MB Fanatic

One who thinks that an S550 has lesser materials than an E is sadly in need of help. The fit and finish on the S is the best in the industry IMO, doors close with a solid thunk, and have some of the best leather I have seen in an MB. Needless to say a SWB S450 is not needed IMO, now give us a SWB S550 and yes it will compete with the 750, A8, and LS460, however, the most common 750's are the LWB along with A8L.

TeutonicCarFan

IMO I don't think that the S should be offered in SWB, or the LS for that matter. I feel that the flagship sedans should all be LWB and I know there will be a lot of disagreement about this because people love their right to choose (and buy a less expensive car). When I think of an S/7series/LS I think big, long, and luxurious. I think that there are many people who agree too though, because when I drive around town most 7 series cars I see are the 'L' variant. I can not even come up with a reason to get a SWB car besides the price. I think that a LWB looks better, rides better, and exudes luxury...

TeutonicCarFan

LOL, it is funny that you posted your post while I was making mine and we have the same opinion (for the most part).

vraa

Liar. Soft touch.

Nevada Jack

If you had not said this I think you had a very solid response...but this statement blows your entire statement. I owned a '98 E320 Wagon and a '03 E320 Sport Sedan. Well my '06 S430 put my '98 to shame quality wise and my S550 is so far ahead of them both that you can't even compare them. Are you sure you have looked at the S550? Because if you have you have missed a great deal in your examination.

And don't look for a S450 too soon...the new facelifted E550 just got rave reviews from C&D and a few other media sources...and at around $65K loaded it will give the LS 460 all it can handle. You do not have to be concerned about quality in the latest lines of MB...the GL, the R, the ML, the new facelifted E Class and certainly with the new S...quality is not to be of concern.

Now put on your glasses and take another look at the S550, take it for a ride and then try the LS460...I think I will know where you will come out...

AsianML

MB is trying too hard to appeal to the masses....How mant more models and trim levels do we honestly need?

vraa

Easily, but they are in a different class. When it was the LS430 the W211 was closer, but not they are just too far apart. Perhaps LS460 SWB.

E550 is the mini beast.

Nevada Jack

I would equate what I read about the new E550 with the SWB LS460...some fancier gadgets but as far as performance and ride...MB leads. Wait until that E63 gets it feet on solid ground here...there will be plenty of price competition without MB having to bring out a S450 to survive...:-)

vraa

E63 I don't think will ever get solid ground -- at least in my eyes.
We'll just have to wait for the W212 to come out and see how that is, but in the end the LS is still the S class competitor.

I cannot wait to see what extras the LS600 will hav.

pmb600

Personally I wouldn't be opposed to a SWB S-Class. I prefer sedans even though I rarely have people to cart around and it would be nice to have a slightly smaller S-Class available for those who just want all the features and style of the S without all the backseat room.

In all fairness though, let me point out, I'm not ready to buy an S-Class long or short at this point in my life. I should wait until I'm at least 30 lol

MB Fanatic

alright pmb600, how old are you? 29? I think the new S has character that appeals to all buyers regardless of age, just look how athletic and sporty it looks in the AMG package.

But as NevadaJack said, the LS460 is much more comparable to the E550, and the E550 is one hell of a buy when fully loaded, its quite cheap compared to the LS460.

Nevada Jack

You may be right...

One thing is the h at the end of the 600...I am not a fan of Hybrids and testing is showing the economy and green value may all be hype. Cars are not getting the predicted mpg and the disposal of batteries is causing some real hurt with the environmental movement. Also, the long term effect of battery power using todays technology is unknown and how about replacement cost if you want to keep the car a long time.

I think clean diesels will surpass the hybrid once it is accepted by the US consumer...and as usual MB will lead in this innovation also.

TeutonicCarFan

I think as far as price is concerned the LS/E550 can be compared, as far as the car itself I would consider the Eclass in the GS segment?

