E 200 CDI

Here where I live in southern Sweden there no Tesla cars, I saw one last week in Malmö..
I drive a lot every day but I never see any Tesla cars, maybe I have seen 10 or maximum 15 this year.
Everyone here drives VW, Audi, Bmw, Mercedes, Volvo and Peugeot...
American cars have a very bad reputation here.

For me personally Tesla is a no-go.
There are a few reaons for that:
- American made, - I only drive european cars.
- No tradition and automobile history.
- I only drive Diesel cars

Landers

SO I'll answer a bunch of stuff.

1) Yes I realize iPad charging is not pushing range from 275 down to 250, but it is drawing current. Period. When you add in everything else does it help range, hurt range, or is it absolutely neutral. It hurts, albeit very little since it does not draw much current, but by definition taking energy from one and transferring to another by definition hurts it so you point is 100% wrong to say it is neutral. In other words your statement of "Next the iPad charging does not eat up the drive train battery." is factually incorrect. Turning on a light hurts range since it is drawing current that could be used to drive. Turning on A/C hurts range in a gas car as well. Accelerating hurts range in a gas car. Many things contribute to bringing down range in both gas and EV cars.

2) Look up the definition or read as I posted above. Has to do with completing a task. Using you example the better performer for a 600 mile task would likely be the car that is slower from 0-60. For 1-300 miles the S63 wins, for more than 300 the other wins. See the difference between me and the rest of the world is when someone asks what is the best "anything"I ask for the parameters. Making blind statements of X is better than Y is not smart if you don't know the parameters. You telling me what 99% of people would say is irrelevant. I have already done something in this world that 99% of people have not.

3) Again you missed out on certain facts about the 30 minute stop. Yes I made a 30 minute stop when I wanted to and where I wanted to. When I spend $100K+ I expect to dictate what happens. You have to make a 45 minute stop where they have put the Supercharger and are forced to eat what is next door. I don't do those things in the world. I have worked far too hard in this world for someone to tell me or dictate where I eat. Please though, you two convince yourselves that is where you wanted to go.

4) Your kids can't make it four hours? I had a 12 year old and 10 year old and a 3 year old and all made it. Guess my kids are outperforming as well. Making excuses again and telling us what can't be done. I see a lot of people in the world telling me what can't be done, right before I do it.

5) I work all over the US and have gone over 80mph in Virginia, Maryland, New York, Mass, Connecticut, Maine. There you go again saying what can't be done. Oh and I have been in those areas and have been passed many times so you telling me no one drives over 65 is laughable.

6) More rhetoric with my bladder exploding. Funny that Me, my wife and three kids can go four hours without having to go to the restroom. If we did have to go we would pull off wherever we felt necessary and I would be able to get full range within 5 minutes or so. You are the one that has to tell little Johnny that we are almost tot the SuperCharger. Can he hold it for 20 more minutes. Again you fail to actually see the reality and the big picture. Anytime my kids need to go to the restroom I can pull off, get full range, and let them handle their business. If you have to do it prior to a SC then you just added another 10 minutes to your already much longer trip.

7) As for wasting time filling up there is a lot of wasted time in this world. What is the difference between wasting 25 minutes in a coffee shop and 5 minutes at a gas station or 30 minutes at a coffee shop? Nothing. What is the difference between you wasting 30 minutes at home and me wasting 25 minutes at home and 5 minutes at a gas station? Nothing. However there is a huge difference in both of us trying to go from point A to point B. Both have the same goal which is to get to the destination. I can do it substantially faster than you on long trips. As far as cost your Tesla costs you more in energy than Gas costs me for my car. I know you won't be able to figure this out, but it is the reality. I would be willing to bet pink slips on this.

In theory from 1-150 (give or take) miles we probably get to the destination at the same time. From 150-300 I probably beat you by a few minutes. As we start going above 300 miles and they are substantial minutes.

In the end the Tesla is a great daily driver that gives you a full tank every morning. They have big QA issues to overcome (as they build up mass production), and their fit and finish is tens of thousands of dollars behind. Range is average (when talking about real world driving), but for the daily driver is more than enough. I personally like the styling, but I know other here have issues. They need to get the range to around 450 miles which means about 350 in real world situations with all of the thing listed in my previous post. They need to put more technology into the car (cooled seats, better SC GPS, better seats, etc). Putting a 17" screen does not mean you have great technology. It is a start.

