Germancar1

True, but uhh..there are 4 door handles in the video clear as day, that is what I was talking about. Then there is the front shot. Looks nothing like the S Coupe.

M

Germancar1

It is very clear that Mercedes is taking the C-Class upmarket and other than the screen the interior is nothing like the CLA. The C will have Airmatic suspension this time around also, clearly upscale and a class exclusive. The materials are way richer looking as is the controller/touchpad.

M

K-A

I can't remember an M-B in recent time, aside from the SL I guess who's interior materials didn't feel cheaper in real life than how the press pics suggested. Even the W222 who's interior I fell in love with had surfaces that felt "cheaper" than what you'd assume from pics. It started with the horrid joke of the pre-facelift W204 interior and then bled into the cheap E Class interior, which has been very slightly improved and refined for the facelift.

I'd hope they'd take it more upmarket, but in reality, depending on how the fleet of competitors look hereafter, it could simply be in keeping with the times, especially since IMO the W204 interior was a huge regression so M-B have a lot of ground to make up there (though the W204 interior facelift was a decent "fix", it still wasn't anything hugely special).

The big thing for M-B here is how they can really crush the 3 Series in terms of interior refinement and perceived "status" as the F30 3 has a hideous interior, cheap materials and frankly doesn't look like it comes from the same brand that makes the 5 and 6 Series interiors.

As for the W205 interior, it does look high class mostly but IMO the interior center portion looks Japanese-Econ car cheap. Also the "normal" C's will look MUCH less rich and interesting than what we see in those press pics, i.e much more bare and spartan in the same way the standard CLA looks compared to a fully gussied up CLA (big difference, though the inherent cheap/chintzy plastics are still prevalent throughout).

All in all, when your backs against a wall and it's do-or-die time, you get hungry and decide your own fate. Looks like M-B is coming out swinging especially when it comes to responding to demands of "M-B like interiors" after the frankly disastrous W204 and W212 generation interiors.

Judging by the C interior pics now... the BIG one is gonna be how the E Class interior looks for the next gen. M-B already all but admitted fault with the W212 by forcing so much awkward change to it for the facelift and I GUARANTEE they are gonna wanna make a statement via the interior of that car (I'd hope exterior but I know it's gonna look like the S/C design language which isn't my thing at all so far).

Kratos-TM

I don't think Mercedes back is against the wall. They're just taking an aggressive approach to staying the dominant force that they are.

LETO

The screen for COMMAND is rather dated with it's thick bezel. The interior is overall harmonious except for the screen.

Mercedes' interior if I were to compare them to a piece of furniture are like the Eames Lounge Chair. Which I own & adore. The COMMAND screen looks like a dated tablet that someone forgot on the ottoman.

K-A

Statistically speaking, they have been. They gave up the "sales crown" to BMW in 2005, then Audi recently surpassed them, the E Class has given up major market share to the 5 Series, etc. etc.

Their stock was lagging for years as competitors soared past them, and Zetsche's whole "campaign" has been one of "bringing us back to where we once were", down to him actually being quoted as "promising" that "M-B will return to the top of sales again by 20xx". It's no secret that from the early 2000's quality debacle they had a setup of momentum-loss.

Put it this way, if M-B don't reclaim market share from BMW and Audi by the end of this decade, Zetsche will probably get fired or step down, especially since it's been he who has "promised" investors and the press that "M-B will return", many speculators have commented or written pieces on that. Add to that the fact that M-B has more cars on the ground than said competitors and still have seen market share taken away, and that M-B are moving downmarket to the point of uncharacteristically bringing in FWD budget models to the U.S which will further hurt their already lagging margins to BMW AG and VAG (which is another thing that investors have been complaining about), and you can see what they have to "resort to" to get "back in the game".

With all their rollouts and new additions this year and next, they're already ahead (I think) in U.S sales, but still lagging worldwide to BMW and Audi.

The good news is, that makes them hungry and in a place to want to "prove who they are and put their foot down", which means they can very well start rolling out products that hopefully go above and beyond, because they hadn't been doing that for a while during the recent generation, save for some select models.