MB Fanatic

Teutonic, The GS is certainly more comparable to the E, however I am not quite sure what lexus is trying to accomplish with the LS460 SWB. Are they trying to go after the 750i, or A8? If they are its a dumb move, given that more of the A8 and 750i, are sold in LWB form. It might fly in Europe to the few people who want a Lexus on the other side of the pond, however in America we have a notion that luxury exudes things as large, and big.

vraa

How is VW doing with 'clean' diesels.

Honestly I don't know the first thing about diesels nor hybrids. I'm an ******* I'll admit it. I couldn't give a crap about the environment (personal issues).

I guess I don't see a point in the SWB. I've had a LS400 and it was pretty much a SWB sedan. I thought it was stupid to have that plush ride but no way to LIMO it.

vraa

The SWB won't be a hot seller, I think.... it might be special order only just like the executive seating package is on the LS460.

pmb600

Lol, actually I'm 20. I don't think the S-Class is an old persons car at all, if I could afford one at this age, it would be in my driveway lol. I was referring more to the cost not the apperance.

And, btw, I drove the new E550 and it is defintaely one hell of buy. Great car, its amazing how such small exterior apperance changes made me love that car now since I was never an E-Class fan.

TeutonicCarFan

I think the only reason they are offering the SWB is to get a cheap full size luxury on the market? I agree I would get the A8 L or the 750L and those are the only ones I see (every now and then I see 750s but most Audi's are L). I also agree with AsianML, MB is putting out a lot of variation with regard to engine displacement, fuel source, and trim levels. What is the purpose, doesn't it make it harder on the production side? (perhaps note b/c they have been doing that in Europe for awhile?)

MB Fanatic

MB has the most models of any company and they have demonstrated that they can be very flexible in their production lines. People always say look how efficient the Japanese are, well they offer less models and less variations. MBZ offers many variaties of the same class and the way they can pump them out with quality is amazing.

TeutonicCarFan

If I were to spend 70k on a vehicle, as I just priced out a 4matic E class to be, I would buy a Range Rover. Of course that is more like 77k, but I live in Buffalo so it would be the right move.

It is amazing that they [MB] can put out so many model combinations with such great precision....

1SICKLEX

Remember Lexus hybrids are about performance. You get the performance of an engine with 2 more cylinders with an increase in fuel economy. No, they are not 50 MPG cars but think of it as their way of the S/C or a turbo without the poor fuel economy.
The V-6 GS 450h just tested against its V-8 competition was nearly as fast, WAS the fastest in every passing time and 20% more fuel efficient in real world driving It also was only 100lbs more than the E550/550/M45....

I will be the first to say it sounds like crap compared to a V-8 or V-12 let alone with with some F/I .
The move to smaller and more fuel efficient batteries is coming with the next generation of hybrids. This is still a very new technology (and NOT for everyone) and Lexus is learning about it still.

MB Fanatic

The GS450 has no trunk, weighs a ton, and doesnt get all that much better gas mileage for its huge cost.

http://www.caranddriver.com/comparis...us-gs450h.html

I still want to see how this LS600hl performs and whether or not it will be on par with say an S600 since that is its intended target.

vraa

I'll tell you right now, they won't beat the S600.

You cannot fight 590lb-ft torque.

carsinamerica

I think the main value of SWB top-flight sedans comes down to something besides a cost proposition. Like pmb600 said, it's as much about the style and feature content.

I wrote in another forum about a trend in China, where Audi and BMW now offer long-wheelbase versions of the A6 and 5-Series, respectively. This is because some Chinese businessmen like the limo-like feel of LWB sedans, but don't need all of the bells & whistles or the exorbitant pricetag. I suspect M-B will follow suit and do a factory-stretch-E. It creates an interesting potential for market segmentation. If you want a nice executive-class car, buy an E or 5. If you want a roomier car, buy the LWB version. Or, if you prioritize feature content and exclusivitity ahead of rear cabin volume, buy an SWB S or 7 for about the same money. And if you want both, buy an LWB flagship. It makes sense to me. I wish they'd offer them here -- it could our chance to rid the world of Lincoln Town Car L's. Buy a stretch E or 5 for almost the same dough (well, maybe 8k more)! It'd be fabulous.

