CE750

what price difference?

The former (Proper Bentley) was close to $400,000, the new VW Bentley is $190-$200,000 or about $20K more than the top of the line S65..

UKThom

by the looks you pay a lot more for s class mercs

also in the UK there are not many orginal bentleys every gets theirs customised by mulliner.

Once you add that up, ends up quite a big gap.

CE750

What does an S65 sell for in the UK? and a VW Bentley?

Eitherway.. the new Bentley is about half the price of the older models that were 100% British.

UKThom

Flying Spur is £120k - thats the base model, will have to give a mate a call on extras i know in the GT to have it done nicely to your spec about 20-50k extra

Merc S65 without extras cheapest I have seen is £90k

so fully spec'd your looking at about 50k difference

CE750

If we're talking UK Pounds, that's significant..

odd however, as here in the US a S65 is about 170K and a loaded Bentley is about $200.. last I saw.

UKThom

yeah thats British Pounds

TheTwins

How can you say without a sweat ? it takes like 2 minutes to reach it, but nonetheless its impressive, that one time a year you ever want to go that fast

I will always lean towards the S class, i like the more "hi-tech" interior compared to the "old-english" in the Bentley.

Just my 5c.

//Nick

Mmmm

Current S65 w220 (612bhp) will supposedly hit 212mph, it weighs the same as an SL65 but has better aero dynamics.

The bentley is slower accelerating and slower round a circuit than an S/CL55 komp (493bhp) and they are only slightly slower at hit 196 mph

I didn't drive but looked at one of the first Bentley Spurs, uk retail £125k loaded cancelled order, not bad value as the poverty spec S65 was £142,750 about $210k new (hehe i got mine 2nd hand for near half that)

The new S63 (510bhp) should have the bentley licked in all the dynamic areas, but perhaps topspeed, ride, handling, acceleration, economy, etc will all be better.

I had a short test in a Conti Gt, it was nice but the ride in particular wasn't too great, felt good to get back in the S55 I had then, more agile, better ride and more responsive.

It's all down to taste, both great cars, but if you don't consider looks or badge snobbery the s63's more accomplised .

PS. as said above "new" bentleys are seen as "bling" in the UK, 22" inchers and chrome spinners, simply not cool at all old chap :p

naadp

Maybe it's the badge snobbery in me, but I can't see myself paying $170k (S65) for a car that's available for $65k (S350). The resale values seem to reflect the same opinion.

CE750

Here we can agree... but there is an effect on very high priced cars that always will cause their resale to be worse than lower priced cars... It's a social effect that is predicated on the FACT that the majority of buyers for very high priced cars are not just "well off" like most of us, but rather, "filthy rich" and as such don't buy used cars often...

You're hard pressed to find a truly wealthy individual who will seek a 2 year old Bentley to save money.. he'll just have his staff find him a new one and have it delivered. I spent a lot of my life flying very high net worth people, and I've seen them on their cell phones instructing people to "Dump" their 1 or two year old Merc CL55, or Bentley Azure, etc.. (many times with but a few thousand miles on it) so they can get the newest version.. etc..

Therefore the second hand market for these cars is limited to people who can "barely" afford those cars, and the liquidity of this market isn't the same as that for a Lexus, Mercedes E, or Audi A6.. let alone Honda Accord, or Toyota Camery..

Just think about it... resale value is meaningless for people at those rungs of success.

naadp

I think the resale value is so high on the CGT because of availability and perception. It's a nearly 6 month wait to get a new CGT from the time you order it, and usually 2-3 months before you can even get a slot to order one. So, if you want to have it NOW, preowned is probably the only way to go. I fully expect the CFS will go the same way.