Germancar1

The only real problem Mercedes has in China, that is where the difference is as far as sales are concerned. If you bother to look at all their other markets they are right in the mix as far as sales go and they lead in some. So all this talk about market share and what not is true, but it is one market that is dragging them down, not all across the world.

When you look at what Mercedes is selling they shouldn't even be in a race for the most sales considering that Audi doesn't sell squat above 60-70K, and BMW doesn't move nearly as much over 100K which is where Mercedes is selling a lot of their cars. Their lineups are not equal in price.

Why they aren't just concerned with being the most profitable is beyond me, but that should be their focus not just the most sales. Build the right product and the sales will come as in the case of all the new compacts that they can't build fast enough and already logging 30K orders for the new S-Class in just 3 months. Sales take care of themselves, what Mercedes needs to do is aim for being the most profitable like Porsche.

BMW nor Mercedes will never top Audi in profit margin per vehicle because of Audi's link and dependance on mass market VW.

The CLA is no different (other than FWD) then when Mercedes introduced the 190E to the U.S. in 1983. All the same people said the same thing back then too, and it didn't do a thing to the company but make them stronger, once the CLA finds its niche and they refine it, everything will ok with that car because it is doing what it is supposed to, draw in first time, younger buyers.

This about Mercedes having more cars on the ground too is also one sided, the extra cars that Mercedes has that BMW and Audi don't are over 100K $ so that doesn't mean anything, their price cancels out any sales advantage Mercedes should have based on these scant few models.

Every mainstream segment, Audi, BMW and Mercedes are represented equally, outside of BMW not having a true GL competitor. The G, SL, CL, SLS are all high dollar low volume cars.

To say their back is against the wall suggest their survival is at stake and that simply isn't true. The company is still very much profitable and has been on an upswing the last couple of years. Just like they fixed their quality they will fix their sales and profitability. Mazda is against a wall, Mitsubishi is against a wall, not Mercedes.


M

K-A

I mean that Mercedes' backs are against a wall in terms of remaining perceived "King" in the automotive business, at least. To have the CEO make comments about "getting back to the top" and constantly having to assure unhappy investors says it all. But their backs aren't against the wall in terms of remaining alive or relevant, far from that of course.

Yes most of their "extra" model range is upper segment, but now with the CLA, GLK, etc. and who knows what else upcoming, they have some of the cheapest priced cars to buy out of their competitors, especially when you factor in their segment-leading price slashing. Fact is, they have more cars on the ground, in Europe they have the A/B Classes which BMW doesn't even have competitors to.... yet. If BMW releases an A AND B competitor, their sales will soar higher VS M-B's than they already have, and they'd still have less cars for sale (i.e less dilution).

China is of course the key market, but again even if M-B are "competitive" in other markets, it's about the momentum, which is that M-B used to sell massively more than BMW and Audi, and now that has slowly and surely started to be reversed.

My own prediction is with M-B flooding more and more cheaper cars onto the roads, down to unfortunately already succumbing to putting out a FWD in the States, they have a big chance of surpassing BMW and Audi in worldwide sales. It would only make sense.... and if they don't, then Zetsche failed his own plan and promise and will give up the CEO seat.

I agree that M-B should focus on margins and not volume. M-B is the ultimate cachet-brand, FWD and volume-mentality will only hurt their cachet. For a company who has the ability to sell higher priced segment cars more-so than their competition, you'd think their margins would soar. Fact is they've been playing "me-too" catchup when it comes to the business end of things, i.e developmental costs, platform sharing, parts sharing, etc. etc. I actually commend them for that on a personal level. I miss the days when platforms were unique to models and parts weren't the same in almost all the cars from bottom to top.

Also, bear in mind that BMW cars HAVE become more expensive than M-B's when speaking of direct competitors, save for maybe a very select couple or so, and BMW competitors to M-B models command a higher premium (and sell for higher prices, as well). A 535i is more expensive than an E350, a 328i more than a C250, a 6 Series is MUCH more expensive than a CLS. M-B now have the only FWD model of the bunch that starts in the $20's. M-B have the most premium segments but also the least premium.