However, another reason exists to buy an SWB flagship model. They're shorter and lighter, so they're more maneuverable and nimble, and easier to park, slightly better at acceleration, and slightly better in economy. I loved the idea of the BMW 760i (I was the only one, apparently: they cancelled it this year, although the B7 might fill the gap somewhat): shorter wheelbase, lighter on its feet, and a fantastic V-12 underfoot. It's perfect. I'd buy a car like that to drive it, not sit in the back like a sultan, so why would I want to drag around the extra caboose? I like the stubby look of them, too. Especially in the BMW 7-Series (but to some extent with others, too), the LWB model just looks a little grotesquely stretched. The SWB models are more rounded, more fluid somehow in my book. Aside from the chintzy wheels, I think the '06 S320W was the best looking W220 in the States for that very reason.

Vraa - sorry about the mis-attribution. This one's you:

[QUOTE:vraa]How is VW doing with 'clean' diesels. Honestly I don't know the first thing about diesels nor hybrids. I'm an ******* I'll admit it. I couldn't give a crap about the environment (personal issues).[/QUOTE]

Unless you're 70 years old and have one foot in the grave and no kids or nephews/nieces, I can't imagine what "personal issues" keep you from caring about the environment. I don't think that everybody has to be an activist, driving Priuses and Civic Hybrids to save the planet and worshipping spotted owls and endangered spiders. However, the planet's getting toasty, folks! When all the ice on Greenland and Antarctica melts and the oceans become less salty and currents disrupt and climate patterns shift and Manhattan, D.C., and Miami are all underwater, then we'll be up the creek (literally and figuratively). And when Iowa is a desert and we have to grow corn in Saskatchewan, then we'll know how badly we fricked up the world.

I'm a little testy about this (even more than most things) b/c I'm 25, which means that I have to live out my life in the reality created by the screw-ups in my parent's generation. I don't want to have to move to Anchorage just to avoid living in Texas weather, thank you very much. And I'm not willing to hang all my bets on Jesus swooping in like the Masked Avenger to wipe the problems away, as some fundies seem to think.

As to your question, VW/Audi, BMW, and Mercedes are all working together on Bluetec clean-diesel technology. They've all got 45-state-legal diesels now, thanks to the new ultra-low-sulphur #2 now standard across the nation, and they SAY they'll all be 50-state-legal by '08. 'Course, VW said the Touareggy's super-duper-turbo-diesel 10-cylinder would be 50-S-L by '06, then by '07, so we'll see....

[QUOTE:NevadaJack]One thing is the h at the end of the 600...I am not a fan of Hybrids and testing is showing the economy and green value may all be hype. Cars are not getting the predicted mpg and the disposal of batteries is causing some real hurt with the environmental movement. Also, the long term effect of battery power using todays technology is unknown and how about replacement cost if you want to keep the car a long time.

I think clean diesels will surpass the hybrid once it is accepted by the US consumer...and as usual MB will lead in this innovation also.[/QUOTE]

We agree! Almost.... Sort of.... Hybrids certainly don't deliver the advertised fuel economy under normal circumstances, which is one reason that the EPA needs something other than a testing regimen that's almost as old as me. However, it's not disputable that they deliver better power/mileage than a comparable conventional gas engine. Here's a sample (the new Camry has been thoroughly tested in various trim by the mags, so there's more data to work with):

'07 Toyota Camry I-4: 158 hp, 24/33 mpg predicted, 19.0 mpg in CG tests (including acceleration runs), 10.1 sec to 60 in CG tests (who don't use hard-launch techniques).
'07 Toyota Camry I-4 Hybrid: 187 hp combined, 40/38 mpg predicted, 33 mpg by C/D, 31.2 mpg in CG tests (including acceleration runs), 8.3 sec to 60 in CG tests.
'07 Toyota Camry V-6: 268 hp, 22/31 mpg, 17.9 mpg in CG tests (including acceleration runs), 6.2 sec to 60 in CG tests.

