K-A

With overhangs you can pretty much mathmatically gauge it. I'm certain if you research, you won't find any especially larger cars with the sprawling wheelbase-to-length ratio the 5-Series has of 117" to 193" (it's really very impressive when you see other cars, as the W212 and W221/W222 prove when compared). The F10 has a wheelbase approaching the Large-Sedan categories yet holds an overall length fit for the Midsize Sedan category (though it is on the larger side).

It's really about how the designers decide to hide the overhangs. The F10 has such a blunt front, they didn't try and hide it one bit. Like I said before, with the typical "fold the corners in" that M-B and others so excessively utilize, they could have made it look tiny.

BUT, I can't argue with how it looks to your eye of course. if it looks large then it looks large.

I also don't have an issue with the W222 using the W221 base, as long as it's significantly improved. It's not like they're using the W140 or W220 bases which are too outdated by now, as the Maybach's falter indeed proved.

The ONLY thing I don't like about the 222 using the 221's base is that it has identical dimensions. I really would have loved a longer wheelbase and the same overall length to enhance proportions.

ImInPA

K-A: I agree with you. As the owner of a W221, I am glad the design is an evolution not a revolution. From most angles, the W222 looks more like a face lifted W221 than an entirely new car.

K-A

Definitely. I'm glad Mercedes didn't do some drastic about-face on the S and kept it evolutionary. In fact, I see a lot of W220 character in it, as well, namely in the front and how the grille and headlights have softened.

boylston

If K-A wants a longer wheelbase, he can always get a Pullman.

K-A

Longer wheelbase without increased overall length.

Though a Pullman with Chauffeur sounds about right.

Quadcammer

lol, where do you come up with this crap.

Please show me anything to indicate that the Maybach's failure was because customers were not happy with the 240 chassis.

Worth the wait

You guys need to find better things to do with your time.

And apparently so do I!

ImInPA

What amazes me is how good a chassis the W220 was. The W221 became stronger and stiffer, and the W222 stronger still. At some point they are going to have to carve the S-Class chassis out of a solid pice of surgical stainless steel.

aypues

+1

ImInPA

Maybach's only problem was the market segment it wanted to be in. In my opinion, when someone is going to spend 300K+ for a large sedan, there are only two names: Rolls Royce and Bently. I do not think buyers in this price range even consider another mark. I think Mercedes Benz would agree with me. It was a noble effort and a stellar product. It is pretty much the same dillema that Hyundai faces with the Equus and Genesis. Great cars by any measure, but, no name recognition. The difference is, the Koreans will stick it out and will likely find a modicum of success. I think that if MB had decided to use the patience for a return that the Asian manufacturers have, Maybach would have ultimately succeeded. Different philosophies.

K-A

You obviously don't follow too closely. The Maybach is immensely dated. People didn't have to know what chassis was under it to "feel" it being a generation or two old (with a $300K price tag, at that). It used numerous old-style M-B parts and technologies, much of that due to its dated platform architecture.

Quadcammer

you are simply making stuff up.

the platform has very little to do with people's issues with the electronics suite.

the way the car drove or rode was always praised.

K-A

So tell me, what was the cause of Maybach's falter and demise?

Certainly, there are cars that command as high or higher a price tag. Yes, Maybach had no history but the Rappers and Pop Culture picked up on it and promoted the hell out of it, so it certainly became a household name literally overnight.

The horrendous design? Yeah, chalk much of that up to being based on a generation or two older design language. The W221 came out just a few years later and was immensely more visually and technically modernized. Why do you think that is? The Maybach used a platform dated back to the 90's. Many interior parts were W220-esque, the technology, design etc. wasn't compatible with what newer M-B's were bringing out because it was simply of an older generation.

Of course I have no doubts about its ride. The W140 and W220 rode great and I'm sure the extensive ways they tweaked those chassis' did further wonders. However, that didn't change the fact that you were getting in inherently archaic car considering what you'd expect for $300+ grand.

Germancar1

Very old debate.

