okc329

Saw one at the dealer a couple of days ago. I can't understand who the potential buyers for this model are. This one was black on black so maybe an undertaker?

vraa

Oh it'll sell.
There are a ton of folks in the luxury van market just waiting to be tapped.
Not to call the R-Class a van, it's just so close to one.

cdiken

The price and configuration of the vehicle suggests OLDER buyers:

Price: in the $60's. Not exactly for young families with little home equity, even if they have high income the $ will be needed elsewhere, even though the R actually looks like a soccer taxi.

Younger people with that kind of $ for a vehicle will be looking more to say, an M3 or hotrod Audi or maybe an E55 if they have true class.

Configuration suggests a road-tripper/ grocery grabber vehicle. Most younger types are employed, so long trips mean airplanes, no time for sightseeing have to get back to the office.

Another clue is the marketing. For example, the "Rock the R" campaign on the Rolling Stones concert tour. Rolling Stones, need I say more about age group. There was a bomb scare at a Stones show in Charlottesville, and Jay Leno commented that terrorists have no shame, now they are attacking senior citzens.

vip-culture.com

wife and I looked at it and optioned it out...not worth it IMO...option for option it priced out 10k more than the new ML.

It's a nice idea, but i dont know how well a luxo van/crossover will sell...

AsianML

It's for people who don't want a minivan, but need the space of one.

JackStraw

Unforunately, it doesn't have the seating or the storage capacity of a minivan.

AsianML

It's a compromise.

EKaru

Compromise? What's the trade off? It looks like a minivan, doesn't have the versatility of one, has a cheaply made interior, and costs and arm and a leg... I see where cars, minivans, vans, SUVs, pick-ups, and crossovers (eg. Touareg, X5, ML, RX, MDX, and FX) fit in but grand tourers are for someone who hasn't a clue what they want.. I guess the reason for the rants in these last few threads is because I drove my friend's new Honda Odyssey and wondered where the extra $35K went into the R500....
Eric...

Nevada Jack

Eric...get over it...go buy the Odessey but stop justifying your potential purchase on the forum by bashing the R.

Many will buy it and many will not. It is here, it is for sale, it will be bought, and it will be enjoyed by those who do buy it.

I changed my mind for other reasons but still think it is a fine vehicle and has many features people are looking for.

AsianML

Yeah, you tell him!

JackStraw

I can tell you 3 places the extra $35K went.... all-wheel drive, better engine and transmission and a quieter, more comfortable ride. This may or may not be worth $35K, it depends on your point of view.

That said, the Odyssey Touring is pretty hard to beat for the money.

NY C32

First I saw the pictures and I thought WTF!?!

Then I saw it at the dealership and I thought WTF!?!

I saw one on the road tonight and I didn't think WTF... I thought what an ugly POS. I just don't get it and I find it plain out ugly. I honestly think that if I needed anything like this type of vehicle, I would buy a Town and Country.

carpersn

I have a Tahoe currently and cannot wait until my R arrives.
Obviously different strokes for different folks...i find it attractive, though not striking, and the interior is incredible. Having owned plenty of late-model W210s and W211's, i think the build quality is better than anything else MB has recently put out (save the new M)...the days of spare no expense raw materials are over, period. It seats my whole family, offers me a better driving experience than my Tahoe, and gets better mileage. Plus its a safety cage on wheels. I have to laugh that anyone feels strongly negative enough to bash-

Nevada Jack

To quote..."WTF"

Nevada Jack

I agree carpersn...it is a nice piece of work by MB and a real pleasure to drive.

CynCarvin32

Eric u dont have kids, a need to haul people or things so this car is clearly not for you. My sister is about to have her first child and it is exactly what she needs. Without the third row of seats in use the car holds a ton of junk, is very comfortable, is well built IMHO, and is a good idea. You need to realize who these cars are marketed towards. You as a young doctor has no need for it so of course you and your wife think it is pointess

Realize that no one wants to drive a honday or american mini van if they dont have to and people with decent income levels wont want to be stuck in a 25k people hauler. There is a market for this car but it not the biggerst market around. I think it is the only car in the segment so it will do very well. Sales fo the car are going VERY well so I doubt it will be a flop!

