Excellent and controversial Engine theory
02-20-2004, 03:36 PM
#1
Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 99
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Excellent and controversial Engine theory
Pat McGivern AKA "Motoman" is a motorcycle tuner that has an excellent newsletter with serious "makes you think about it" theories. Most of this stuff transfers well to automotive design as well.
http://www.mototuneusa.com/
http://www.mototuneusa.com/
02-21-2004, 04:51 AM
#2
Senior Member
It is very interesting...
But take a look at the "Interesting arcticle.. Any thoughts?" thread started by Sleestack. He beat you to it! I'm subscribing to the Moto-man now. A good piece of evidence for the Moto-mans theory if how all AMG motors are run on a dyno after assembly. Obviously, in order to get a comnplete dyno run, the engine has to be revved throughout it's entire rev range, and I'd bet dollars to doughnuts that the AMG motors are "ring sealed" on the dyno, just like the Moto-man describes. I even e-mailed him to point that out, so he could use AMG as further testimony...
Best regards,
Matt
Best regards,
Matt
02-23-2004, 05:59 AM
#3
Super Member
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Oregon
Posts: 757
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
C32AMG
Old news is better than no news
Welcome to the 1970's,laddies.We found this same thing to be true while racing 30-odd years ago.Seems as though our engines never really ran well until after some track time-they couldn't be run hard enough on the street to fully seat the rings.This does NOT mean that your brand-new whatever can/should go straight from the showroom to the track...it needs some time to loosen up
before going to the track or dyno.
The bucks-up racers that I knew back then would put one drop of a light machine oil on each piston skirt at assembly.The only other oil in the cylinder was a light coating on the cylinder wall to avoid rust.They'd fire it up on the dyno and run it at ~1/2 redline for twenty minutes,and then do dyno pulls until the blowby from the crankcase vent almost disappeared...usually 10-15 pulls.If the blowby didn't drop to what they felt was an acceptable level,the engine came apart to find out why.
It's nice to have deep pockets!.
This method of engine break-in was old news when I first learned about it.In the right situation,it still works.
before going to the track or dyno.
The bucks-up racers that I knew back then would put one drop of a light machine oil on each piston skirt at assembly.The only other oil in the cylinder was a light coating on the cylinder wall to avoid rust.They'd fire it up on the dyno and run it at ~1/2 redline for twenty minutes,and then do dyno pulls until the blowby from the crankcase vent almost disappeared...usually 10-15 pulls.If the blowby didn't drop to what they felt was an acceptable level,the engine came apart to find out why.
It's nice to have deep pockets!.This method of engine break-in was old news when I first learned about it.In the right situation,it still works.
02-23-2004, 04:04 PM
#5
Super Member
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Oregon
Posts: 757
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
C32AMG
Sure,why not...
Just put the hammer all the way down....NOT!
The process I described is for ring-seating only.If it were up to me,I'd drive moderately/sometimes lean on it for the first 1K miles or so.For a long,happy life,you need to heat-cycle the engine parts and give the lower end a bit of time to loosen up.
Change the oil,(mostly a debris-in-the-flter check:don't ask why I've learned to do this )..then go do an Italian tuneup or three...the dragstrip works also.
A for-real race engine gets fresh parts very frequently.If you don't mind a lot of maintenace(replacing hard parts),the bit about going easy at the start can be ignored.
Over-babying the engine is not good...treat it like a good friend who needs exercise,not abuse.
The process I described is for ring-seating only.If it were up to me,I'd drive moderately/sometimes lean on it for the first 1K miles or so.For a long,happy life,you need to heat-cycle the engine parts and give the lower end a bit of time to loosen up.
Change the oil,(mostly a debris-in-the-flter check:don't ask why I've learned to do this
)..then go do an Italian tuneup or three...the dragstrip works also. A for-real race engine gets fresh parts very frequently.If you don't mind a lot of maintenace(replacing hard parts),the bit about going easy at the start can be ignored.
Over-babying the engine is not good...treat it like a good friend who needs exercise,not abuse.
02-24-2004, 04:36 AM
#6
Senior Member
I have to agree with Mr. Clark...
