Kleemann SC Intercooler Reservoir
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Joined: May 2002
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Kleemann SC Intercooler Reservoir
Does the Kleemann SC system's intercooler require a reservior ??
Judging from the pic from http://www.mbautowerks.com/performan..._project.html,
it doesn't seem to have one...
Thanks
Judging from the pic from http://www.mbautowerks.com/performan..._project.html,
it doesn't seem to have one...
Thanks
Super Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 557
Likes: 1
From: San Diego
99' SLK 230 & 01' CLK 430
I'm not sure but i think they don't use intercooler because they are only running 5-6 psi of boost. If they are in the near future for higher boost, air to air intercooler would be best.
Senior Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 272
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From: Olympia, Washington
KLEEMANN C230K
I don't think so, just the radiator.
Lihn, yes they do use an intercooler. It is a four-core Laminova water-air intercooler. Built into the charger itself. That is how they can get the high HP gains with the lower boost.
Lihn, yes they do use an intercooler. It is a four-core Laminova water-air intercooler. Built into the charger itself. That is how they can get the high HP gains with the lower boost.
Last edited by dj-po; May 15, 2002 at 04:10 PM.
Former Vendor of MBWorld
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Intercooler-
ANY and I mean ANY SC system worth its salt has an intercooler. Simple law of physics or fluid dynamics whatever you like, is that as you compress air you heat it up. The degree to which it is heated depends on A: the efficiency of the compressor and B: the psi to which you compress the air. Any amount if added heat will DECREASE the density of the the air.
You want the coolest air possible- why? To reduce or iliminate the possibility of detonation and to make the most power. A 10 psi EATON SC system non-intercooled will make the same power as a 6 psi intercooled KLEEMANN system on the same engine!!!
You want the coolest air possible- why? To reduce or iliminate the possibility of detonation and to make the most power. A 10 psi EATON SC system non-intercooled will make the same power as a 6 psi intercooled KLEEMANN system on the same engine!!!
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Originally posted by linh
I'm not sure but i think they don't use intercooler because they are only running 5-6 psi of boost. If they are in the near future for higher boost, air to air intercooler would be best.
I'm not sure but i think they don't use intercooler because they are only running 5-6 psi of boost. If they are in the near future for higher boost, air to air intercooler would be best.
Air to air systems require a huge amount of plumbing which reduces throttle response and adds unneeded complexity. Water to air systems (when properly designed and built) offer a SIGNIFICANT heat exchange advantage over similarly sized air to air units.
Just because its in vogue to have a door sized intercooler on your civic doesnt mean it makes sense from an engineering standpoint.
BTW- KLEEMANN runs .5 bar (7.3 psi) boost pressure.
Last edited by Brandon @ Kleemann; May 17, 2002 at 07:54 PM.
Super Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 557
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From: San Diego
99' SLK 230 & 01' CLK 430
Kleemann,
I did say that i'm not sure about Kleemann S/C. But anyway, in general. If you only run mild boost at 5 psi. most aftermarket system does not require intercooler. But we all know, that it never hurt to install one. Any boost above that, it will definately require intercooler.
I agree that air to water intercooler is better then air to air intercooler when you are dealing with high hp power and only if the design is right. That's why Porches stop using air to air intercooler and switch over the air to water system. Porches has been using air to air intercooler for years but now at 400 plus hp power, it no longer effective and so they switch over to air to water system.
In general, for small hp gain, the easiest way is air to air intercooler and that's what Mercedes used in the Slk 230 (boost peak at 6 psi) and many other factory car too. I'm not sure about the C32 and the Slk 32.
I did say that i'm not sure about Kleemann S/C. But anyway, in general. If you only run mild boost at 5 psi. most aftermarket system does not require intercooler. But we all know, that it never hurt to install one. Any boost above that, it will definately require intercooler.
I agree that air to water intercooler is better then air to air intercooler when you are dealing with high hp power and only if the design is right. That's why Porches stop using air to air intercooler and switch over the air to water system. Porches has been using air to air intercooler for years but now at 400 plus hp power, it no longer effective and so they switch over to air to water system.
In general, for small hp gain, the easiest way is air to air intercooler and that's what Mercedes used in the Slk 230 (boost peak at 6 psi) and many other factory car too. I'm not sure about the C32 and the Slk 32.
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Super Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 557
Likes: 1
From: San Diego
99' SLK 230 & 01' CLK 430
Driller,
I don't know who to believe now.
http://forums.mbnz.org/forums/r170/vthread.asp?messid=64824
I don't know who to believe now.
http://forums.mbnz.org/forums/r170/vthread.asp?messid=64824
Member
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 139
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From: Calgary, Alberta
2005 SLK 55
Breath Deep & Relax
Sorry for the delay in responding but I only look in every few days. Firstly, in reference to 'where I am from' please check my signature and you'll see the phrase 'Calgary, Alberta'. That would be in Canada. Secondly, I based my bold opinion only on that fact that it is indicated in the specifications of my 1999 SLK 230 Sport 5 Sp. Manual. Now...I've not been under the car nor have I visually identified all of the parts of my car. I usually spend my time driving (and washing) it. The only reason for my conclusion is based on the spec's. If I'm wrong, so is the spec sheet and I can only hope that I get a room with a lava view when I die.