It doesn't matter which S-class you buy, it'll always be seen as a grocery getter -- the same car everyone else on your block owns. They're the west coast Ford Taurus. Even in LA, I haven't seen very many Bentleys, and hence the perception of value remains high.

nyca

VW has alot of excess manufacturing capacity because of the Phaeton implosion. they will use some of it to make more Spurs, because the waiting list is so long. But where it really gets interesting, is if they decide to build a "baby spur" to compete directly with the S class in the 80-90K range.

blume

I have one, it is way too big for any "trail". Diesel? in a truck? being better for off road? -no, off roading is for vehicles that are light in weight. the lighter the vehicle and the wider and taller the tires the better for off road.

blume

sorry to get off topic. i still like the bentley better...

Mr.PS

Both the Bentley and the new S-class are phenomenal cars. I am not a very big fan of the new Flying Spur, why? Well let's start off with the fact that it looks almost identical to the A8 and Phaeton on the interior. There is very little that differentiates both vehicles, except for badges and exterior appointments. The overall shape, look, and feel is identical. I loved the Arange-T, and I hope that Bentley still continues to produce the Arange for as long as they can. The new S65 is one of the hottest sedans next to the Arange T that I have yet to see. The interior, exterior, and engine make it more then a competitor to the sedan market.

As for the comments about off-road, I happen to be a very big off-road enthusiast, I own both a 06 Range Rover, and a Jeep Grand Cherokee Limited (WJ). Please don't use the word off-road and Chevy in the same sentence because you are making your self look stupid. Chevy trucks and their mediocre independent front suspension and leaf spring rear suspension are handicap off-road. They are great trucks, but most certainly not manufactured, nor intended to ever go off-road. A solid axle vehicle like the G500, or Jeep Grand Cherokee would walk circles around any Chevy off-road. The Range Rover is one of the most impressive off-road vehicles currently in production. It lacks front and rear locking differentials like the G500, but it more then makes up for it with it's cross linked air suspension capable of a 800+ RTI ramp score.

As for what makes a great off-road vehicle. What makes an off-road vehicle is this: Solid Axles(or a cross linked air suspension like the RR), proper tires, locking differentials, a transfer case with a low crawl ratio, good ground clearance, and solid underbody protection. Diesel is great off-road because Diesel engines make a great amount of torque at low rpm's. Torque is a must off-road, it is even better when it is available at low rpm's. The lower the rpm and the higher the torque the less wheel spin you are likely to have.

CCE750, your logic is flawed. The 92-01 Jeep Cherokee (XJ) is a great vehicle off-road. It is relativly light, has solid axles, and has some of the most aftermarket support avaliable for any Jeep.

The Hummer H1 is not good off-road, despite what everyone says. It is to big, the suspension can not articulate, and ground clearance is very low. The H1 was not designed for serious off-road (rock climbing, jungle trails, wooded trails) The vehicle was designed to carry heavy equipment and troops across the desert, and across Northern Europe.

If you guys want to talk off-road, please, stop by www.exotixboard.com and visit the trucks and SUV forum. We have plenty of good debates about High End luxury capable SUV's (range rover, g500, Jeep GC) I love having a friendly and mature discussions about off-road, and off-road vehicles.

CE750

I wasn't referring to the Jeep XJ.. but the Grand Cherokee.. which is a unibody vehicle not suitable for heavy duty off road.

As for the H1 being a "not good off road" vehicle.. I apologize in advance if fail to contain my laughter here, sorry ... but I spend 4 years in the US Army (1989-93), a lot of that in the field (both in Germany, with heavy clay, mud, rocks.. AND in the desert).

In all seriousness, I drove/gunned the M1A1 tank (extremely capable off road vehicle in it's own right) for a better part of this time, but I also drove the H1 as a Brigade Commanders Driver in the field for a 30 day maneuver, as well as numerous other situations over the 4 years (probably some 2000 miles of serious off roading) and I can tell you first hand.. that vehicle can GO ANYWHERE period. We did things in that vehicle that exceeded our own personal capacities for reasonable comfort such as high speed over semi-dried mini mud dunes that made a ride so rough it shook everything not tightly strapped down out of the vehicle... we took sideways inclines that cause tanks (12' wide) to flip on their backside.. with nocked down 20" tree trunks littering the mud.. we went down the face of a rocky hillside that a mountain goat would have given second consideration! !the 4 fully-independant Rockwell drive-axles (extreme articulation) on the H1 are second to no suspension design on the "Civilian" market for durability, and are impossible to find on any other vehicle... The military looked closely at Jeeps' CJ produces as a possible alternative to the Hummvee, and there was NO comparison in performance.

