Keep thinking the Model S competes with the E Class. It didn't for us and it won't for many. Most Model S vehicles are sold at or over $100K when all the options are added up and unlike Mercedes vehicles there are no discounts and everyone pays the sticker price.

Time and time again Tesla has discontinued the lower trim level options because few customers buy them. They discontinued the 40, and then the 60, and now the 70 is on the verge of being discontinued as well. The Model S is about the same length as the standard wheelbase S Class and it is actually wider than an S Class.

Those who still think the Model S does not compete for sales with the S Class as S Class sales continue to go down and Model S sales continue to go up in the same price segment are living in denial.

OK, fair play, but currently the S Class is the market premium luxury car segment leader across the globe, and is the benchmark for other premium luxury cars to beat in terms of luxury. When the Model S matches the luxury of the various S Class' models, then most of us will be happy to buy a Tesla and THEN you can claim its segment leader.

WEBSRF,


Caveat--this is not personal just how I see it.


I see you still work for Tesla



Your math skills are brilliant. So in your world 206.5 inches is about the same as 196 inches. Interesting. By my calculations that is a difference of 10.5 inches or in your world "about the same". Interesting. That is the difference between the lengths of the S Class and the Model S. The wheelbase on the S Class is 124.6 inches while the Model S is 116.5 inches or in your world about the same. I apologize in advance if my numbers are wrong but from both manufacturers websites, my numbers should be accurate.


I seem to find much of your facts wrong and your emotions for the Tesla high. So I hope Tesla pays you well since you clearly do not know math.

WEBSRFR,


Oh by the way, one of the reasons people on this site are stating the Model S competes with the E Class is a fact of math--oh, I know your not so good at that.


The length of the E Class is 192.1 inches vs. 196 for the Model S. In my world that is 3.9 inches different but in your world that must be "exactly the same". And the wheel base on the E is 113.2 inches compared to the Model S of 116.5 inches.

Is the Model S a Premium Luxury Sedan? Nope. Is it a semi premium luxury sedan? I guess so. You know what else is a semi premium luxury sedan? Oh yeah, the Mercedes E Class. Most of the people who wanted the S Class bought it within the first 3 years of sale. During this period Mercedes sold as much as 200,000' S Class'. You may have cross shopped the S Class and Model S but these vehicles weren't even made to complete the same task. The S Class is meant to be the most luxurious vehicle for it's price, which it is, whereas the Model S is meant to be a vehicle with some bits of luxury and used for driving from point 1 to point 2, while being a bit bigger than the small sedan sold by the company. The relationship between the Model S and Model 3 is the same as the E Class and C Class. If you're cross shopping a P90D and a S550 you need to decide what you're looking for in a car. A rapid machine or a luxurious gentlemans lounge.
The P85D in our eyes is below a S Class but above the E Class. It's in the same sort of range as an Audi A7, Porsche Panamera, Mercedes CLS, and the rest of the cars shown here : http://usnews.rankingsandreviews.com...ry-Large-Cars/

Guys, if the sun would orbit the earth in WEBSRFR's mind, there would be no convincing otherwise. Just deal with that.

Most news outlets place the Model S in the luxury category because of price, not for what it is and this appears to be the argument here. Discussing sales figures misses the point.

A higher price doesn't create luxury. A model S with a standard ICE engine would be a typical $60k car, simple as that.
It would compete in the 5 series/A6/E-Class/Caddy category. That said, it has a cool but not very expensive motor/drivetrain (cheaper than ICE actually), apart from the batteries.

Without a doubt, Tesla sales and lead-time are due to demand, but really only for one reason; they are the only game in town. There are no EV competitors.

I agree with WEBSKRFR; EV's are great and I can't wait for more choices.
Patiently waiting...

Unfortunately, unlike Apple, their designs are actually getting worse, not better.

To me, Model S is the expression of boring, Model X is underwhelming and the Model 3 is downright ugly. Minimalist could look better.

Didn't expect this to turn into a measuring contest

Let us agree to disagree on whether the Model S competes with the S Class but the real answer to this is in the 2015 sales chart I posted earlier. Every other ~$100K 4 door gasoline sedan that competes with the Model S lost market share to the Model S in 2015.

