pmrogers

Had a scary incident in the 600 yesterday. Coming out of an 90' turn into a parking lot, I had total loss of power steering and braking. Fortunately, the lot was large and mostly empty, so I had plenty of room to come to a stop. Turned the car off and back on, and everything came up normally.

I was braking hard and spinning the wheel pretty quickly, so it is possible that I might have bumped the start/stop button with a stray finger. Will the car actually shut down immediately if you touch the start button while braking at 15-20mph?

This reminded me a bit to much of the end of the Fifth Gear test drive: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=syoBXsYBFvs.

What do you think, car problem, or user error?

Thanks,
Paul

DaCeptak0n

I had that happen when we initially test-drove the 550.

cyclerider

The engine start/stop button only works when the car is in Park. If you press it when the car is in gear, whether moving or stopped, absolutely nothing happens.

Diesel Benz

But you could not lose power steering and brake boost if the engine runs. And a failure that gets fixed by restarting sounds impossible for power steering, it isn't electronically controlled more than the sensitivity against speed (and would not go to zero).

Which way did you turn? I could think of turning the steering wheel to the left and touching the gear lever, it would go to N at 20 mph, not to reverse! Then you would have had to touch the start button, less likely.

Did you press the brake pedal at full force? If brake boost disappears, you have to press a lot harder but it should still brake well (this isn't an SBC car).

pmrogers

I think the engine was off, but I can't say for certain. I noticed that every indicator light was on in the instrument cluster, like when you first start the car, and the radio was still playing. Unfortunately, I wasn't thinking clearly enough to look separately at the tachometer, so I can't say for certain whether the engine was idling or completely off.

I was turning left. I pressed the pedal _very_ hard, and I'm a fitness buff in pretty decent shape for 38yo. I have to say, both the brakes and steering were ridiculously difficult. This car really needs its power assist!

Talked to my service advisor, and, as expected, he was unhelpful. They'll run full diagnostics on it tomorrow, but this was just done less than 2 months ago and came up clean. Now I'm really worried that the car will do this to me again in a less opportune location and cause a major accident. Yuck.

Eddie Knopp

There were threads about a similar occurrance a couple of years back on the W211 E55 board - some were by CTE430, honestly I forget the outcome - but you should find it there.

Diesel Benz

Do you mean SBC brake failure on an E-class or brakes and steering? SBC has even weaker mechanical back-up system, people feel the car losing brakes totally when the SBC pump fails (it actually loses main brakes). I have not heard of any steering issues but I have not followed the E55 board.

With the explanation from pmrogers, it sounds like the brakes were not just operating without the booster, a man at better than average shape should not feel like the car had no brakes even after loss of brake boost.

Theoretically the ABS valves could stay at a position where they reduce brake power to avoid skid, but ABS brakes are so proven technology that this should not happen, at least not for all wheels at the same time.

A mystery to me at least, hopefully it gets resolved, or at least will not be seen again.

kevine310

I'd suggest having this formally documented at the dealership, not just having an informal "check-up"; just in case if this happens again and something serious happens.

pmrogers

Good idea. I'm having nightmare visions of a major wreck followed by a hopeless attempt to get compensation from MBUSA for 60k diminished-value on the vehicle and 10k/yr insurance hike. I'm wondering if I should retain a lawyer now to guide me through the best way to document this for future protection.

Is 60k diminished-value even sufficient? Anyone care to provide their best guess for resale value of a 2007 S600 with 10k miles and major body repair work vs. the same car with perfect record?

Paul

cte430

I was the one who had issues with my E55 that Eddie mentions. However, my car would completely shut off. Fortunately, never while driving. Always happened in stop and go traffic.

wouldn't even know it had died until you hit the gas to go and looked at the dash to see it was lit up like a Christmas tree.

The difficult part was that my problem never through a fault so the dealer could not see what was going on. A few other guys had the same issue and what we ended up doing was changing the crank sensor which seemed to help. After changing it the car shut off one more time, changed it again and didn't happen again. I don't believe it happened to the new owner (another member here) either.