The R is far larger than every car u just listed so i venture to guess it carries a lot more "junk" than those SUV's. I personally hate most SUV's and this car does sit lower and drive better than the cars you mentioned. An ML63 is a interesting alternative though... hmmm. But again i have no need to haul people around and I dont need a junk mover so guess what I dont have any of those cars .

Most MB buyers dont sit back and penny pinch so i think it will do just fine -- just like the new ML!

MB Fanatic

I have an Odyssey and am on the waiting list for a new R500 (opted out of the R63 until a later time, I know Jack is dissapointed). Hands down this car will have more room and storage options than my Odyssey, not to mention is a hell of a lot faster, better looking, and far more comfortable.

EKaru

There are better options, like the Audi Q7... Better interior, better priced, bench seat for the 2nd row.. More people will consider an R-class two years down the road when they're going for $7-10K below sticker...
Eric..

Nevada Jack

Damn...now I have to change my plans for next summer. I was planning a trip over to Orange County and watch you take delivery on that new R63 in Titanium Gray..:-)

The R500 will more than give you a kick...enjoy it and lets see some pictures when it arrives. Offer the Odessey to Eric...he seems to like the lower line makers...lol

EKaru

Sorry Jack, I'm not as rich as you are to be able to spend $70K on minivans...
Eric..

Nevada Jack

If it is the price that bothers you, then why do you bash the features which in my opinion are not inferior, cheaply made, etc. If you think the R Class is overpriced then that is a good enough reason for not buying it. But you will not get the features or the quality in the Odessey that the MB will give you. As Jack Straw pointed out, the engine, the transmission and the quality of the ride are some of the extra cost but one of the biggest is probably the safety in driving a MB. The two cars are not equal Eric and if you want better quality you pay more money. There are reasons the Odessey (and the Audi Q7) are cheaper...you are the one who has to decide what those differences are and buy the one you think is the car for you.

If you had my money (which you greatly over estimate) would you then pay $70K regardless of the comments you have made regarding its makeup?

I hope you find the vehicle you are looking for and are happy with it once you get it.

EKaru

If this is about quality, where does Honda rank in comparison to MB? Have you read this Top Gear Article?

The tale is recalled by the chief executive of a dealership that sold Mercedes-Benz in London. His salesmen were lounging around the showroom when a small group of menacing-looking undesirables ambled in. They would like to take the AMG M-Class for an extended road test, they said. As the visitors were packing heat, a nervous salesman handed over the keys. The M-Class was never seen again. The chief executive later admitted, "I console myself with the certainty that, sooner or later, the car broke down."
This true anecdote epitomises a major challenge for the car maker with probably the best reputation in the world. Mercedes-Benz's rock-solid image is no longer matched by reality.
In any quality, reliability and customer satisfaction survey, it is generally an average performer, little better than cheaper marques that lack the same elevated status. Sometimes it is much worse. Volkswagen and Audi, two other well-regarded German brands, are invariably middling performers in surveys as well, though Porsches and BMWs are usually well-rated by their owners. Does Germany's fabled engineering expertise bear close scrutiny these days?
The stark disparity between admiration for a brand and the real issues involved in ownership is provided by a survey of over 38,000 members of ADAC (the German motoring organisation) by the AutoMarxx consultancy.
Asked to rank the image of car brands on the market, members put Mercedes firmly top, followed by BMW, Audi, VW, Porsche and Volvo in that order. No other brand was even close. Does one detect a touch of patriotism here? At the bottom, in worsening order, were Daewoo, Lancia, Rover, Subaru, Daihatsu and Suzuki.
However, the tables were turned upside down when members were asked to rate their ownership satisfaction. The top six were Japanese: Toyota, Subaru, Honda, Mazda, Nissan and Mitsubishi. And at the bottom of the chart? In descending order they were: Chrysler, Smart, Fiat, Volkswagen, Mercedes and Land Rover. There have been enough other surveys for Fiat's and Land Rover's positions not to be a surprise. They are the car world's equivalent of junk bonds. The survey's shock is to find Mercedes and Volkswagen competing with them for last place in a country that clearly holds its domestic products in the highest esteem.
While the reports by ADAC and other organisations confirm the superior manufacturing quality and reliability of Japanese brands, they raise serious question about the reputations of some German nameplates. They're not as good as the world thinks they are.