Yes, M-B still have car priced at higher end segments but a 640i decently loaded now is priced in line with an S Class. A 650i as you know, decently loaded actually is MORE than a moderately equipped S Class. The 6 Series has almost embarked on CL pricing territory and that is without it being considered or positioned as an actual CL competitor. Fact is, BMW cars when compared to their direct M-B counterparts are more expensive these days, they're just missing uber-rare super-segment cars like the SLS, CL (which again is already being quietly positioned against a rising 6), SL.

Germancar1

The GLK is no different from the Q5 or X3 so I'm going to assume you mean the GLA. Problem is you still don't have a point because BMW has the X1 and Audi the Q3. Mercedes doesn't slash prices across the board like that on every model, it is a wash with BMW who will do anything to remain #1. Haven't you see the discounts on BMWs now? They now have a 33K 320i model with 180hp as a place holder until the FWD 1-Series sedan arrives. The A/B Classes are nothing, BMW has FWD 1-Series GT coming, look it up, its all over the net now. Audi has lower end cars and sells their previous model cars in China also. You keep trying to paint a picture for Mercedes that isn't there. They have no more models at the lower end than Audi does. The A3 is coming, 1-Series is already a hatchback in Europe has been for years. German match each other model for model except for the high end and that is only because BMW and Audi know they don't have the status for Mercedes to ask 150K for a coupe or a sedan. The R8 being the only exception. How many 760Li's do you see compared to S600s.


Again, this fails to look at the reality of it. BMW isn't getting sticker for these cars. They discount also. Their leases are giveaways, watch Dec sales tactics. Just because they sticker for more doesn't mean they're getting stick prices for their cars.

The CLA starts at 29.9K and that without the delivery charge. Thing is you won't find one on a lot for less that 33-35K. They aren't selling at 29K man.

Mercedes isn't flooding the market with cheaper cars anymore than Audi or BMW are or plan to. There is no difference. Germans are lock step with each other up and down their lineups outside of the ultra rare/expensive models. What they're doing is just now introducing them to America. The A-Class has been around since 1997.


M

K-A

Yes but M-B still holds the lowest-spectrum of the market with the A/B Classes worldwide and now the CLA FWD in the States. That's just the way it is. I'm not sure about how Audi competes in those fields as I don't follow them that closely.

And regardless of where it is, M-B still has more cars for sale than any of their competitors, and are selling less cars now. Regardless of reasons or excuses or significance for that matter, that's just the way it is.

And nobody gives away leases like M-B. $199 for a C Class? $399 for a facelift E350 (per month on Lease), $750 on an SL? M-B will drop prices to whatever levels needed to move them, in my experiences. You won't find equivalent BMW's selling or leasing for as cheap as M-B's. Go bargain a deal on a C250 then a 328i and then an E350 and 535i, you'll get much cheaper prices on the M-B's, every time. For fun go cross shop a CLS then a 6 Series, you'll see even as "competitive" cars they aren't even in the same price brackets anymore (and the 6 still sells better, if I'm remembering correctly). Nobody is giving leases away like M-B is right now, I'm sure of this because I get ads sent to me by the many local dealers around me weekly, and I've cross shopped them all recently (and might again by the end of the year).

Also, fact remains that BMW sells their equivalent/competitive models (i.e 535i VS E350, 650i VS CLS550, 328i VS C250) for higher MSRP prices than M-B, so even though they don't have as many high-high price segment cars, they do have more "expensive" cars when you take into account exact-competitive models.... and they don't have a $29K base price FWD model in the States, yet.

Germancar1

As always you're going to ignore the facts. Mercedes doesn't have any more cheap cars on sale worldwide than Audi or BMW, only in the U.S. and only for now. Look at their German websites and count the models at look at their prices. If you aren't "sure" about how Audi (OR BMW) does in those markets then how can you say that Mercedes does this or does that? Doesn't make sense. Do you know what an A3 or 1-Series are in Europe?