PeterUbers

I like ham sammiches

drsaab

I appreciate your views and many ppl share the same thoughts. But the question was stated as after you have driven the Tesla...why MB. So you should go and test drive one if they have that set up in Sweden and see why this is the first new american car company created in the last 70 years. It is very different.

drsaab

1. Yes, at 25wh the ipad would drain the car battery in 3400 hours, your point is a great one! Will definitely effect range.

2. Ok sure, What 99% of ppl say is irrelevant to you, but not to the 99 %? I am making a general statement about performance to most ppl. I already said that is not what you are judging on, that is fine with me.

3. Agreed, supercharger stop dictates break options for efficiency. This has been a non-issue for me and if it bothers you, ok, point noted.

4. I will gladly donate my kids to prove this point, you can clean up the mess in your back seat.

5. I never said you can not go over 80mph. I said in VA it is a craze fine, and we never cruise at 4 hrs constantly for 85mph. Daytime traffic speed does not allow that here, you are free to come experiment. Drive from DC to NYC set your distronic to 85 and see how much you can hit that speed.

6: same as 4

7. I agree, time wasted is subjective. Some feel 30 min in a coffee shop is time not wasted, some feel 30 min drinking coffee in the car with the AC and music on at a supercharger is time not wasted, its all subjective. It costs me exactly $100 in home electricity to travel 3000 miles. I am not sure how gas is cheaper but since "I won't be able to figure that out" , I am fine with that

The QA issues are always improving, brand wise it is way ahead of MB on the "polls" so this can be debated both ways obviously.

Landers

Re 1) Yes looking at iPad only makes perfect sense. Nice logic there. I simply put in everything (or mostly) that could possibly affect range from .01% to XX%. In the real world people usually car about actual numbers not numbers on paper.

Re 2) I judge perfromance on many things. I have yet to know of one person whose main reason was to buy a car for 0-60 performance. The main reason I have found each and every person to buy a car is to get them from point A to point B. The Tesla is as good as anything when it comes from 0-150 miles and like the S Class is better than most. It's performance suffers greatly from 150+. When 99% of people start buying a car for 0-60 as the main reason then you have a point.

Re 3) Great. You get dictated to. In my world I prefer to do the dictating.

Re 4) Get better performing kids or at the very least teach your kids. Like I said I have 3. Amazing that they can do multiple 4 hour drives throughout the year.

Re 5) I also never said 4 hrs at 85. However there are definitely 30 minute stretches at that speed and one may lower down to 75. Even so the range numbers are at 65. I don't know anyone anywhere that only drives 65 max on long trips.

Re 6) It costs me $0 to travel 3000 miles because I don't pay for my gas. I would however have to pay for my electricity if I had an electric car.


There you go again on the QA using bad data. Again. MB is far worse than Tesla as a brand because they have so many cars and not all of those cars are $100K cars. It is like saying everyone in LA makes more than everyone is Dallas because the average income in LA is higher than in Dallas.


I find it funny that the two of you come up with so many excuses as to why something doesn't matter. MB has none. It lags behind in certain instances compared to the Tesla, but it exceeds in so many more and makes a long trip much less painful and much easier to deal with. Or in other words much more relaxing.

drsaab

Ok, I get it, You like to dictate to people, and I need new better performing kids, I am not capable of going over 65mph in my car, and you don't pay for gas in your 100k car so no one should educate or enlighten you on anything else out there in the automobile world.

You should take a step back and just read what you wrote. It is very Rude, insulting, and arrogant.

You come off as someone who really thinks they are better than everyone, and I am done responding to your posts.



No one in 400 posts has been so unprofessional. Enjoy your S550.

Landers

I only responded to what you wrote. I would quit responding if I were you too. You end up looking foolish with each and every post.