Germany's car makers produce a lot of beautiful, advanced cars that consumers around the world can't wait to buy. Sales of Audi, BMW, Mercedes and Porsche were at record levels last year. The prospects this year look equally good. The appeal is clearly much deeper than quality and reliability. The whole world would drive Toyotas if it wasn't. Design, performance, safety and residual values are important elements in the buying decision as well. And so, more particularly, is prestige. A Renault just won't cut it down at the golf club when a Mercedes-Benz can be bought for similar money.
But there is a weird dynamic in the market if Mercedes-Benz's reputation is still so high at a time when its quality and reliability are so in-different. Is the king wearing any clothes?
The trouble is not imagined. Mercedes-Benz plummeted from fifth overall in the 1997 initial quality survey carried out by JD Power & Associates in the United States to 15th last year. On longer-term reliability, JD Power's US ratings saw Mercedes plunge from top slot at the start of the Nineties to an embarrassing 26th place (out of 36) last year. Jurgen Hubbert, the head of Smart and Mercedes-Benz cars, acknowledged the issue at a conference in the United States earlier this year, when he said the aim was to return to the top of the quality charts by 2006. That's Yes Minister for admitting there's a problem now.
Hubbert said Mercedes has addressed the quality issues and, as each new model comes on to the market, the company will steadily return to its rightful position. At least that's the theory. Seven out of every 10 problems involved electronics, Hubbert said. "Whichever company is in the (technological) lead has the biggest problems," he commented. But Mercedes' problems were more extensive than that. It was simply too stretched to do the job properly.
In the late Nineties, the group embarked on an ambitious plan that totally reshaped its structure and scale. For the first time in its history, Mercedes began to develop new models to pre-determined budgets and timetables. Previously, it worked to what are called cost-plus principles, in which the customer pays for the cost plus profit margin. Cars appeared only when the engineers were satisfied they were right, which could be several months behind schedule. The philosophy all went horribly wrong with the 1991 S-Class and the arrival of much higher standards from other car firms, which made the change decades earlier.
When Mercedes eventually followed the lead, it was just not very good at it. Yet, at the same time, it initiated the development of a whole swathe of additional models, including the A-Class, M-Class and V-Class, together with more coupes and roadsters. The all-new Smart and Maybach projects were launched as well. And it built its first factory in the United States.
Meanwhile, Mercedes' parent group, Daimler-Benz, took control of Chrysler and then bought a major stake in Mitsubishi Motors. Unknown to Daimler, the affairs of both companies were unhealthy, to say the least; including product quality that was well below par. The acquisitions took - and still take - enormous tolls on Daimler management and finances. This was all time and money not spent on Mercedes, whose quality began to suffer as a result.
Like many political and military leaders, Daimler-Benz made the classic strategic error of advancing simultaneously on too many fronts.
These days, though, it is misleading to think in purely nationalistic terms. The global nature of the international motor industry has rendered that concept obsolete.
For example, many of the models contributing to Toyota's number one position in Germany's first JD Power customer satisfaction index were made in Britain and France. The Smart that was the leading 'German' model in the Consumers' Association's reliability survey is assembled in France. The leading 'German' model in the Top Gear/Experian analysis was the BMW Z3, which was made in the US.