Mercedes has more cars at the top end then BMW or Audi. They don't at the lower end or the middle. Just because the A/B/CLA are FWD doesn't mean they aren't competitors or pitched against cars like the 1-Series. Again, BMW has 1-Series hatchbacks in Europe. Audi has dozens of FWD cars in Europe. You're not playing with all the facts.

That is the sticker price. Again, they aren't getting sticker for the cars. I'm not sure why this so hard to understand. You just see what you want see and keep repeating the same thing over and over. AGAIN, you can't find a CLA for 29K. Seriously why can't you grasp this? They don't sell for 29K. At the other end, BMW doesn't get CL, SLS, GL, SL or V12 level money like Mercedes does. Clearly they aren't playing on the same field above 100K.


M

K-A

None of that matters to the points I'm making.

First: Merc has the A AND B Classes which are cheaper than and outnumber BMW's budget cars (and are FWD, a cheaper architectural setup designed for a true MPV).

Second: It doesn't matter what the CLA sells for. Quit making excuses (anyway in due time they'll be getting typical price slashes and WILL be selling in the mid $20's) Does BMW have a FWD car in the States? Does BMW sell ANY car in the States that starts at $29K? What's more expensive; A 535i or E350? 650i or CLS550? 328i or C250? BMW doesn't have upper SEGMENT cars to match M-B, but equal BMW's are more EXPENSIVE. Those are facts.

Third: M-B has the most cars on the market out of their competitors. No excuses, no logistics behind it, just a fact.

Now, getting off of sticker prices, this is where M-B really shines. NOBODY discounts as much as M-B. Can you find me a 328i leasing for $199 a month? Because I just got an ad in for a C250 at that price. Can you find me a 2014 535i for $399 a month? Never. I've had multiple offers for E350's sent to me.

Yes, everyone slashes prices, but none more than M-B from my experiences, and that is even considering they have lower MSRP's than exact-competing BMW equivalents.

Go to the E Class boards and see what people have leased E350's for and how much MSRP slashing they've received, you'll see lots of people paying in the $400's, and getting 15-20+% discounts. Do the same on the 5 Series boards, you'll see barely anyone paying $500's for a 535i and if lucky getting around 10%. Maybe the discounts have gotten higher on outgoing pre-facelift models but they still won't touch the 20% you regularly see on E Classes.

Then go do the same on C250's and 328i's.

Forget how you perceive my impressions via both brands is due to all this. None of the above is anywhere near false.

Germancar1

First: it doesn't matter, they're both beneath both brands traditional cars and roles. Whether or not they're RWD or FWD are matterless. Did you not see the survey where most 3-Series drivers didn't know which wheels moved their cars? FACT. FWD RWD is matterless at the bottom end. These buyers don't know, or most of them don't.

Second: It does matter what the CLA is selling for since you seem to think that it matters what other Mercedes and BMW models sell for. One doesn't matter but the other does? That is nonsense and a clear bias to make a feeble point.

Third: Yeah they do, but they are far beyond what BMW and Audi. You continue to bury your head in the sand and/or ignore your own common sense. For ever CL or SL or SLS Mercedes sells BMW is selling many more 3-Series derivatives.

You know what you're probably just wrong anyways. You're going by now many different specific model lines each has not how many models each have. If you count the models, BMW might have the same sheer number of models on sale. I don't feel like counting them all at this hour.

And BMW slashes just as much on certain models. M5s and M6 are going for 12K off around here. Unless you have something that shows what nationwide discounts are then you can't possibly know about every deal that Mercedes or BMW cuts to each customer, only your circle and mine. You can't speak for everyone that gets a deal on either a BMW or a Mercedes.

A lot of what you're saying is false because you don't deal in facts, you deal in what you think which is far off base and comes from a bias against Mercedes at this point.

You're talking about 3/C and 5/E cars not the entire lineups as far as discounts go. Tell me what type of discounts did BMW give on the 7-Series last month? Do you know because they moved a lot of them?