While the aforementioned process is good for ring sealing, I personally believe that there are other parts that need a more conventional break-in. Items like the transmission and differential. Also, as Mr. Clark stated, the bottom end bearings as well. Think of the brakes, too. Chances are, if you were to hammer it down almost immediately, you're going to be calling on those brakes to haul that beast down before the pads and rotors are bedded in properly. I suspect that once again, the proverbial Benjamin Franklin quote applies even in here.... Everything in moderation!
Mr. Clark, while I don't want to put you on the spot, or pry into anything personal, would you mind elaborarting as to what kind of racing you had some involvement in? I've recently become very interested in vintage racing, and I'm curious as to what you ran in that time period. I'd like to hear that very much!
Best regards,
Matt
p.s.) Vraa, care to elaborate on your X5 purchase? Any chance it's a 4.6is? (God, I love those wheels!!)
Mr. Clark, while I don't want to put you on the spot, or pry into anything personal, would you mind elaborarting as to what kind of racing you had some involvement in? I've recently become very interested in vintage racing, and I'm curious as to what you ran in that time period. I'd like to hear that very much!
Best regards,
Matt
p.s.) Vraa, care to elaborate on your X5 purchase? Any chance it's a 4.6is? (God, I love those wheels!!)
02-25-2004, 04:15 AM
#7
Super Member
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Oregon
Posts: 757
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
C32AMG
That was a long time ago...racebikes at HRP
TD2's,TZ/RD 350's,RD400's etc.The occasional H1 or H2 or Z1...Mostly 70's ring-dings.The valveless wonders had/have the same weaknesses as do their for-stroke cousins.My current track toy is a slightly warmed up FZR600 that is now old enough for vintage racing.
I have friends working for a national-level AMA team,and the only change in engines is that they're physically smaller and make more power...a LOT more power.Would you believe about 125 RWHP out of a mildly warmed-up 600?. And the same tuning rules apply now as what we had 30 years ago.
Engines are engines-they all do the same thing:convert fuel into thrust.Once you realize that there is NO magic in building an engine,only knowledge,it gets easier to understand. Seeing the engine as a system that's only as good as its' weakest part. Attention to detail matters far more than flashy parts on the outside.Don't be afraid to ask questions.
The best bang for the buck,racing-wise,is track school and coaching.Brainpower can make up for a shortfall in HP...but the opposite never works.
Last of all,but most important-have fun!.
I have friends working for a national-level AMA team,and the only change in engines is that they're physically smaller and make more power...a LOT more power.Would you believe about 125 RWHP out of a mildly warmed-up 600?.
And the same tuning rules apply now as what we had 30 years ago.Engines are engines-they all do the same thing:convert fuel into thrust.Once you realize that there is NO magic in building an engine,only knowledge,it gets easier to understand.
Seeing the engine as a system that's only as good as its' weakest part. Attention to detail matters far more than flashy parts on the outside.Don't be afraid to ask questions.The best bang for the buck,racing-wise,is track school and coaching.Brainpower can make up for a shortfall in HP...but the opposite never works.
Last of all,but most important-have fun!.
Trending Topics
02-25-2004, 10:58 AM
#8
Re: I have to agree with Mr. Clark...
Originally posted by AMG///Merc
p.s.) Vraa, care to elaborate on your X5 purchase? Any chance it's a 4.6is? (God, I love those wheels!!)
p.s.) Vraa, care to elaborate on your X5 purchase? Any chance it's a 4.6is? (God, I love those wheels!!)
The 4.6is was discontinued for the 2004 year, the 4.8is is coming out but we couldn't justify the wait nor the price. Personally I wanted the Cayenne Turbo
http://vraa.gotdns.com/Pictures/2-24...X5%20Pictures/
I'll be taking videos and more pictures when I get home
02-25-2004, 12:28 PM
#9
Super Member
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 592
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
AMG C43, 1999
As far as that new X5, juat warm it up and then put the hammer down. Full throttle right to the rev limiter. I can honestly say it will give you more Hp and a beeter engine over the long run. Getting those rings sealed is critical.
I have known Motoman for several years and have followed his methods and others when building my own AMA Formula Extreme engines. We always put our engines together with absolutely no oil on the cylinder walls or pistons and most other engine builders do the same.
I quit racing AMA Superbike about 4 years ago.
Jeff
I have known Motoman for several years and have followed his methods and others when building my own AMA Formula Extreme engines. We always put our engines together with absolutely no oil on the cylinder walls or pistons and most other engine builders do the same.