The same thing can be done with figures on the Lexus GS. Even with the extra weight, these hybrids outperform base versions in both acceleration and economy. Again, this at least partially due to the efficient power delivery of electric motors, which develop peak torque from 0 rpms. It's worth noting, too, that Hybrid value is improving. The Hybrid adds about $1k to an XLE 4-cylinder, but has much of the same equipment.

Hybrid batteries are designed to be very-long-life, and to be recyclable as well. Not completely recyclable, but largely, and this capability can be expected to improve with experience and advances in technology (just like diesels continue to improve). Toyota's complete hybrid system has an 8-year warranty, so ownership costs and longevity concerns shouldn't be too great. After that, could the battery system give out? Yes, it could, after perhaps 10 years or so. Costs of new batteries packs have already fallen substantially, and will continue to do so as the technology proliferates.

The other green value, and especially relevant vis as vis my reponse to vraa above, is that of carbon dioxide emissions. EPA says that I-4 Camrys will produce about 6.6 tons of CO2 emissions per year, V-6s will produce 7.2 tons, and Hybrids just 4.8 tons. In other emissions measurements, the I-4 and V-6 models are ULEV II, but the Camry Hybrid is SULEV II. This is the part that the daily motorist cannot measure, but is part of the hybrid ownership rationale.

But, in the end, hybrids aren't the long-term solution. E85 certainly isn't, and every time I see those stupid, misleading ads from GM about the joys of E85 (conveniently forgetting to mention the wretched effect on fuel economy), I want to knash my teeth. Neither are natural-gas vehicles like the Honda Civic GX, nor are clean turbo-diesels. Not even diesel hybrids will do the trick, although PSA has some fantastic testing and expectations of their performance (80-100 mpg). We're going to have to switch to hydrogen. We'll overcome the technical and safety obstacles because we won't have a choice -- gas ain't gonna last forever, folks, and even the Saudis admit it! I don't believe it will all be fuel-cell vehicles. I think hydrogen-powered combustion engines will be a big part of the picture, particularly for auto enthusiasts. BMW's Hydrogen 7 and Mazda's Hydrogen Renesis (which suggests that hydrogen power is particularly suited to the rotary motor) point the way forward.

In the meantime, hybrids will be just as much a part of the solution as clean diesels. This is why M-B will bring out a hybrid S-Class in 2008, and kudos to them for it. I also wish they (and others) would bring their larger turbodiesels to US shores. What's not to love about the S400 CDI, or the 745d, or that mammoth new V-12 TDI from the Audi Q7? I read reviews of those in European mags, and thought, yep, that's what I'd want in my luxury car. Mammoth torque, relentless passing power, and efficiency to boot. Sign me up! But in the meantime, I suppose I could live with a 440-horsepower hybrid LS 600h L. That's pretty impressive from a SULEV, ya know.

1SICKLEX

I know your pretty biased against Lexus but did you read ANYTHING I said.
1. Yes the trunk is small. This is the WORLDS FIRST LUXURY RWD Hyrbid. There will be drawbacks.
2. The car weighs 100lbs more than the V-8 competiiton. 100lbs is not even a small child. So to have all those batteries, that is not bad. It is 400lbs MORE than the GS 430 (which is near lightest in class)
3, Gas mileage is at LEAST 20% better than the competition. No, it is not some incredible 100 MPG car but considering you get 340hp and 20% better fuel economy, that is pretty good.
4. VRAA is right, I just don't see the LS 600L h being faster in a straight line as a V-12 TT. I just can't see that. It will be more fuel efficient and passing power will be on par or better than the S 600.

I cannot even figure out how anyone can bash or downplay any of the cars we are talking about. They are all just fabulous and dream cars to most people.