trust

on their 560's? How's the ride quality? What else can I do to better the suspension?

trust

so i guess no one has em. then, i'll tell you guys how it goes.

trust

almost a member.... okay.

trust

just let me ***** up my own thread. let me be.

560300

I prefer the H&R there are two different models available one with the hydraulic suspension and one without. The H&R spring rate is more progressive and offers a more controlled ride.

They reduced my cars height by about 1.5 inches my 560 SEC I run the 18in AMG R128 wheels.

560300

Here are two images of my lowered SEC.

I purchased the springs from Howbar Motorsports at a very good price around $275 for the.

H&R Sport Spring part numbers are 52759 with self leveling system and 29559 without self leveling system.

I retained the hyraulic leveling system using the 52759. I am very satisfied with the modification. This is a great handling improvement.

Thunderbone

Your car looks great. I've switched out the self leveling suspension on my '91 SEC because I grew weary of replacing accumulators, so now my suspension is the same set up as an SEL. I've never been happy with how high the car sits and my mechanic, a Mercedes purist, tells me I will compromise the ride of the car if I lower it. I have a 420 SEL and a 240D and I have left their ride height stock, so I am in unknown territory

I lowered my '87 Carerra from the factory ride height, got a set of BBS wheels made specfically for this model and it looked and handled much better--but this is pretty usual for Porsche drivers. I've talked to a few owners of SEC's who lowered their cars by cutting the springs, which I think is the wrong way to go. Since you got new springs to change your ride height I expect that the ride quality would be similar to the way the car was with stock springs, right? So you don't have to gingerly cross railroad tracks so your wheels don't hit the fenders..

560300

I too was told when I first started researching lowering the car that it would compromise the ride. I am very happy with the H&R Spring modification. It would be the first modification I would have doen if I bought another SEC. The H&R springs are something like 30% stiffer than stock and 1.5 in lower. I never liked the height or the sloppy handling of the stock SEC. The car has very solid handling now especially with the larger tires. I did replace the acculmulators and installed new Bilsteins at the same time. I believe this is the way the car should have been built in the first place.

I would not recommend cutting the springs, this will lower the car but will not give you the 30% stiffer ride.

You may have to play with the rubber shim cups which sit atop the springs. I believe there are three different sizes. I opted for the mid size cup height I believe this is 13mm. This provided the clearance for the larger tires without having to roll the fenders.

Thunderbone

560300:

You mention that the lowering springs (I would never cut springs) give a "30%
stiffer ride" than stock...by this do you mean that there is 30% less up/down/lateral travel when you travel over a bump? Is the dampening effect diminished and the car tranmits more road noise? I want it both ways, the 'S' ride and the better handling, will I get that?

560300

I do not believe the ratio is one to one, meaning thirty percent stiffer equals thirty percent less travel. I greatly prefer the ride of the H&R's over the stock spring. I have not noticed any increase in road noise. I believe the H&R's have progessive spring rate meaning as the load increases the spring force increases.

Thunderbone

The springs were $275 for the set, correct? Also, how much did it cost to put in?

560300

I checked my records last night. The springs were $266.50 from the HowBar Website. They actually shipped from the Off Road Warehouse in Cal. I also purchased the new Bilsteins at the same time for $147.46 for the pair. I also purchased a couple of extra cups from Rustys, so I would have a full range of the rubber shims.

To have the springs, the shocks, the cups, new hydraulic fluid and adjust the rake of the car was $420.

From what I had researched, the removal and replacement of the springs is not an undertaking for the home mechanic. There is a specific spring compressor that should be used, and my understanding is the task is one of the more dangerous modifications to perform. More than one individual mentioned the possibility of losing a limb.

So for the rent of a spring compressor plus $320, and another weekend with my kids, I didn't have to think twice about taking it to the shop for the work.

560300

Here is my lowered suspension next to a stock SEC. You can clearly the 1.5 in drop.

Thunderbone

The car looks so much better with the lowered height...there is just too much room above the arches..I had a friend replace springs in his Mustang and a real scare when a spring popped out, shot across the garage like and rocket propelled grenade (spring propelled grenade?) and put a hole in his wall--so there was no way I would do that.