I've attached said spec. sheet.
I've attached said spec. sheet.
Super Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 557
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From: San Diego
99' SLK 230 & 01' CLK 430
Driller,
All i can say is that my 1999 Slk 230 sport has an air to air intercooler. I know this because i also have another spare factory intercooler in my garage. There's also nothing in the manual that say anything about changing the intercooler liquid at an interval, like the coolant need to be change at every two yrs. I look today and could find where the intercooler reservoir bottle. Well, we might be both right because Canada model might be different then US.
All i can say is that my 1999 Slk 230 sport has an air to air intercooler. I know this because i also have another spare factory intercooler in my garage. There's also nothing in the manual that say anything about changing the intercooler liquid at an interval, like the coolant need to be change at every two yrs. I look today and could find where the intercooler reservoir bottle. Well, we might be both right because Canada model might be different then US.
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 204
Likes: 5
From: Ca
96 P993T, 00 E55, 09 SL63
Linh said:
"I agree that air to water intercooler is better then air to air intercooler when you are dealing with high hp power and only if the design is right. That's why Porches stop using air to air intercooler and switch over the air to water system. Porches has been using air to air intercooler for years but now at 400 plus hp power, it no longer effective and so they switch over to air to water system"
Linh:
Which Porsche are you talking about??? Even the newest Porsche 996TT or the 996 based GT2 still use air to air intercooler. Starting with the 996 series, Porsche switch to water cooled engine instead of the air/oil cooled 993 and older series. Yes, one of the reason of the switch from the air/oil cooled engine to the water cooled design is because of the maxing out of the air cooled engine technology. However the intercoolers on the current Porsche turbos still use the air to air intercooler system.
From a technical standpoint, water has a much better heat carrying capacity and better heat transfer property than air hence a better/higher efficiency but packaging air/air intercooler is also simpler and cheaper assuming the car has the space (larger surface area needed due to the lower efficiency). You can make an air/air IC to have the same capacity as the liquid/air IC by enlarging the IC radiator surface area.
"I agree that air to water intercooler is better then air to air intercooler when you are dealing with high hp power and only if the design is right. That's why Porches stop using air to air intercooler and switch over the air to water system. Porches has been using air to air intercooler for years but now at 400 plus hp power, it no longer effective and so they switch over to air to water system"
Linh:
Which Porsche are you talking about??? Even the newest Porsche 996TT or the 996 based GT2 still use air to air intercooler. Starting with the 996 series, Porsche switch to water cooled engine instead of the air/oil cooled 993 and older series. Yes, one of the reason of the switch from the air/oil cooled engine to the water cooled design is because of the maxing out of the air cooled engine technology. However the intercoolers on the current Porsche turbos still use the air to air intercooler system.
From a technical standpoint, water has a much better heat carrying capacity and better heat transfer property than air hence a better/higher efficiency but packaging air/air intercooler is also simpler and cheaper assuming the car has the space (larger surface area needed due to the lower efficiency). You can make an air/air IC to have the same capacity as the liquid/air IC by enlarging the IC radiator surface area.
Junior Member
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 70
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From: Beverly Hills
2017 C63 | 2018 E63
Originally posted by linh
I agree that air to water intercooler is better then air to air intercooler when you are dealing with high hp power and only if the design is right. That's why Porches stop using air to air intercooler and switch over the air to water system. Porches has been using air to air intercooler for years but now at 400 plus hp power, it no longer effective and so they switch over to air to water system.
I agree that air to water intercooler is better then air to air intercooler when you are dealing with high hp power and only if the design is right. That's why Porches stop using air to air intercooler and switch over the air to water system. Porches has been using air to air intercooler for years but now at 400 plus hp power, it no longer effective and so they switch over to air to water system.
The air/air intercooler is generally simpler in design, requires less maintenance, and usually offers a higher thermal efficiency at high speeds. The drawbacks are less thermal efficiency at low speeds (for obvious reasons), large space requirements, and higher boost pressure losses.
The water/air intercooler enjoys greater thermal thermal efficiency at low speeds and a roughly 14:1 heat transfer co-efficient when compared to air. However, to fully take advantage of the water's heat transfer capabilities, the water/air system must be engineered properly...if not, the water/air system isn't any better in exchanging heat from the intake charge as an air/air system. Secondly, the necessity for additional components such as a water pump and water reservoir creates a more complex heat exchange system, thereby potentially reducing it's reliability vis-a-vis the air/air system.
In any case, they both offer their advantages and disadvantages...I don't think one is better than the other, merely one is better suited for the job at hand. For all out racing, the air/air system is a better choice...for street purposes the water/air system can prove to a viable alternative...at least when designed and constructed properly.
Last edited by Samir; Jun 5, 2002 at 03:46 AM.
