion and that is not a flame. But when I post my opinion on your comment, it is! Get real!

I am so *** tired of this board. Some of you have so little respect for what it takes to keep this damn board alive. Realize, we are enthusiasts first. I am the owner of evosport second. As we have stated about 178,000 times, this board was here long before evosport was even a thought in my head.

However, the amount of BS, negative reactions to people who are honestly trying to help other members, flame wars, personal 'kingdoms' tires me.

We do NOT have to keep this board open. Do you really think the 20-40 hours per week for Simon and I are rewarded? Let me tell you, they are not. Instead we have to deal with comments like this.

So you think that your testing of 3 cars is equivalent to our testing of over 100. Fine, your right. However, I don't care if you state "in my opinion", it is the way you comment that comes across to the newbie or lurker as authoritative. If you cannot understand this, then you are lost.

The amount of attacks that ALL of our sponsors take on this board is OVERWHELMING.

Seriously, I am 50/50 to just close this thing down tomorrow.

You might think that we act too emotionally, but again, let me restate - WE ARE ENTHUSIASTS - more so then 99% of any of the other members here. Why else would we have started this board? Why else would we actually track our MBZ's? Develop products? Let me tell you it is not for the money or the thanks - cuz there really is not much of either.

Brad

otoupalik

They are the same filter - verified by ITG.

Please excuse Vaidm and give him a break, english is not his native language. He meant to say that the edges are hard rubber with foam protruding further. You are more then welcome to come the the dyno any day after 5pm and we can test all the filters you want - if they make power you can have any on our shelf for free.

Once again, you need to get your facts straight. No one from evosport said that, what was said was that when used with anti-freeze, there are no improvements we have seen on track or dyno. Ask REDLINE, it is meant to work with water. In fact we use it in every race car we build from amatuer to professional. In fact, on a side note, the BMW that won the Speed World Challenge race in Sebring today had some of our technology - must not work well though, huh?

I am sure you will start to believe that anything negative on the board came from us, right. Next you will post that we said Hitler was good and that we want Sadam to stay in power? Please, try to get your facts straight, you are walking very close to the line of slander/liable.

Also, feel free to use Amsoil octane, you will likely regret it. Use NOS Racing formula in the black box! It s good stuff! Anything else, and just watch your plugs turn orange and foul and your cats break down. Might not happen immediately, but get it hot enough at high revs and you will see what I mean.

Thanks

Brad

Brandon @ Kleemann

OK Buell- we are getting somewhere.

Have you ever pulled belt as hard as you can outwards? Lets assume you are a super human freak with maximum toughness and you can muster 200 lbs of belt force outwards. Did you know it would take only 10 lbs of side load to move the belt 1mm? Its the weakest direction. And rightly so.

Chuck one of our pulleys in a lathe with a dial indicator. Check the run out on both axis, they are within .001". This does not negate any possibilty of out of plane on the crank- but unless you are pig-pen and drop sand on the crank there would be no excuse for getting within .01mm of a "round" orbit. Probaly the same with ASP's pulleys too.

Rotational speed has to be the only issue here.

Brandon @ Kleemann

And another thing.... just for clarification.

Balance and vibration damper are two entirely DIFFERENT things.

Balance: Take a round wheel and spin it, if its balanced it will not "favor" stopping at a heavy spot. EI- spin it 100 times and it winds up parked in the same location, indicating a "heavy" spot.

Vibration damper: A dead weight suspeneded on a rotational member whose mass is tuned to couter-act harmoinics induced in the same rotational mass that left undamped may destort (or lead to the catastropic failure) of said rotational mass.

They are not one in the same.

You will not, ever, in a million years, period, ruin a SC by spinning it with a warped or otherwise imbalanced drive pulley. The worst you could hope for is destroying the belt, as it was not designed to handle these "runouts" of the pulleys.

Vadim @ evosport

OK, chill everyone.

Carl: We tested both on the dyno and the road. In both cases IAT went down 30 degrees using an additional capacity that windshield washer provides.

As far as water injection, it works very well. But I have a number of concerns:

1. If it is used as tuning aid, i.e. without it, engine detonates - if anything ever goes wrong you will lose an engine. Not cheap in C32's case.

2. Unless we install it and tune it, it can cause more damage than help. Each car is a bit different and the range where just the right amount of water mixture keeps detonation at bay is very small. Too much water and car bogs, too little and it does not do much.
Also potential water lock from pump staying on. I have seen it twice already.

3. I do not think C32 customer will accept it. It is too much of a "band aid". Besides we are not at the limit of other modifications yet.


Steve: Yes, from 22 to 12 is very possible with different octane settings. like I said this is still under R&D.

4. Water Wetter. Maybe your car is unique, but over the last 9 years we have probably sold over 1000 bottles of WW. I have yet to hear anyone say it made any difference in water temperature. A number of years ago we were even doing test for "All Chevy" magazine (do not aks why or how ;-)) and we could not get it lower temperature on a big block Camaro.

The best part about is it helps prevent aluminum corrosion. Other than that it is simply a solution of pink soap.

5. ITG filters. Tell you what, I will retest them again, now with ODPS and headers. Lets see what happens.

SiLvaC32

vadim.... are you saying that C32 might still have a engine failure w/your ODP kit if its tuned not correctly? sorry... i read it 3 times and that seems what you are saying.

Jerry

PS... CHILL PEOPLE!!!