One is wider and the other is longer. As far as I'm concerned they are about the same size, weight and cost about the same. The bottom line is many who buy a Model S could just as well buy an S Class but based on the 2015 sales figures they didn't.

asthetically not impressed with any tesla
here-say states some technology learned from MB

model s is NOT the luxury standard as the s-class
model x- agreed extremely underwhelming, front end that doesnt know if its coming or going- strange
model 3 is a way to 'win' the heart of people, if they can sell the same technology at that price why are the rest 3 times more

driving a computer doesnt make a person smarter just makes you more vulnerable to hackers..
and that thing will literally have your entire lifestory on it

doors that 'only' close electronically is a bad thing

price point out of control- creates a sense of pseudo-luxury, like o I paid so much so it must be worth it and has that luxury-- wrong.. its not there yet..

ludacris speed sounds good but if your batt is running low, a well equipped hatchback will take it at every light and will make it home, and o if it needs gas it can stop at a gas station

the thought of running out of batt power in the middle of somewhere at a weird hour with kids in the car makes me quite uncomfortable...
if you dont have a supercharger and run out of power at home, and car batt low; o great now you cant even go get candles.. but you paid >100k for that thing.. it cant drive itself or anyone at that point...

and after 7 years (when batt warranty done) what is it going to be worth- i've asked this to a tesla rep- no answer

wait times ridiculously long

given a choice - s-class wins
calling model 's' doesnt make it an s-class and doesnt belong in the same class, they shuda picked a different name like model T or something..

my 0.02

Ah so Tesla "learned" their technology from Mercedes. So where is the Mercedes EV that benchmarks a 2012 Tesla? Oh that's right. It is about 2 years away.

What is this luxury standard? The S class used to be the sales leader for those who wanted to buy the best 4 door sedan available for around $100K. As much as we love Mercedes and still have two Mercedes vehicles in our household when it came time for us to buy the best car we could find, the Tesla Model S was a far superior choice to the S Class.

Based on 2015 sales figures in the US the S Class is no longer the standard or sales leader for this price segment. The Model S is such a compelling choice that in 2015, the one year old exterior redesign of the S Class lost in sales volume to the Model S with the exterior last designed in 2012.

Of course you are entitled to your opinion. I happen to love how the Model X looks. They still have a backlog of over 10,000 Model X orders to fulfill. I recently had the opportunity to drive a Model X and the Model X is a better SUV for urban use than a Model S is a better car. It's such an outstanding vehicle and will likely do even better than the Model S.

Really? Seriously? Why don't you ask Mercedes why the S Class costs 3X what the C Class costs. The answer is different packaging, technology, materials, and size. I happen to think the Model S is a great value and looking at the sales figures so do many other customers who buy a Model S.

Model 3 is going to be the start of the inflection point where the era of gasoline powered cars will start coming to an end, especially in the premium car segment. Good luck to Mercedes, BMW, and Audi trying to sell their gasoline powered A4s, 3 series, and the C Class competing with the Model 3. This is the segment where they make most of their revenue. Denial has caught up with the Germans.

Tesla has many layers of firewalls and security systems to guard against this. Unlike other car companies they have dedicated teams whose whole job is network security a concept quite foreign to most carmakers because when was the last time Mercedes improved features of a car they have sold with an over the air software update? That's right, never.

Ah I suppose you don't use the Internet or a smartphone.

Where did you pick this up? Tesla doors open and close automatically or manually.

Ah you are such an expert on the psychology of what other people buy with their money Luxury comes in many forms. To us having a car that can drive the vast majority of interstate driving autonomously feels luxurious compared to a car that can't do that. I also find it luxurious how every couple of months the interface and features of the car are enhanced with an over the air software update.

Wait what? A car needs energy to go? Got it Our car does not have ludicrous Mode but it does have Insane Mode but it is funny you said that as I've yet to have any issues with making various cars look really tiny in my rear view mirror at will. Save for a few exotics there's nothing out there that can even appear to make an effort to keep up if I decide to dispose of someone in day to day to day driving. I personally find this ability quite luxurious

That does sound really scary and I really hope this is not keeping you up late at night. Because Tesla owners drive all across the country to enjoy their cars and the supercharger network is set to double within the next year to offer even more charging options. Most resorts and venues we frequent actually have EV charging, usually with a premium parking spot close to the entrance to go with that as well.

People who have issues charging a Tesla are those who don't own one.