So $320 covered the spring install, is that right? Everything seems to be more expensive here in California and I wanted to get an idea of what I was in for.What is involved in setting the rake...are you following the stock rake angle and dropping the car, or is the car dropped more in the back to have a flatter stance.

560300

Mine were installed for the $420, this included replacing the front shocks since it was all done the same day I do not have a breakdoiwn of just the R&R of the springs, but I have heard of people getting it done for $220. I believe it bills out at a three hour job at $70 that's $210.

What I meant by the cost to rent a spring compressor for a day ($100) plus the $320 additional, it was not worth attemping it yourself. Let the pro's do it.

The rake or angle forward was adjusted easily and dialed in with the hydraulic self-leveling suspension valve. This is right in front of the rear diff. You can simply add additional fluid to the rear shocks to increase the angle or release more fluid to set it level. I have a slight forward rake.

I think this is personal taste. Since I believe you mentioned you have removed the self-leveling system. I believe you would have to adjust the angle through the rubber shim cups which sit on top of the springs.

You may want to have a set of them before you begin the work. There are small nubs on the sides of the cops so you can determine which cups are in place. There can be one, two, or three nubs. I believe they are in 5mm increments with the two nub being 13mm this is the one I used on the front springs, I used the old cups on the back since I new I could adjust the angle through the self-leveling system.

They must remove the back seats to install the springs. So without the self-leveling feature you may have to swap the shims a couple of times. This involves hoisting and compressing the spring, replacing the shim and then placing the car back on the shop floor to get he full load on the spring. I would make sure you got it the way want before you have the mechanic replace seats.

They had to hoist mine up and down three time before I was satisfied with the cars' stance.

I believe the rear springs for a car with the self-leveling feature are larger in diameter. Since your car had this feature and you had it removed I believe you would still install the 52759 spring set. You should double check with the applications engineer at H&R, I found them very helpful.

Good luck, I think you will really like the difference.

Thunderbone

Where did you have this work done? I'm getting prices from Mercedes specialists that want $300 just for changing out springs..also, do you have any problems with speed bumps or driveways with the lowered ride height.

560300

$300 does not seem too bad for Cali.

German Car Services performed the work on my vehicle. I have used them for a little over seven years, an excellent shop, I highly recommend them. They are located in Scottsdale, Arizona. The owner has a gorgeous 560SEC with the same H&R spring set up.

I have had no problems at all, on speed bumps, there is no ride degradation. I have recently installed an OEM Skid Plate below the oil pan.

I have never hit the pan, I did have a friend who tore a three inch gash in his oil pan on a Fiat Spider and fried his engine. He was doing fifty over an Arizona drainage system. Baisically a concrete ditch running across the road to divert water. Cheap insurance in my opinion.

Thunderbone

You mention that you have used the same shop for 7 years, is that how long you have had the 560? I'm curious about the maintenance costs and would like to know the frequency and type of maintenance you have done.

I have had a 300SD, a 300CD and for the past ten years a 420SEL and a 240D. The SEL has 452,000 miles on it and the maintenance has not been a big deal. I'm hoping I will have the same luck with the 560, but I see reports of 'high maintenance' for these cars. Mine has 94K miles on it. I just replaced the timing chain and rails and you know the rear suspension story. My oil pan was dented, so I replaced it. Is the guard you installed an MB part, that sounds like a great idea. My radiator is original, but intact, no cracks at the neck.

560300

The Skid plate is a Mercedes OEM componets and bolts to locations already in place on the chassis. I do not know the part number. I was told it was standard on the Euro and AMG models.

I had a 560 SEL for 4 and a half years before purchasing the 560 SEC, 2 and a half years ago.

They are two very different experiences.

The SEL I primarily purchased for my wife and kids. She later decided, she prefered my Toyota Four Runner because of ease of strapping the kids in and out and loading groceries. I purchased the SEL from a used car dealer.