Maybach died because no one outside of Germany under 80 years old knows what a Maybach is or was.

Secondly the car itself was outdated, the W221 S-Class blew it out the water technology wise and it looked better.

The Maybach was also crippled by too much plucking from the Mercedes parts bin, and the old parts bin at that. The interior was pretty much a better version of the W220. The chassis wasn't the problem. It has the best ride/handling compromise of any car in that class per the press reviews of it. Car and Driver likened it to "teaching a hippo to dance".

Outdated, not very attractive/old exterior and interior design, no name recognition and lastly overpricing killed the Maybach.


Mercedes used to compete with Rolls and Bentley easily with their own cars, and they on more than a few occasions beat the **** out of them with cars like the 600 Grosser. That car was so much more advanced and just as stately as any Rolls or Bentley.

Rolls and Bentley were way past their expiry date under Vickers.

Mercedes now knows that they don't have to make up or bring back a long dead brand to challenge Rolls and Bentley. They'll do it with a super S-Class, whatever they call it.

Mercedes IMO enjoys a very unique position in the automotive world. The make dump trucks, bused and Unimogs, yet their cars compete with Golf/Focuses (A-Class Hatchback), Ferraris (SLS Black Series) and everything else in between.

Looking at the interior of the new S, and these are are just the working versions, S400, S350 BT and S550/500, they have set their sights on the Flying Spur and Ghost. The upcoming S600 and S65 AMG will easily take on these entry level cars from Bentley and Rolls.

I can't wait to see what the Maybach replacement will be.

No one else has the lineup Mercedes has or competes across a wider swath of the luxury market. BMW and Audi and Jaguar are close yet aren't. They're either restricted at the top (BMW, Audi) or bottom (Jaguar) or both (Jaguar).

Maybach was never needed. Even the original concept from the 1997 Tokyo auto show was called the "Maybach by Mercedes".


M

T.A

Agreed. The Maybach replacement will be amazing I'm sure. What I don't get is how people can say the S doesn't stand a chance against these cars (RR, Bentley). The Mulsanne etc. cannot be touched ofcourse (at least for now), but the entry level cars will be in the S' sight. Interesting times.

But, how is Jaguar restricted at the bottom? For now they are, sure, but aren't they currently developing a C-Class/3-Series competitor?

K-A

I always felt like RR/Bentley have always been far more premium'ly priced to cars like S Classes, 7-Series', etc. than they are technically premium. You get things like extensive leather, wool carpeting, etc., but it's not far fetched to me at all that a 2014 S could be technically competitive to those especially entry RR/Bentley's. Of course the [especially next] next 7 Series, A8, etc. will be the true W222 competitors, then the RR/Bentley's will have to step it up, etc.

If you think about it, S's especially when launched have always had a compelling argument to be a very worthy competitor especially when value comes into play, VS those insanely priced uber-premiums.

To go even further, I feel many times that the Mid-Size relatives to the top-line Sedans in the Merc/BMW/Audi ranges are close enough to the uber-Sedans to be even more compelling choices, when value comes into play. Best example is the 5-Series which is so closely based on the 7-Series, yet tighter, more modern, etc, I feel it's an actually superior fundamental car and design. I felt the same with the W211 I had VS the W220 I had (W211 superior overall car). However, since the W221 came out, I feel like M-B has made the S kind of its own brand, as the W212 never really caught up in refinement like the W211 did to the W220, and of course the W222 is in a whole different league, based on pics/info thus far, than the W212.

I'm rambling, but this brings up an interesting subject to me.

T.A

Yes, the next 7 and A8 will be true S-Class competitors, but that doesn't keep the S from competing against entry level RRs and Bentleys.

This is what I initially wanted to see from Merc. A car that could step it up to compete with the higher end vehicles such as RR etc., and really leave the 7-Series and A8 behind. This isn't the case ofcourse, but it's not far from it as I see it. The W222 really is superior to the 7 inside out IMO (based on pics and technology ofcourse, can't wait to actually sit in the car), though the A8's interior is somewhat in the same league. Guess we'll simpy have to wait and see what the G11 (or whatever it's called) brings to the game, but until then the S is superior.