I quit racing AMA Superbike about 4 years ago.
Jeff
02-25-2004, 05:36 PM
#10
Senior Member
Thanks for the response Steve!
For whatever reason, I assumed that you were racing cars versus motorcycles, but as coincidence would have it, I've been a huge bike head for the longest time. Unfortunately, I paralyzed my left arm from a severe Brachial-Plexus injury from a motorcycle accident so I'm not able to ride anymore, but that passion is still burning as brightly as ever!
Speaking of Rz350's, my second bike was a wickedly fast '84 Rz350 in King Kenny colors. I forget some of the work that had been done, but I do remember what some of the mods were. It had Toomey expansion chambers, reeds (Boysens, I believe), ported and polished cylinder heads, a trued and welded crank, and jetted carbs with individual K&N filters. I bought the bike already modded, and as I mentioned, it had a few more things done, but I can't recalll what they were (this was back in 89).
Chasis wise, it was stock with the exception of a steering damper, rear-sets and clip-ons...
Now when I tell other people about my "Wickedly fast 350", they all kind of giggle and snicker a bit, but if they only knew! As you know, there would be no power below 6500 rpm, but once you swung past that into the power band, the exhaust would change from the ringing-dinging and popping, to this absolute banshee wail (pun intended), and that bike would pull hard. Friends who rode it would come back with trembling hands. I wrecked that bike twice, as it was the first bike that I really tryed to learn how to ride aggresively. One of those wrecks was when I looped it trying to learn how to wheelie...
In chronological order, I went from an 84' Kawasaki GpZ550, my aforementioned Rz350, a 90 GSX-R1100, a 92 FZR1000, a 92 Ducati 851, a 91 GSX-R1100, and my last bike was a 98 ZX-9. My 91 GSX-R was another very fast bike. It had a Wiseco 1216cc big bore kit, an RES Superbike head (port&polished, bead-blasted, 3-angle valve seats), 38mm Mikuni flatslides, degreed cams, Yoshimura Duplex exhaust, and a Dyna ignition. It dynoed at 141 hp, which I believe is pretty respectable considering the year.
I miss riding in the worst way imaginable, and I really wish that I could just get over it already. I think that I could figure out a way to ride again by using something like a thumb mounted clutch lever, but my family would disown me if I ever rode again. I also figure that it would be kind of tough riding with one arm as my left arm is completely paralyzed from the shoulder down. I think the hardest thing would be hard braking, and resisting the tendency to turn right from bracing myself with my right arm. Acceleration wouldn't be too much of a problem I think as I had learned to loosen my grip on the bars and brace myself through my legs and the seat of my pants. Oh well, I guess there's really no point in pondering it anymore.
Speaking of racing Jeff, I had been intending to send you a PM to inquire about your racing history. Is that you in your avatar? Were you racing Formula Extreme? Great series! You must be an excelent rider to qualify as an AMA pro-rider. Really excellent. The God-awful WORST AMA pro is better than 99.99% of the best street riders out there! My favorite racers are the Bostrom brothers. I like how they use the rear brake to back the bike into the corners. Awesome stuff. I think Eric's true talent is finally going to show now that he's finally off of that antiquated ZX-7! They both seem like really nice people too, and that goes a long way with me. I also like Kurtis Roberts, as he's ultra aggressive. I love the way Aaron Yates can slide his Suzuki and all those crazt crossed up wheelies he does. Very entertaining rider!! I think that if he could learn how to conserve his tires a bit better, he'd be allot more consistent...
MotoGP!?! I won't even get into that right now. If you think that THIS post is long, just start talking about the new 4-strokes! RCV211, YZR-M1, ZX-RR, the Desmodieci and the Aprilia Cube? Man... What I guy wouldn't do! Bring on the '04 season!
I've been to the F-USA races at Pocono a few times, and I saw a bunch of WERA and CCS events at Summit Point. In retrospect, I really wish that I had done some roadracing. The one and only reason that I hadn't was simply because I could not afford two bikes, and I felt that racing a couple weekends a month just wasn't going to be enough seat time for me. I tried to ride as often as I could, and had even done a few 500 mile days. All of these incredible bikes out now are rrreeaaallyyy killing me. The new GSX-R1000, R1, the new ZX-10 and CBR1000RR. Aprilia Millie's, Tuono's and Ducati twins...