It had several problems over the years, beginning with the transmission, then fuel injectors, then I replace the nitrogen cells with a parts purchased from Perfromance Products, then the proportioning valve, then the nitrogen cells again which I had replaced with genuine Meredes parts the second time around. You get the picture. All-in-all this was my first Mercedes and I really did enjoy driving the car. I was able to try out a few mechanics before finding German Car Services. The owner at German Car had and still has a gorgeous black 560 SEC which I had always coveted.

The SEL was hit while parked at a friends house, and totaled. I got a decent price for the car, and was now able to find an SEC of my own.

I purchased the SEC from a private seller with all records from delivery date to Phoenix Motor Cars in '89. The car had been pamper all its life. This car was a dream car for me since College. So I really do not mind spending money on the SEC. Since I purchased it I replaced the fuel injectors, the radiator, brake booster line for safety sake, the drivers seat springs and the timing chain as normal maintenance.

I have have the following performance modifications completed. I lowered the car, added new Bilsteins Shocks, added the AMG R129 18" Chrome Wheels with Michelin Pilot Sport tires. I added the first gear start module from Bergwerks, with a Euro Shift gate. I have replaced the US 238 hp engine with a low mileage 300 hp Euro engine, all the new engine parts I had purchased were transferred to the Euro Engine. I scrapped the US exhaust for the Euro headers and down tubes. Replaced the stock rotors with EBC dimpled rotors and green stuff brake pads. Replaced the US headlights and wipers with a full Euro Set up. Replace the steering wheel with a new old stock. Painted the lower panels and blacked out the grill. Basically in that order.

I have read about individuals on the MBcoupes website that are on their third timing chain and have over 410,000 miles on their car much like your experience with the 420 SEL.

When I purchased the SEL it had less miles on it than the SEC, but when the mechanics changed the timing chain they said it almost looked new internally.

Judjing by my experience, as with any classic car, it boils down to the owner and previous owner and how well they stay on top of things like fluid changes and normal maintence. My SEL was not cared for very well, my SEC has been and will continue be be well pampered.

Thunderbone

Bummer on the SEL. My 420 just refuses to die..my mechanic told me a while back that it won't be long before the catalytic takes a dump and said I am at the place of determining just how long I want to keep putting money in the car or, the Smog police in California may give me the thumbs down...so that got me on the track of getting an SEC and, like you, I've lusted for this car ever since I first saw it. Since I had the Carerra, it seemed silly to get another sports car
(translation, my wife put her foot down) but with the SEL teetering, I had my chance. I had no idea I would find a car in a month of looking. A women had bought the SEC late in October of 2001 from it's original owner as a present for her father. Two weeks after she bought the car her father wasn't feeling well and in February he died. She was so traumatized that she parked the car in a garage for two years. I was the first one to see the car and I knew right away this was 'the one'. It was perfect. Midnight Blue and Palomino interior. So now I have 3 MB's, a Porsche, a Harley, and a wife (of two years) who thinks I'm a car freak. She says I need gearhead therapy.

Where did you find a Euro motor and what kind of $$ did this whole conversion end up costing. I turned my 3.2 liter '87 Carerra into a 3.4. New exhaust, cams, flowed intake, hi performance springs, ti retainers, 260HP in a car that weighs 2650 pounds. The whole adventure was around $10K. I think it was worth every penny, although it took 14 months to complete...but a lot of that was me changing my mind from a valve job to what I ended up with.

How long did it take to do all the mods on your SEC? What kind of torque do you now have? Do you have any smog issues to overcome in AZ?

560300

My wife thinks I need therapy too, but when she married me I was a car guy and still am. She said she would rather have a car guy than a TV sports guy who watched football all weekend.

I have a ' 65 T Bird Convertible project car as well.

It sounds as if you got a great deal on your SEC. My SEL was the same color combination.

I have done all the modifications over two years. First year I had the suspension work completed, new wheels and tires, first gear start and sourced and purchased all the headlight and wiper components. this was about $4800, with the wheels and tires taking the lions share at $3000k.

The second year I had the engine swapped and the headlights and wipers installed and the panels painted.