1) You post that kids can't seem to go four hours in a car straight. Not true. I can give literally 20 situations that are over 4 hrs where all of my kids and many kids who were not mine who we have traveled with that made it four hours or more without having to go to the restroom.
2) I want to be enlightened and have been regarding Teslas. They are a great commuter car and for 150 miles or less they are top notch and close to as good as anything out there.
3) You were the one that brought up cost when you said you were $50 ahead of me. That isn't true in my case.
4) The range is what the range is. You touting 300 miles is as silly as me touting it is 100 miles (what it might be with massive amounts of acceleration and wind and hills, and speeds above 65mph). In all likelihood it is around 150-175 on longer trips throughout the US. That doesn't mean one can't get to 225 miles, nor does it mean that with some very aggressive driving it could be as low as 140. In real driving world situations it is around 150-200.
5) Unprofessional? This ain't a job. This is an opinion forum and if you can't stand the heat of other's opinions regardless of what they are and what they say then go to a kid forum.
6) You are the one that stated an incorrect opinion that drawing from a battery in any amount does not affect range.
7) I have read some points regarding the Tesla from Tesla supporters that are spot on and simply don't comment on them because they are correct. Me reading 50 things and commenting on 5 or 6 doesn't make me as argumentative. When I read some BS though I will call someone out.
8) Had a person said I am willing to be inconvenienced during a road trip and am willing to accept that where I have to stop is dictated then I have no issue. Saying those things don't matter or have actual impact is ridiculous.


Personally I am looking for the reality in any car comparison. Not what is on paper, but what is. AN example in Telsa's favor is the tax break. If someone wants to use the tax break to adjust how much the Tesla costs that is a reality. If someone wanted to say the Teslas was more expensive and did not take that into account I would support that and made sure they knew the reality.


Make correct statements and people won't attack what you say. I believe I made an incorrect statement in this thread regarding Tesla. I was corrected and I own the mistake.

WEBSRFR

I know Landers was distraught that I didn't reply to his list of fallacies last night so I just found some time to respond to his concerns only to find out you have point by point addressed pretty much everything I wanted to say.

All I'd like to add is that the statement Landers made about how plugging in an iPad would affect the range of a Model S shows he has absolutely no concept about the amount of energy on a Tesla 85Kwh battery pack. It's a staggering amount of energy.

To put the amount of energy in a Model S in perspective, a typical 120V household AC outlet is typically 15 Amps, 20 Maximum. What do you think is the amount of Amps drawn by a Model S P85D at maximum acceleration? Try 1,300 Amps. It is a crazy amount of power. The Ludicrous Mode 2.8s update is possible because they just developed an exotic microprocessor controlled pyro fuse that can increase the current draw to 1,500 Amps. To put that in perspective an iPad charger might draw 2 Amps.

Landers

As has already been pointed out I absolutely realize that range isn't going from 225 to 200 using 2 iPads. However using any electricity affects (little or lots) range. Me putting in many parameters of a trip was to be complete and detailed more so than saying the iPad charging pushes the Tesla over the edge. I simply painted an accurate picture of a road trip. TO refresh that road trip consisted of speeds up to 90, 600lbs of people and/or luggage, wind, A/C on full, hills, 95+ degrees outside, 2 kids using iPads plugged in and a phone charging. I can go into more detail if there were any that mattered. If you want to say the iPads and phones are negligible and don't need to be mentioned I am Ok with that. I have yet to see a situation where less detail was better than more detail for comparison purposes. How much and how little any of those things affects the range is agreeable (or debatable). You saying you are going to refute point by point and then making a statement that an iPad has very little affect on range isn't close to refuting points. Keep reaching though.

The funny thing is my wife should be in the market for a SUV in about a year or two from now. It may be a model X, but I won't pretend that the model X doesn't have shortcomings, nor will I tout its 300 mile range. It will likely have the same range which is about 150-200 miles max between charges in real world driving. I love the gullwing doors on it also, and since we never put anything on top, nor do we have a bunch of snow that likely won't be an issue.

WEBSRFR

This is why I held off on responding to him.

There's no point in arguing with someone who feels plugging in an iPad will have any meaningful effect on range even after point out how the power draw in Amps is essentially meaningless. He still insists a car's performance is measured on how many hours you can mindlessly drive a car without stopping or how small kids should be expected to not request a bathroom break for 4+ hours. Tough to argue with logic like that.

I'm not going to respond to any more of his posts either as his points have all been addressed as well as they could be in a respectful manner at this point.

That's a great point you made about the time saved in never having to get gas again. It takes about 8 minutes to fuel up a gasoline car and you generally have to spend about another 10 minutes going to the gas station and back so that's 18 minutes saved every week and that amounts to 12-15 hours a year spent on getting gasoline for a car. 95% of the driving we do is courtesy of the car being charged at home overnight in our garage.

Landers

Here we go. You need to look up the definition of performance. It is task oriented and is regarded as finishing a task first (so to speak).