Many BMWs, Mercedes and Volkswagens sold in this country are built in South Africa, not Germany. It's not a secret, but none of the companies goes out of their way to explain that fact to its customers. And they, in turn, are happy to believe they're buying German quality.
Elsewhere, we buy Volkswagens from Mexico and Slovakia, Mercedes from Spain and the United States, Vauxhalls from Poland and Australia, Suzukis from Hungary and India and Renaults from Turkey and Slovenia. In the near future, Europeans will have Hondas built in China and Americans will be able to buy Saabs made in Japan and Ohio.
In other words, brand is more important than country of origin when determining car quality. The clever trick by companies like Toyota and Honda is to achieve the same, high manufacturing standards wherever they make cars.
In reality, German firms lost the quality crown to the Japanese manufacturers years ago. The evidence has been public since at least 1981, when Dave Power published his first analysis of car quality in the United States. Since then, a succession of surveys by JD Power and other organisations around the world have regularly revealed how much better made and more reliable the average Japanese car is.
The regular publication of these surveys made public what was previously one of the industry's best kept secrets: comparative data about car manufacturing quality, reliability standards and customer satisfaction. The beneficiaries are all car buyers everywhere, because the effect was to raise levels across the whole industry. For example, the standards of a French or Korean car today are better than those of a Japanese one a couple of decades ago.
The surveys vary by definition, but their results display certain common themes. While, in general, Japanese brands rated best, Mitsubishi, in particular, has some catching up to do. German firms are often only middling performers, though Porsche and BMW owners usually rate their experiences highly. Volkswagen, in spite of its great reputation for solidity, is often below Renault, which has a long-standing reputation for unreliability.
Just as oddly, Volkswagen invariably finishes below the same group's entry-level brand, Skoda. The Octavia finished third overall in the Top Gear survey compared with 106th (out of 137) for the more expensive Golf model on which it is based. Consumers may one day begin to wonder about the wisdom of paying more for a product that is quantifiably inferior.
Fords tend to do better than the Vauxhalls (and Opels) of its big American rival, GM. South Korean and Swedish firms are generally average, but Italian and French brands tend to languish near the bottom of any table.
All too frequently, though, that table is propped up by a certain four-wheel-drive manufacturer from Solihull. Just like some German brands, Land Rover appears to enjoy a charmed existence in the showrooms.

MB Fanatic

My 2003 Accord has terrible issues. My 2004 TL had many damn problems the dealer could not resolve either. I finally got a good deal on a 2005 TL and jumped on it as they bought back the 2004.

If you are trying to tell me that Honda is more reliable, then save it. Honda/Acura have had some serious issues with their cars such as:

1) Transmission failures
2) serious build quality problems
3) Electrical problems (Sound systems dying, and other things with ABS)

Some Hondas are made in Canada, some in Japan, some in America. I dont give a **** where the car is made as long as it has great build quality and is flawless.

Secondly, the buyout of Chrysler was good for DaimlerChrysler. Look at Chrysler now, they have a damn good product line and it sure as hell is doing well. They are inflicting great damage on Ford and GM. Lets face it the merger will pay off in the long run. Now that Dieter Zietsche has taken over at Mercedes Benz, things will change and the days of cost cutting and decontenting are over Eric.

Nevada Jack

Eric...I don't give a hoot about Honda, Toyotas, Lexus, Acura and the rest. I owned an Acura Vigor (and a bunch of other so called competitive makes) and that was enough for me! You can print all the articles you want but my almost 30 years of driving MB is what determines my choices and has convinced me what real quality is...not JD Powers and those jokers who manipulate the public opinion. I loved my Z3, I loved my Jag VP, I loved my Volvo's, but they were always second cars to my primary MB.

Go buy your Honda's and Audi's or whatever you seem to think is a better "deal" than a MB and is on top of the latest quality survey. If you are happy fine. In the meantime I will drive my "Benz" knowing that I am safe as I can possibly be and enjoy the "perks" that come with ownership of one of the best cars in the world.

There is an intangible plus that comes when you own a MB. I hope it hits you someday so buying a new car in the future will not be such a troubling experience.

EKaru

I'm sick and tired of all the problems I've had with my year old C55... Transmission connector failing TWICE and series of electrical issues which were never resolved by the service dept.