Oh my god. That is awful. It's almost like what would happen if you run out of gasoline with your gasoline powered car due to a power failure and since the gasoline pumps are powered by electricity you can't get gas. The horror

Great point. If a gasoline powered car runs out of gas, it can't be driven. If an electric car runs out of power it can't be drive either.

Yeah what's up with a $100K premium car depreciating like crazy in 7 years; right? That's outrageous. It's almost like a 7 year old S Class depreciating down to $18K in 7 years.

https://www.cars.com/vehicledetail/d...4594/overview/

This really does suck. Gasoline powered cars are made in the thousands with the hope that someone will buy it when offered with a discount. So much demand for Tesla that you have to place an order and wait for the car to be delivered because care are built to order.

Obviously. You brought up some excellent points!

I understand. So just naming it the Model S wasn't enough but they had to build a car that was so compelling that someone would buy it for the technology and features offered.

And thank you for the most enjoyable post

clearly there are personal issues here
topic asks 'why'
doesnt say this is debate

no reason to get personal about this
being unprofessional doesnt get you points

as for the post, its a mercedes forum, not sure what you expected
appreciate your loyalty to MB.

my points dont point fingers at anyone.. you have a lot of posts but clearly still need to learn the professionalism we try to maintain between members

i didnt mean any offense but obviously seem to have offended you, apologize for that..

enjoy your tesla, i have nothing against the car, it deserves its place in the market..its a forum, supposed to be able to share opnions in a friendly manner.. enjoyable to some and may not to others..

Having lots of sales doesn't mean its the standard. When it wins awards for being the best luxury car in it's segment, that's when you know it's the standard. Has the Tesla won any? Nope. Has the S Class? Numerous. I didn't know the US meant the whole market or segment. America consists of less than 5% of the world. Saying that the Model S is the market leader of the US is like me saying the S Class is the market leader in Japan, or Russia. You'd say that the Model S hasn't reached there or isn't popular there or whatever. Same case here.

agreed!
thank you!

America might consist of less than 5% of the world, especially when the oceans are considered, but time and time again it is America that invents the future and redefines an industry.

We've seen this with Apple, Google, Microsoft, the advent of the Internet, and now we are seeing a revolution of similar scale happening with Tesla that will redefine modern transportation, not just the modern car.

Just that not everyone gets quite yet what profound changes are around the horizon with automotive technology that is currently being designed and developed in America both in terms of electric propulsion and autonomous driving systems. If the Germans aren't careful they will go the way of Old Detroit and Nokia.

There is a reason the recent Tesla Model 3 reveal did not include what the steering wheel of the production car will look like. Regardless of what you personally feel about Tesla be proud of the fact that the Tesla story would not be possible in any other country. In the next 2-5 years we are going to witness some things that few would have predicted just 5 years ago.

When ever I drive our Tesla I feel like I'm driving something from the future. And the future is absolutely great!

Eh? My point was that Tesla are market leader of less than 5% of the world, while the S Class the other 95% and you're talking about American innovations. Everyone gets the "profound changes" that Tesla has done. People dumping 100k into a piece of metal sure do their research at what's car is best for them. For a lot of people, it currently isn't the Model S. We don't hate Tesla. What we do "detest" is someone trying to change our minds about something most of us have spent hours, days, or weeks in researching and trying out.
This movie's a bit more, uh, futuristic, but it shows self driving technology and what can be assumed to be electric cars : https://www.google.com/search?q=irob...bot+movie+cars

+1


WEBSRFR must believe Tesla was the first to the ball game and the US invented the world. I am a proud American but WEBSRFR has no clue about the history of electric cars. If he/she did, WEBSRFR would be a bit more humble about where Tesla ranks in the "world of electric cars". Yes, Tesla has brought an electric car to the market but jeeze. WEBSRFR must work for Tesla since no normal human would push so hard in trying to change people's beliefs. Maybe WEBSRFR is Elon Musk


Anyway, below is just a small part of the history of the electric auto. A Scottish inventor began this whole process in 1832--not an American. Like I said I am a very proud American citizen but the world does not revolve around the US WEBSRFR.


1832-1839
Scottish inventor Robert Anderson invents the first crude electric carriage powered by non-rechargeable primary cells


1835
American Thomas Davenport is credited with building the first practical electric vehicle -- a small locomotive


1899
Believing that electricity will run autos in the future, Thomas Alva Edison begins his mission to create a long-lasting, powerful battery for commercial automobiles. Though his research yields some improvements to the alkaline battery, he ultimately abandons his quest a decade later.