The euro engine torque spec is 325@3750 rpm and 300 hp@5000. My mechanic imported two engines one for his car and one for mine. I had the down tubes made by TimeValve in CT. They fit perfectly

I ran the car with the US Spec exhaust for a month. While Timevalve was bending the pipe and the Euro Headers were at Jet Hot Coating. It made quite a difference when I finally got it all together.

The engine swap took about two weeks and was $5200, $2500 for the engine and the rest in labor and incidental parts.

The two front sections of Euro exhaust were about $750 in stainless.

The painting of lower body panels, mirrorbacks and door inserts was about $1800

Yes, we do have emission control in AZ. TimeValve constructed a Cat for 7.5 liter engine. So the exhaust would flow freely while still passing emmisions. It is right on the limit right now.

I absolutely love this car, as it sits right now. I have driven a 911 and several other "sports cars", but in my opinion this car with its' current set up is the best from the cars I have had the pleasure of driving and I can still get my three kids in comfortably.

I want to purchase a BMW 850csi, next year if the market go right.

Have fun with your cars and don't take it too seriously.

Thunderbone

Your car sounds like the perfect vehicle: sports car performance with the S-ride, seriously! You got a lot of bang for the buck on the motor .

What, exactly, is 'first gear swap' ?

Did you have to remap the ECU on the Euro motor to dial in the changes in flow?

And I am guessing that there was nothing wrong with the original motor, you just saw something that was too good to pass up...

560300

Most Mercedes Start out in second gear unless you floor the gas pedal and engage the kick down. You may have noticed a slight hesitation or sluggishness, when taking off from a stop light or making a turn from a stop sign. Bergwerks in California sells an electronic module that can be installed in the car to over-ride the stock set up and allow the car to start in first gear all the time.

You can manually force the car to start in first gear. At a full stop shift to the lowest postion in the gate and the push toward the passenger seat. You should feel an audible click. Them move the shifter back to the drive postion. The car will now start out in first gear rather than second.

The Bergwerks kit comes with a switch to select between first or second gear starts. I was able to obtain a Euro Shift Gate from a New Zealand Mercedes mechanic I met on ebay. I had the switch wired into the Sport or Ecomony Switch on the Euro Shifter for a stock appearance.

My understanding is there is no problem with the ECU's for this type of swap from September of '87 on. I believe there may be some issues for earlier vehicles.

I had read about another SEC owner having his US 560 rebuilt to the Euro Spec by Metric Motors, and was very interested in peforming a similar swap to my car. I prefered an original factory built HV (means "Hoch verdichtet" - high compression) Mercedes engine with low miles to a rebuild.

My US engine was in perfect shape. My mechanic swapped my US 560 into a 420 SEL.

raysmbz

Hi there,

Where did you purchased your 5.6 EURO engine ?
Is it new or refurbished ?
I have a 88 560 SEC US, with exhaust mods, I put in a TimeValve stainless exhaust and a REMUS muffler. Also
put in the first gear switch form BERGWERKS.
I also lowered ( installed HR springs, kept the self leveling)
with 18 AMG wheels and tires.
Happy with the car, but compare to 560 EURO it's night and day difference.
I happened to test drove a 6.0 SEC AMG and it was awesome. So I think I will be happy with 5.6 Euro.

Thanks.

Thunderbone

I've often used first gear in the 420 in stop and go traffic. I would manually shift from first to second and then to drive, I never realized I had the click and go.
Is the shift gate you got from the New Zealander a linear shift pattern instead of the click-to-the-right deal? Can you post a picture? Did you install the Bergwerks unit?

I know what your saying about the somewhat slow launch..although here in California, where running red lights rampant, I always take a slow take-off...I put a 300CD into a light pole going 25 MPH when a guy ran a red light. The car was totaled, I walked home.The ambulance crew that got called out were incredulous. The next car was the 420. Go big, I figured.

Going with the factory-built hot rod motor is the way to go, fewer bugs to work out and much quicker. So did your mechanic peddle the old motor, or was all part of the deal? The deal you got on the Euro motor was incredible.