And even if you don't see the W222 as a RR/Bentley competitor, the Maybach replacement surely will be. And the next CL... Ah, interesting times indeed.

K-A

Oh no, that's what I was saying. I feel the S-Class has always been a bonafide competitor in a multitude of ways to the entry-r level RR/Bentleys, at least when you discount the fluff those cars use to aesthetically pass of their price tags (wool, extended ultra plush leather, etc.). The W140 I feel was even looked at as more prestigious in its time to whatever weak RR/Bentleys were around in the 90's (kind of a soft time for them if I remember correctly), as well the W126, the W221, and the W222 seems to carry that spirit well indeed.... I think M-B is playing some mind trickery by making the interior look literally quite British to add to that perception as well.

Maybe it's 'cause I haven't driven a newer Rolls or Bentley, but they never really get me all that impressed.... at least considering the price tag.

The A8 gets so much praise for its interior.... but dare I say.... I don't find its interior all that elegant. I've sat in plenty of A8's, and it doesn't necessarily make me feel like "ooh, I want to 'live' here", which is what a large Luxury Sedan should make you want to feel, IMO.

T.A

When I wrote "you" it wasn't directed at you personally, I meant generally everyone. Sorry for that, lol, English is not my native language. I fully understood what you ment, and I fully agree.

The wool etc. does make the RR more "bespoke" (right term?), but that's a weak argument as to why it's concidered better than the S (again, something you brought up, but not directed at you as there are other people claiming this). Because there's so much more technology and so on in the S that the RR and Bentley simply don't have. A wool carpet doesn't exactly make up for it. Or maybe it does for some people, what do I know.

And I agree about the A8 interior btw. It does flow nicely, materials are excellent and really looks very nice (but even the W221 with the right combination did look better), thus, it might kind of be in the same league as the 2014 S, but it's not entirely there. Although it's not the interior Audi has to worry about regarding the A8. The exterior is extremely boring, but that's another topic.

K-A

No worries, and your english and writing is remarkable for someone who's native language isn't english!

Definitely agreed. I feel like all this platform and parts sharing is making it so that to car nerds like many of us, who know a little "too much" about where these cars derive from (Ghost being largely based on the 7 Series, for example), gives them less of a fundamental supremacy (supremacy in the exclusivity of the badge due to such a high price, is basically what you get).

I can't believe RR's actually get the EXACT same interior distinctively BMW chime. Very lame for them to do that. Love the sound in BMW's, hate hearing it in RR's. They shouldn't cross something so noticeable up to a car that's "supposed" to be its own brand.

Germancar1

That is just it, they don't have an entry-level line anymore. I know they're working it, but they're losing out big time right now.

Mulsanne, yes that car is unbelievable. I got to sit in it for a while at NYC and it was an experience.


M

Wolfman

This conversation is a bit off topic, but I think you have this backwards.

First off, S-Class models have NOT been competitive against entry-level RR/Bentleys, they have always been technically superior to their high-end models as well.

Engines, drivetrain, suspension and all safety-related features were always better on the S-Class than the RR Phantom for example. For that matter, the Maybach was as well, which in most ways was technically inferior to the W221 platform. No RR could hold a candle to an S-Class technically since at least the 70's.

Low production cars typically have that problem; they don't have the money for extensive R&D/crash testing and developing the whole car on their own. This is why RR/Bentley/ Aston Martin and the like always had to help themselves out of other brands' parts bins.

The Bentley Continental benefited from VW Phaeton's development and the RR Ghost is a re-skinned BMW 760, more or less.

Germancar1 summed up the Maybach's issues nicely; I do believe that the brand could have overcome any obstacles if they would have just built a great looking car. I had the pleasure of MBUSA giving me a new Maybach 57 for a week and I had the chance to take it through it's paces. This was a powerful and nice driving car! BMW just did a fantastic job designing a car with the WOW presence needed for a $300k-$400k ticket price. Nothing was understated in the RR Phantom exterior design. They won with a much better looking car...