1900
The electric automobile is in its heyday. Of the 4,192 cars produced in the United States 28 percent are powered by electricity, and electric autos represent about one-third of all cars found on the roads of New York City, Boston, and Chicago.


1920
During the 1920s the electric car ceases to be a viable commercial product. The electric car's downfall is attributable to a number of factors, including the desire for longer distance vehicles, their lack of horsepower, and the ready availability of gasoline.


1966
Congress introduces the earliest bills recommending use of electric vehicles as a means of reducing air pollution. A Gallup poll indicates that 33 million Americans are interested in electric vehicles.

1970s
Concerns about the soaring price of oil -- peaking with the Arab Oil Embargo of 1973 -- and a growing environmental movement result in renewed interests in electric cars from both consumers and producers.

1972
Victor Wouk, the "Godfather of the Hybrid," builds the first full-powered, full-size hybrid vehicle out of a 1972 Buick Skylark provided by General Motors (G.M.) for the 1970 Federal Clean Car Incentive Program. The Environmental Protection Association later kills the program in 1976.

1975
The U.S. Postal Service purchases 350 electric delivery jeeps from AM General, a division of AMC, to be used in a test program.

1976
Congress passes the Electric and Hybrid Vehicle Research, Development, and Demonstration Act. The law is intended to spur the development of new technologies including improved batteries, motors, and other hybrid-electric components.

1988
Roger Smith, CEO of G.M. , agrees to fund research efforts to build a practical consumer electric car. G.M. teams up with California's AeroVironment to design what would become the EV1, which one employee called "the world's most efficient production vehicle." Some electric vehicle enthusiasts have speculated that the EV1 was never undertaken as a serious commercial venture by the large automaker.

1990
California passes its Zero Emission Vehicle (ZEV) Mandate, which requires two percent of the state's vehicles to have no emissions by 1998 and 10 percent by 2003. The law is repeatedly weakened over the next decade to reduce the number of pure ZEVs it requires.

1997
Toyota unveils the Prius -- the world's first commercially mass-produced and marketed hybrid car -- in Japan. Nearly 18,000 units are sold during the first production year.

1997 - 2000
A few thousand all-electric cars (such as Honda's EV Plus, G.M.'s EV1, Ford's Ranger pickup EV, Nissan's Altra EV, Chevy's S-10 EV, and Toyota's RAV4 EV) are produced by big car manufacturers, but most of them are available for lease only. All of the major automakers' advanced all-electric production programs will be discontinued by the early 2000s.

2002
G.M. and DaimlerChrysler sue the California Air Resources Board (CARB) to repeal the ZEV mandate first passed in 1990. The Bush Administration joins that suit.





WEBSRFR BELOVED TESLA:
2006

Tesla Motors publicly unveils the ultra-sporty Tesla Roadster at the San Francisco International Auto Show in November. The first production Roadsters will be sold in 2008 with a base price listing of $98,950.

And it has happened.

Many here were in denial that the Model S would outsell the S class in the same price segment in the US and that happened.

Now we learn that the Model S is outselling the S Class in the same price segment even in Western Europe. Many customers both in the US and Europe who could otherwise buy an S Class are opting for the Model S over an S Class once they experience the EV drivetrain and technology in a Model S.
Source:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/neilwint.../#2a14ab763c94

I never said Tesla invented the electric car. Just that they will be responsible for creating the inflection point that will cause all cars to go electric. And that really is their goal.

What other car company has open sourced all their patents and dared their competitors to use their technology and build a better car? This is what Tesla has done.

I'm sure operating system software existed worldwide before Microsoft, I am sure electronic signals were exchanged all over the world before the Internet, I am sure software queried a database to deliver search results before Google, and I'm sure phones with high resolution screens existed before Apple all over the world.

My point is over the last several decades whenever major technology breakthroughs are made and an entire industry is reinvented, it has been due to an American company. Elon Musk has said many times over that the Tesla story would not have been possible in any other country.

Where America leads when it comes to technology and innovation, the world follows.