Let me see the ad for a brand new C250 or $199 a month and hell I'll lease it myself.


The only thing that changed is that Mercedes, and next BMW and Audi are selling their cheaper cars here. They have been doing it in the U.S. for years. Fact.


M

Germancar1

If you go to BMW USA and MBUSA and count all the different models that each offers with their engines and drivetrains, BMW offers far more model variants than Mercedes does.

There are 41 different models/trims of Mercedes cars compared over over 60 for BMW. LOOK IT UP.


M

K-A

Actually that survey was *1 Series* drivers not knowing about their cars being RWD. Not 3 Series drivers.

Facts are facts and fact is M-B has a larger fleet of cars, have the only U.S car with a starting tag of $29K i.e have the cheapest Luxury car out of the 2 (not sure about Audi entry price) AND have two FWD cheap movers in EU that are a HUGE boost to their sales that BMW hasn't truly provided an "answer" (I wish they wouldn't) to, until their upcoming FWD B Class competitor.

Whatever excuses or logistics you want to provide are fine, but my point was that those are all facts, and the surrounding comments by the CEO about where they "will be" in several years due to declining market share even with the largest fleet of cars and more "cheap cars" available in EU (and now in U.S).

Another fact is that MSRP's for BMW equivalents are always more expensive than M-B's, maybe save for S and 7 now. 5, 3, 6, and I'm sure plenty more sell for more than their M-B competitors. Therefore BMW command a higher MSRP on individual cars pertaining to certain segments, however don't have as many "specialized" upper-upper segment cars a'la SL and CL (though again, the 6 commands almost the same price as the CL these days when gussied up).

Here are the ads. Find me ONE 2014 328i leasing for $199 a month or ONE 2014 535i leasing for $379 a month or ONE 650i leasing for $679 and you'll have a case. M-B slash prices SO much these days they're practically paying you to take their cars, considering what their joke of "MSRP's" are.

Let's not forget the ad you already saw me post of an SL550 leasing for $770 a month.... with an MSRP tag of almost $120K.

Germancar1

Wrong. They don't. Look at the cars they both offer on sale here. What you don't seem to or refuse to grasp is that Mercedes has more models at the top than BMW or Audi which in BMWs case is made up on the bottom with the 1-Series. You choose not to accept this, but it is a fact.

You keep saying 29K and again for the umpteenth time, THEY DON'T SELL FOR THAT. No dealer has them on the lot for 29K. Are you just going to ignore this fact so you can keep repeating the same thing over and over?

No excuses, just common sense. You just choose to ignore the facts to make a ridiculous point that doesn't even make a difference here.

Prove it with actual transaction prices on each model. You just saying you're sure means nothing since you're typically wrong about things you're so "sure" on.

Just because BMW has higher sticker prices doesn't mean that they get sticker for them. Common sense man. Now if you have the transaction prices I'd love to see them.

The add for the C250 for $239 a month is for a Certified Pre-Owned car, its a service loaner that the're trying to get rid of looks like. Every dealer can run specials like this, point being these aren't nationally advertised rates which is why I said you can't speak for everyone across the country as to what type of deal they got on their Mercedes. OMG man they have 1 car at each of those prices. What bull**** man and you know it.

M

Germancar1

AND LIKE I SAID BEFORE ANY DEALER CAN POST SUCH DEALS, IT ISN'T ANYTHING NEW TO MERCEDES-BENZ:

http://www.vistabmw.com/Miami_new_car_offers.html

READ IT AND LOOK THE PRICES.

320i for $237 a month.
528i for $357 a month.


BMW DOES THE SAME EXACT THING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

THESE ARE ALL BRAND NEW 2014 MODELS NOT CLOSE OUT 2013s AS SOME OF YOUR ADS ARE!!!!!!!!!!!!!


LOOK AT THESE SPECIALS:


http://www.vistabmw.com/Miami_new_car_offers.html


M

K-A

Again, point is M-B has the cheapest car out there and more models on the lot between the two. Find me a BMW with a starting price of $29K in the States. You won't. The 1 costs more than the CLA, Base or Spec'd.