Performance of each car from 0-60 (or quarter mile) and the Tesla wins hands down. Performance to complete a 50 mile task and likely both are equal. Performance to complete a 300 mile trip and the MB wind hands down. Therefore for you to say the Tesla is a higher performance car it simply isn't true. It depends on the task. If the iPad has no meaningful affect on the range then it doesn't. OK. Funny that you have issue with me giving a detailed description of the trip and focusing on that.

Furthermore do kids request bathroom breaks on 4 hour trips? Sure and I have had to stop. Having a 3 year old means you make the stop when asked to. So if you are 40 miles from your SC then you are out of luck and are going to stop before that and then again to charge at SC. No matter what when in the MB and you are asked to stop you can efficiently get full range again pretty much no matter where you are. Finally there are still instances where one can easily drive 4 hours with no break. The fact that you can't see that is funny though.

Finally I completely agree that 8 minutes are wasted pumping gas. 10 minutes to drive to gas station? Are you nuts? Most people I know stop on the way to various destinations. You do realize you are allowed to do that? However the 8 minutes is reality (or five IMO). If I find that I don't have the time to afford to waste 8 minutes then that may be a sticking point. Ironically according to the C&D blog he wasted 6 hours (one way) by driving a Tesla. That is around 45 fill ups for the year. Add in the trip back and he wasted even more time.

Totally agree that being able to fill up your car at home is an absolute great perk.

Lets face it in the end you have a very good car that has extremely limited range where one must deal with inefficiencies on trips over 150 miles. Some of that time is made up with the major efficiencies for short trips and the fact that you can "fill up" at home. You also have the advantage of having very few moving parts which means less costly repairs, although replacing a battery down the road will eat some of that, but at least you don't have to deal with BS mechanics and dealerships trying to rip you off. The car lacks interior refinement and is moving in the right direction, but is years behind. Range and interior improvement are the two biggest necessities IMO. Add 150 miles to the range and make a great interior and it is likely the best car on the road.

714Merc

Can someone please blow up this abomination of a thread? 400 posts to state people cross shopping from S-Klasse to Model S gain electric drive and sacrifice on luxury amenities? When MB does go full edrive those people will all return to Mercedes. In the meantime, I look forward to my first dip into electric with my future 2018 S550e...

WEBSRFR

You do realize you have the option of not reading and posting on this thread right? It seems you can't help participating in a thread that you wish did not exist...

Given the increasing Model S sales figures, apparently for people who opt for a Model S over an S Class, they are satisfied with the overall offering including the modern luxury and interior amenities offered by Tesla. Having said that there is no question that the S Class interior is more luxurious but we didn't feel we gave up on anything significant for all that we prefer about the Tesla.

I'd love for nothing more than for Mercedes to build a premium EV. Not a hobbled BS hybrid or a range and performance stunted car like the B Class. It's like they don't want to build a high performance and long range EV as then they might have a hard time selling their gasoline cars...

Germancar1

What is the point of pointing this out again? Didn't you make a fool of yourself last time with this? Sales make a car better to you? Either way the Tesla's prices don't exactly line up with the S-Class either. You really think Tesla is doing something to Mercedes S-Class sales? You are so lost it isn't funny anymore.

M

WEBSRFR

I was responding to another forum member in the context of a discussion we were having. I'm sorry you have ADD to step into this with insults throwing and calling other forum members fools.

I won't justify your insults with a response though your response shows that you are clueless about the average selling price of a Model S. Next time you want to engage in discourse may I suggest that you approach with a bit more civility. If you want to call people fools, maybe you should look at yourself in the mirror so you know what one looks like.

PeterUbers

There aren't many ads or commercials for $100k+ cars in general

jenz

People need to stop replying

WEBSRFR

Fair point but as a brand Mercedes sponsors and advertises quite heavily and it all helps the brand and their entire lineup. I have seen ads for the S Class though on TV and print publications but you are right in that advertising tends to be limited and more targeted but it is there.

Though not about the S Class, this is my favorite Mercedes commercial.

Germancar1

Too late you just did and to make matters worse you still didn't even comprehend what I said. I was just asking if the humiliation that you suffered wasn't enough. I didn't call you a fool. I don't really care if you justify anything or not. I'm just shocked at downright stupid things you're still posting here to justify your purchase of a Tesla. Since you didn't and/or couldn't answer the question I'll draw my own conclusions based on your series of ridiculous posts here. You act like the S-Class and the Panamera are suffering because of your car.