Like you, I just assumed I must have done s omething the first time. I had the car about a week and was on the Cross Bronx Exp. (bad place to stall ) in bumper to bumper (is there any other kind) traffic in 90 + degree weather. It was usually very hot when this happened. Anyway, after it died I figured I hit something or accidently hit a button. A few months later it did it again and I brought it in. They adjusted the idle speed. Several months later did it again. Brought it back in and spoke to the V.P. of the dealership. I've bought several cars from them and told her I was just glad it didin't happen with my wife driving or while the car was in motion. On the spot she said "I'll get you another car".


edit: It looks like your car did completely shut off? If so, then it's a very similiar situation. The only time I experienced something where the car was moving was one day my salesguy let me take out an SL65 for a spin. coming up to an intersection and about to make a right hand turn, the car shut off. Not fun.

do a search on "stalling" in the E55 forum and you should find some info. there.

wman

You can shut the car off in drive or reverse as long as your foot is on the brake when you are pushing the button

Diesel Benz

This was a good piece of information to know.

cyclerider

I will check that today with my E550. My start/stop button is on top of the gearshift. If what you say is true, it would be very easy to kill the engine (and power steering and brakes) in an E-Class just by manually downshifting gears while braking for a corner. I have NEVER had this happen, and would be surprised if the Germans would allow such a dangerous engineering mistake to enter production.

pmrogers

Please make sure you have lots of room before this test! I might try a careful version of this when my car comes back from the detailer tomorrow.

I do recall now that the S will definitely allow you to power down the engine while in D, at least when you are at a full stop. When I first got the car I had a bit of a problem with remembering to put it into park after pulling into a parking space. The car would let me stop the engine and then start drifting as soon as I took my foot off the brake.

Allowing you to stop the engine when the vehicle is halted is understandable, but I would sure hope that the the ignition button is disabled when in motion, or at least enforces a 1-second hold before responding. That said, I'll actually feel better about my car if I can reproduce the engine kill while in motion-- I'd rather face known bad engineering than an unknown problem.

Paul

cyclerider

Okay, I just returned from a test drive. Here are the results for a 2007 E-Class, but I can't imagine why the S-Class would function any differently.

Pressing Start/Stop button in Drive while moving
Pressing Start/Stop button in Reverse while moving
Pressing Start/Stop button in Drive while moving and braking
Pressing Start/Stop button in Reverse while moving and braking

All of the above had absolutely no effect. No lights, buzzers, warnings, etc.

Pressing Start/Stop button in Drive while stopped with foot on brake
Pressing Start/Stop button in Reverse while stopped with foot on brake
Pressing Start/Stop button in Neutral while stopped with foot on brake

These three things did NOT stop the engine, but DID cause the MFD to turn red and say "Gear Selector Lever in Park Position"

Pressing Start/Stop button in Park with or without foot on brake kills engine.

cyclerider

No I can't. See post above.

cyclerider

Paul, my car will not allow that, and I think you have a very dangerous problem. If you parked on a hill and exited your vehicle, you could have a runaway on your hands. I think there is something wrong with your S600.

wman

I have to disagree with some of of the tests, when i park my car in my garage every night the car is in reverse and i just step on the brake and push the start button and the car shuts off, the only time i get the red light warning is if i open the door while the car is in gear, remember the e class button is on the shifter and the s class button is on the dash board, as far as while the car is in motion i agree with your tests 100%.....jeff

BeantownFlyer

If you press the stop button while in gear (with foot on the brake) the car will shut off but remain in gear. If you then open the door it will automatically shift into park.

I have experienced this, and it is also stated in the manual.

openwyder

This make sense in all of these. S class has an electronic 7 speed tranny. E class has the conventional one. They function differently, and since S has an electronic tranny, it places the gear to park automatically. that's why it allows you to turn off engine even when you're on D, as long as you step on brake. I haven't read manual, just my observation.

AsianML

Exactly. There were a few threads in the GL section about this happening and some people thought it was related to Keyless Go (KG is irrelevant).

cyclerider

Do you have a source for this information? I believe the transmissions are identical, as are the V-8 engines.

Apoligies to the original poster for straying off topic.

Diesel Benz

"Electronic" here means the wire connected small gear stick at the steering wheel shaft while the E has a traditional stick between the seats.

Both are at the end driven by a computer, with electro hydraulic circuits.

AsianML

From the manual of the GL, which iirc, uses the exact same system as the S.

KEYLESS-GO*:
...
Keep in mind that turning off the engine using the KEYLESS-GO start/stop button alone will not automatically shift the transmission to park position P. Only when the driver’s door is opened, will the transmission automatically shift to park position P.

Even though this is possible, make it a practice to always shift into park position P before turning off the engine and removing the SmartKey from the starter switch, or when using KEYLESS-GO*, before turning off the engine with the start/stop button and opening the driver’s door.

SmartKey:
If you turn off the engine using the SmartKey and remove the SmartKey from the starter switch, the transmission will shift to park position P automatically. Keep in mind that turning off the engine with the SmartKey alone will not automatically shift the transmission to park position P. Only when the SmartKey is removed from the starter switch, will the transmission automatically shift to park position P.

openwyder

In summary: S (R, ML, GL, CL) class' has the capability to shift itself automatically to P for safety. E, (SL, C, CLK etc.) has a safety feature that will not allow you to turn off engine while in D or R. Thanks guys, now I understand my R class and S class better.