>Heavy sigh< Well gents, any advice for a seriously broken-hearted fella? I love my CLK, and that goes some way to filling that hole, but I'll be honest in that I would trade ANY car to be able to ride again. I know that it's just a fact of life now, and I have to face up to it, but try as I might, I just can't stop thinking about it. It doesn't help any that I'm still in constant pain (I'm disabled by it) that is a constant reminder of my accident. I think that maybe if I felt normal, I'd be able to move on, but this arrow stuck in my back (At least that's how it feels) is a never ending reminder that I'm in bad shape. I'm sorry to digress the subject into a depressing one, but I've been kind of down lately and could use a little pick-me-up...
Best regards,
Matt
Speaking of Rz350's, my second bike was a wickedly fast '84 Rz350 in King Kenny colors. I forget some of the work that had been done, but I do remember what some of the mods were. It had Toomey expansion chambers, reeds (Boysens, I believe), ported and polished cylinder heads, a trued and welded crank, and jetted carbs with individual K&N filters. I bought the bike already modded, and as I mentioned, it had a few more things done, but I can't recalll what they were (this was back in 89).
Chasis wise, it was stock with the exception of a steering damper, rear-sets and clip-ons...
Now when I tell other people about my "Wickedly fast 350", they all kind of giggle and snicker a bit, but if they only knew! As you know, there would be no power below 6500 rpm, but once you swung past that into the power band, the exhaust would change from the ringing-dinging and popping, to this absolute banshee wail (pun intended), and that bike would pull hard. Friends who rode it would come back with trembling hands. I wrecked that bike twice, as it was the first bike that I really tryed to learn how to ride aggresively. One of those wrecks was when I looped it trying to learn how to wheelie...
In chronological order, I went from an 84' Kawasaki GpZ550, my aforementioned Rz350, a 90 GSX-R1100, a 92 FZR1000, a 92 Ducati 851, a 91 GSX-R1100, and my last bike was a 98 ZX-9. My 91 GSX-R was another very fast bike. It had a Wiseco 1216cc big bore kit, an RES Superbike head (port&polished, bead-blasted, 3-angle valve seats), 38mm Mikuni flatslides, degreed cams, Yoshimura Duplex exhaust, and a Dyna ignition. It dynoed at 141 hp, which I believe is pretty respectable considering the year.
I miss riding in the worst way imaginable, and I really wish that I could just get over it already. I think that I could figure out a way to ride again by using something like a thumb mounted clutch lever, but my family would disown me if I ever rode again. I also figure that it would be kind of tough riding with one arm as my left arm is completely paralyzed from the shoulder down. I think the hardest thing would be hard braking, and resisting the tendency to turn right from bracing myself with my right arm. Acceleration wouldn't be too much of a problem I think as I had learned to loosen my grip on the bars and brace myself through my legs and the seat of my pants. Oh well, I guess there's really no point in pondering it anymore.
Speaking of racing Jeff, I had been intending to send you a PM to inquire about your racing history. Is that you in your avatar? Were you racing Formula Extreme? Great series! You must be an excelent rider to qualify as an AMA pro-rider. Really excellent. The God-awful WORST AMA pro is better than 99.99% of the best street riders out there! My favorite racers are the Bostrom brothers. I like how they use the rear brake to back the bike into the corners. Awesome stuff. I think Eric's true talent is finally going to show now that he's finally off of that antiquated ZX-7! They both seem like really nice people too, and that goes a long way with me. I also like Kurtis Roberts, as he's ultra aggressive. I love the way Aaron Yates can slide his Suzuki and all those crazt crossed up wheelies he does. Very entertaining rider!! I think that if he could learn how to conserve his tires a bit better, he'd be allot more consistent...
MotoGP!?! I won't even get into that right now. If you think that THIS post is long, just start talking about the new 4-strokes! RCV211, YZR-M1, ZX-RR, the Desmodieci and the Aprilia Cube? Man... What I guy wouldn't do! Bring on the '04 season!