Uhh, no, that is NOT a Certified Pre-Owned C. And I showed you an ad for $199 (with 5 available). People are getting these prices ALL OVER for E and C Classes, all the time, this isn't some "one time thing", don't believe the dealer BS to get you in the door, lol. Those two cars are given away for dirt cheap. You'll never find 535i's going for as cheap as E350's after price slashing nor 328i's going for as cheap as C250's or 650's going for as cheap as CLS550's. BMW are both more expensive by MSRP AND actual selling prices, when you compare equivalent/competitive models.

We've made our cases, I see and experience it one way, you don't want to see it that way, I understand you have a kind of nostalgic devotion to the M-B brand and cachet. Let's just move on.

Here's the $199 ad. BOTH are on BRAND NEW C's.

K-A

Wow, you're reaching, lol.

First off, you're resorting to a 528i? Well you just made my point further, because the 528i is leasing for about as cheap as the E350! The 535i they have on display is going for almost $450 with a $6K downpayment. That car is MUCH more expensive to lease than an E350.

Also, the 320i leases for more than the C250, and the 328i they show leases for about DOUBLE the C250.

Thank you for making my case all the much clearer. Nobody slashes prices to move cars as much as M-B, matched with more cars on the floor, lower MSRP's, and they still are behind in worldwide sales. No wonder Dr. Z has to make wild claims to keep investors happy.

Germancar1

THE CLA DOES NOT SELL FOR 29K. PERIOD.


The 1 cost more yet the lease prices for the 1-Series is LESS than what the CLA would offer now because it is brand new so your point is MOOT. Matterless.

See how you're now resorting to using certain models? You don't have a case here because you are steadily retreating. You pick the one car that isn't on the BMW DISCOUNT SHEET at that particular dealer.

BMW doesn't get any more for their cars than Mercedes does because the web is littered with cheap as hell lease prices for BOTH BRANDS. FACT.

Your add is for a 2013!!!!! It is a close out deal. What part of that don't you get?

M

Germancar1

I just listed one example, wasn't comparing the 528i to anything. The 328i does not lease for double of what the C250 does unless you're talking about a sedan vs a convertible.

You keep repeating that MB has more models on the floor. Have you actually counted them? NO you haven't. You keep repeating something that simply isn't true.




M

K-A

The CLA STARTS at $29K, therefore Mercedes has the cheapest car out of the two. Period.

Nope, my ad also had a 2014 C for $239 which is about as much as a 320i on your ad.

Nobody slashes prices like M-B! (Their new slogan ). The two ads we posted FURTHER prove it when comparing similar MSRP models positioned against each other.

Stop getting mad. This is getting boring, just move on. We're not supposed to banter like this in threads anyway and this has nothing to do with the S Coupe.

Germancar1

Yet it doesn't sell for that. Period.

The add for $239 is for a pre owned car. The $199 add is for a closeout 2013 model.

BMW slashes prices just as much and neither slash prices across the board in the same manner so you can't say who does what totally.

Nope not mad, just amazed at how you make up **** as you go along. 328i does not lease for DOUBLE of a C250 sedan to sedan, that is an outright LIE.


M

K-A

That IS NOT a pre-owned. You can't lease a pre-owned, and it's a 2014. The text for Pre-Owned opens up to a section that has pre-owned models for sale which are not in that screenshot. The BRAND NEW C250 shown is part of a section of brand new cars.

I just proved that M-B price slashes significantly more. Just because you can buy the same shoes from two places for a discount doesn't make them equal. The guy selling it to you for 20% off will be M-B, and the guy selling it to you for 10% off will be BMW.

Germancar1

It says pre-owned right next the add. Individual dealer, not a nationwide price.

You just proved that certain Mercedes models are discounted more, which I never denied, what I said that you don't know what Mercedes does on the whole, nationwide across their lineup. Not every Mercedes is discounted to the extreme just like NO BMW sells for sticker price.

M