As an additional anecdote.. my good friend here in Arizona bought a used H1 to take into the desert for off roading... he has a group of friends with everything from Jeeps, to Land Rover Defenders, and all yield to him as the king in off-road ability. There is the H1, and then there are others... trust me. Don't confuse the H2 with the H1, please.

ClayJ

Awwww CE750...now see what you went and made me do?

Here is THE King of On/Off-Road (in case you all were wondering) -- and it just happens to be a MBZ::

CE750

I would probably not doubt that this is a superior off road vehicle to the H1, but it's also SIGNIFICANTLY larger, and even though the H1 hardly qualifies as a personal road vehicle, this SURELY doesn't!

absent

How did we end up comparing utility trucks in a thread of Bentley vs S-Class???!!!

ClayJ

You are absolutely correct...and this is a thread on the Bentley and the S-class...but sometimes I just can't help myself...sorry.....

naadp

In other news...

I wonder how the Bentley (Touareg Based) SUV will compare off road to the upcoming GL class?

absent

That idea was killed on arrival by the Bentley management....

naadp

Thank God.

Though a lot of people don't know that they actually DID make an SUV called the Dominator.

CLFREAK

Boy, what a legacy of opinion left since I started this thread 3 months ago!

In any case, I wanted to respond to Fr0zen's commentary re the comparisons between the new S-class and Bentley FS, the original issue at hand.

You bring up many salient points - particulary, the similarities between the Phaeton and the FS - which have been well-opined in previous posts on this thread.

The bottom line question though, despite such similarities and the so-called but well-observed lack of "Bentleyesque" distinction or road presence of the post-VW Bentleys, is , once again, which of the two rides WILL BE BETTER-RESPECTED, automatically GET THE TOP VALET SPOT, and will have better RESALE VALUE. We all know which car we will see of more on the road; that's a given (On ANY given day here in Vegas, I see an average of a half-dozen S-classes).

That was my purpose for starting the thread to begin with.

Mr.PS

The H1 is great for what it was intended for. That is Carrying heavy equipment across the Desert, and across Northern Europe. It was never intended for serious rock climbing. You said it your self "high speed driving in mud pits, serious slopes". The H1 does very well in those types of situations it's very wide and it's IFS/IRS suspension setup functions well in those types of situations. However, the front and rear independent suspension doesn't articulate! If you know what that means off-road you would understand why the H1 is never a top choice amongst avid off-roaders. The only people who support the vehicle is those who spent the ridiculous amount of money for one and are then surprised when a Grand Cherokee or Wrangler passes them on the trail with ease. Independent suspensions do not articulate. Articulation is an absolute must off-road. Solid axles are always the choice off-road. There are only two independent suspensions on the market currently available of producing extreme flex and that is the Toureg and Range Rover. Those two vehicles pneumatically cross link to simulate a solid axle.

Here is a great demonstration video of how well the H1 articulates...
video:http://videos.streetfire.net/Player....0-25BEF7B3BAEB

Here is also a shot of Independent vs. Solid Axles (same vehicle, same rock, different axles)


As for the Jeep Grand Cherokee, it is more then capable of extreme off-road. Far more capable then any H1 has ever been. Of course I am not talking about a stock Jeep Grand Cherokee. Even in stock form it is one of the most capable 4x4's out there. The uni-body is not a limiting factor at all with the Grand Cherokee. I have never seen a broken or bent uni-body Grand Cherokee on the trails or on any enthusiast’s forum.