I've been to the F-USA races at Pocono a few times, and I saw a bunch of WERA and CCS events at Summit Point. In retrospect, I really wish that I had done some roadracing. The one and only reason that I hadn't was simply because I could not afford two bikes, and I felt that racing a couple weekends a month just wasn't going to be enough seat time for me. I tried to ride as often as I could, and had even done a few 500 mile days. All of these incredible bikes out now are rrreeaaallyyy killing me. The new GSX-R1000, R1, the new ZX-10 and CBR1000RR. Aprilia Millie's, Tuono's and Ducati twins...
>Heavy sigh< Well gents, any advice for a seriously broken-hearted fella? I love my CLK, and that goes some way to filling that hole, but I'll be honest in that I would trade ANY car to be able to ride again. I know that it's just a fact of life now, and I have to face up to it, but try as I might, I just can't stop thinking about it. It doesn't help any that I'm still in constant pain (I'm disabled by it) that is a constant reminder of my accident. I think that maybe if I felt normal, I'd be able to move on, but this arrow stuck in my back (At least that's how it feels) is a never ending reminder that I'm in bad shape. I'm sorry to digress the subject into a depressing one, but I've been kind of down lately and could use a little pick-me-up...
Best regards,
Matt
02-25-2004, 06:13 PM
#11
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 450
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: Thanks for the response Steve!
Originally posted by AMG///Merc
>Heavy sigh< Well gents, any advice for a seriously broken-hearted fella? I love my CLK, and that goes some way to filling that hole, but I'll be honest in that I would trade ANY car to be able to ride again. I know that it's just a fact of life now, and I have to face up to it, but try as I might, I just can't stop thinking about it.
Best regards,
Matt
>Heavy sigh< Well gents, any advice for a seriously broken-hearted fella? I love my CLK, and that goes some way to filling that hole, but I'll be honest in that I would trade ANY car to be able to ride again. I know that it's just a fact of life now, and I have to face up to it, but try as I might, I just can't stop thinking about it.
Best regards,
Matt
Not to sidetrack your post, but when was the last time you saw passion like that from a late model benz owner about their car? I think we need more people like you....
02-28-2004, 02:45 AM
#12
Super Member
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 592
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
AMG C43, 1999
Matt,
I know about the injuries and pain and have suffered through many myself. All I can tell you is to work very hard at getting yourself back in shape, your body is capable of great things if your mind is set to improve it. It's going to hurt and take a lot of effort, but it will pay off.
Each day is a new start.
Yes, thats me is the avatar. And speaking of Eric Bostrom, I spent most a day back in Jan of 2000, dicing back and forth with him at Willow Springs raceway. It was lots of fun and Eric is a very down to earth guy.
My best AMA Formula Extreme finish was 4th at Sears Pt, a track I know real well.
As for not having a bike I can relate as I too don't ride anymore. So I get even by taking my C43 out and flogging it to death on the back roads where I live.
Best Regards,
Jeff
I know about the injuries and pain and have suffered through many myself. All I can tell you is to work very hard at getting yourself back in shape, your body is capable of great things if your mind is set to improve it. It's going to hurt and take a lot of effort, but it will pay off.
Each day is a new start.
Yes, thats me is the avatar. And speaking of Eric Bostrom, I spent most a day back in Jan of 2000, dicing back and forth with him at Willow Springs raceway. It was lots of fun and Eric is a very down to earth guy.
My best AMA Formula Extreme finish was 4th at Sears Pt, a track I know real well.
As for not having a bike I can relate as I too don't ride anymore. So I get even by taking my C43 out and flogging it to death on the back roads where I live.
Best Regards,
Jeff
03-20-2004, 12:10 AM
#13
MBWorld Fanatic!
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Abingdon, MD
Posts: 2,012
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Jeff flogges his C43
Passion indeed. Awesome post Matt! Sorry to hear about your accident but I agree with Jeff's post. Just keep trying and dreaming. Memories of feelings and situations of the past are irreplacible. It sounds like you have some great memories.
If you can get through the 40 - 60 seconds it take to autocross, it may be a new outlet you could pursue. Likely wouldn't be the same, but you could put the car in 2nd and and flogg.
Passion indeed. Awesome post Matt! Sorry to hear about your accident but I agree with Jeff's post. Just keep trying and dreaming. Memories of feelings and situations of the past are irreplacible. It sounds like you have some great memories.
If you can get through the 40 - 60 seconds it take to autocross, it may be a new outlet you could pursue. Likely wouldn't be the same, but you could put the car in 2nd and and flogg.
Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