M

PeterUbers

Lol... Good vid, good points

We also have to remember that Mercedes has been around for decades and has tons of capital with which to advertise, and Tesla is a brand-new company and it is remarkable how successful they are considering they are brand-new car company and they haven't advertised one bit. I couldn't agree with you more that this speaks so much to the quality of the product that they produce however in a couple decades I am sure they will be producing S class quality in addition to all of the tech that they currently offer and more.

Germancar1

You're kidding right? The quality of the product? It hasn't been around long enough yet to prove that it is quality. The car is a rolling experiment, not some time proven quality item. It is a different approach to the car that is what is making it popular in addition to how it is marketed. It ain't got squat to do with quality because they actual car is anything but that. Outside of the gee-whiz engineering the build and quality of the car is lacking, especially compared to other cars of this price.

M

WEBSRFR

When there were rumors that Apple might buy out Tesla, I was really worried as I'm not a big fan of Apple. I know Apple would have happily outsourced or moved the entire operation to China if they could to save a buck.

I had always wished that Tesla and Mercedes established a deeper partnership. It seems for now they've decided to focus on each other's products than any big partnership but I am glad that the Model S has many components from Mercedes or one of their suppliers. In fact when I first test drove a Model S, it felt very much like a Mercedes. Later I found out some of the same German engineers that fine-tuned Mercedes suspensions worked on the Tesla suspension. In many ways Tesla has a lot to thank Mercedes for. It was Mercedes who essentially bailed out Tesla with a cash infusion when they were in dire straits and Mercedes' influence is probably responsible for the quality of the Model S product. Too bad they didn't cut a deal to buy the entire S Class interior from Mercedes when they were shopping for parts from the Mercedes bin

It's remarkable what Tesla has accomplished. My dad has been a Tesla doubter for years and whenever our family gets together we've had some interesting debates on this topic, as you can imagine. Just yesterday he finally conceded that he was impressed with what they had accomplished.

I've never imagined buying an American made car and I'm really proud of the fact that we managed to build this car in America. When the Giga Factory goes online. it is slated to be now larger than even Boeing's manufacturing facility, and it will hopefully herald America getting back into manufacturing and engineering great products like we used to. The Tesla story likely would not have been possible in any other country.

UrBusted

The Model S sales may be going up, but the S Class sales have in no way been going down. Last time I checked, chauffeur companies in locations such as London weren't replacing their S Class' with Model S'. You do see a small amount of companies choosing the Model S as one of their multiple vehicles, as well as the A8 and the 7 Series, but most of the time it is the S Class'. Go to Central London, Germany, or any country outside of America. You keep saying the Model S is the best selling sedan in the US, but what about the other 30 odd countries selling both the Model S and the S Class? The majority of Teslas sales came from America, whereas the majority of S Class' sales came from outside of the US.
Also, I don't suppose an Admin can end this thread? Literally the same thing is being repeated. The two tesla owners, Web and drsaab, and us s class owners bought our vehicles for different reasons.
S Class - Luxury Sedan
Model S - Performance sedan

clembo

WEBSRFR - Are you trying to save all of us misguided souls who enjoy driving the W222 more than a Tesla? Why bother? To quote you (not verbatim - I'm not looking back to your old posts, but anyone can), I think you said something like - "I feel the drama of high performing internal combustion cars is obnoxious and of poor taste". My goodness - the TASTE POLICE have arrived and they're driving Tesla's!!! Arrest me now taste police! I love my cars, and yes I own a few Harley's as well, and a boat with 2 ICE engines - by gast I must be quite a knuckle dragger.

You continue to avoid a few simple facts - that most electricity is generated by burning fossil fuels. That people in Tesla's can't drive from NYC to Boston on a charge, unless they don't use the heat in their cars, that was a fun trip for some people last February

And Tesla sold something like 10,500 cars in Q1, and still lost about $150 million. That is a loss of about $15K per car. Add that to the federal incentive of $7,500 on each car, and many thousands of incentives paid by many states, Teslas is certainly the top selling manufacturer of cars that lose money on each sale, even though the government is paying each buyer - while increasing our deficit. Maybe you don't mind every taxpayor paying for your car, but I can pay for mine all by myself.

I hope Elon is reading this forum, you deserve a commission from him for your persistance. But most of us think you're just silly. Enjoyable reading, but so are Cartoons.