I don't expect much from the next 7 series; BMW pushes innovation through their mid-level models and things will eventually filter down to the 7.
This is why I like MB better; the S-level cars are always the innovation leaders for the brand and technology will filter down to the smaller models at lower price-points.

K-A

Maybe I was being modest by saying "competitive", but you're preaching to the choir, really. I've always thought that S-Classes were technically superior at their launches than existing RR/Bentleys. Again, of course if you discount more traditional materials for the ultra sumptuous stuff in the expensive Britishers. However, I even have an answer for that: "Teutonic".

Point being, nothing has changed in that regard with the W222. This is always expected of the S, and the most powerful people in the world, who can easily afford RR's, will often CHOOSE an S-Class.

As for Maybach, yes I think Daimler could have made it work, if it wasn't so visibly dated and so harshly designed. I always felt Maybach's looked like kit-cars of the W220. Once the W221 came out, it looked so much fresher, had fresher engineering, it rendered the Maybach's useless and enormously priced. Yes, you had all these fluffy creature comforts.... but it was all lipstick considering the dated basis for such an extraordinarily priced car.

BMW does seem to have kind of let it go on the 7-Series in a sense, even though I think a white F01 with M Sport Package is GORGEOUS and still best in class in looks (we'll see with the W222). When I was shopping for my F10 5er, I very closely compared an F01 to it. I found literally little about the F01 that I liked necessarily "more". I found the interiors to be near identical, something that benefits the F10 heavily yet weighs against the exclusivity you should get from an F01, yet the F10's seemed more stylish and modernized the design language a bit. The F10 is already so large, I found the F01 way too large. The F10 handled better, felt vastly more balanced and "BMW like", and more dynamic to me. The F01 was lacking important technology/engineering which the just-2-year-newer F10 brought, like the ZF 8 Speed, LED Angel Eyes, etc. To top it off, the two look so similar outside, again something that benefits the F10 yet gives the 7er less presence, however I feel the F10 is a much more dynamic and balanced design, again refining and further honing in the design idiom brought on by the 7. Simply put, BMW's flagships are the 3/5 Series more than they are the 7, by far, IMO.

What bothers me about M-B's "trickle down approach" is I'm not sure how much of it we'll see going forward. The W222's exterior, save for the rear design perhaps (not including taillight graphics) use a language already employed in multitudes of ways by the M-B family. The interior, however seems to be a very different story. The W221 also kept an exclusive interior during its design run, and generally exclusive exterior as well, with elements shared around, etc.

However, I keep saying, M-B seems to further be treating the S like an "outside car", like its own brand, and this is what will keep the S's prestige alive as M-B expand their portfolio into much lower-segment, FWD, Compact, "unspecial" cars.

T.A

Thank you, sir.

And yes, that is very lame I can imagine. As a RR owner you pay for the exclusiveness, which kinda disappears with those kind of things, sadly. Not that I'd ever own one myself but I can definitely imagine it being annoying for those who do.

Now, the Ghost being based on the 7er actually means it uses the same platform as the F10? Wow. That is incredible. I guess tweaking the platform heavily really hides it well. Another reason the W222 can compete with/be better than the Ghost, as it's not basically a pumped up E-Class.

T.A

Yes, sadly they're losing out big time as you say. I don't really care about Jags, I don't find 'em appealing at all (save for the F-type). And it's gonna be real hard to knock out the 3-Series, which I seriously doubt they'll do. And then there's the W205 C ofcourse, but the spypics haven't been that encouraging, to say the least. Will be interesting to see what the British can bring to the game.

Yes, the Mulsanne is an incredible car. I really hope Merc can pull off a car to compete with it, that would've been amazing. Not sure it's going to happen, but I have been hearing about the "Super S-Klasse" or whatever they call it.