I have A LOT of questions for this source, which doesn't use figures obtained from Tesla(no one does), nor Mercedes. From Q1-Q3, January-September 2015, in Western Europe, Tesla sold 9,729 cars. This means that in October 2015, November 2015 and December 2015 they sold over 5,000 cars. It is plausible though. Also, go onto that link. They think a Mercedes CLS is a S Class.
Another source shows that the S Class is still outselling the Model S, which I find a bit more credible than one which thinks a CLS is a S Class. http://left-lane.com/european-car-sa...-benz-s-class/
16583 sales of the S Class, compared to 15,169 sales of the Model S. This source goes into much more detail and breaks down each month, and country.
http://left-lane.com/european-car-sales-data/tesla/
Now, what all of us think is the correct competitor of the Tesla Model S, the Mercedes E Class, is way ahead of the Model S in sales in Europe, with over 84,000 sales in the same year.

If you continue to think that the Model S competes with the E Class you are simply in denial. We did not as much as look at an E Class when we were looking to buy our previous car. They've made the E Class into an insipid product.

There is a price increase coming for the Model S BTW. They will be updating it shortly. Going forward at the same price range as the S Class, the Model S will be even more competitive with the planned refinements. Already even without those refinements the Model S is outselling the S Class in the US in the same price range given that anyone who bought a Model S could have bought an S Class so at the least Mercedes is failing to offer a compelling premium car for a large number of customers who are spending around $100K for a vehicle.

The Tesla product that will compete with the E Class is going to be the Model 3. Which will start around $35-40K but with options go up to about $75-80K. When Model 3 sales ramp up, Mercedes and the Germans won't know what hit them as they have yet to release a car that can compete with a 4 year old Tesla.

And apparently Daimler shareholders are very unhappy that Mercedes still has nothing to compete with Tesla.

It is hilarious that Daimler CEO Dieter Zetsche's reply was to say they have a bunch of BS hybrids that they are developing. Let's see how those idiotic hybrids work out for them. They keep building BS hybrids no one wants to buy and their answer is to double down on hybrids. It seems they won't have a real electric vehicle on offer until the end of the decade and by then Mercedes would have lost quite a bit of market share to Tesla at the high end, mid end, and the low end.
Source:
http://electrek.co/2016/04/07/tesla-...r-shareholder/

My prediction---if WEBSRFR is right and Tesla controls the world, MB or another major car company OR a partnership of the major car companies will simply buy Tesla. Daimler simply could not vote on buying Tesla last night since there was too much fighting going on over not having enough sausages for all the attendees.


Since WEBSRFR thinks Tesla will change the world, the wise companies will sit back to see how this plays out and eventually make their move to "take Tesla out". This electric auto story does not start with Tesla and will not end with Tesla. This is a continuing piece of history that began in the early 1800s. I would have more good to say about Tesla if it were not for the people like WEBSRFR that think everything is about Tesla and Tesla will change the world over night. I think Tesla electric cars are a cool concept but the true test will be the mass market of which many people cannot even afford a $35000 car much less a $100,000 car. Just because I and people like WEBSRFR can afford these cars it is going to take people of all walks of life to make this electric car shift from combustion engines. This will take much longer than many people think. Just look at the history.

On last count this morning, Tesla received more than 325,000 Model 3 reservations in just one week, worth about $14B in future sales. By the time the Model 3 comes out next year they will likely have over half a million and likely close to a million reservations for the Model 3. Staggering to imagine such demand for a new product. Realize based on 2014 sales figures that is about the entirety of Mercedes C Class and E Class sales combined.

https://www.daimler.com/documents/co...lance-2015.pdf

With the current 325,000 reservations Tesla just surpassed Apple for the most successful product launch. The announcement of the Model 3 makes the single biggest one-week launch of any product ever making a Tesla EV more desirable than anything ever offered for sale by anyone.

Rather than someone else buying out Tesla, what Tesla should do is outsource some of the Model 3 production to some of the German manufacturers as pretty soon the Germans will have plenty of excess production capability sitting idle as more people buy EVs

All this has been accomplished on the merits of what a great car the Model S is as Tesla spends nothing on advertising and all they have to offer is their reputation for innovation.

All Mercedes needs to do is retrofit the tesla battery, etc, for a full electric vehicle and it would kill every market.

I will say the numbers of refundable deposits is unprecedented in the auto business.


But you do know they are "refundable" deposits. Good for Tesla to have a big interest free loan but maybe all these people that put deposits down will not follow through. The interest free loan is good for Daimler when they buy Tesla

Fair point but if you look at this history of Tesla product launches this is how they have always released products.

To date not only do most of the preorders follow through, many more people buy the product once it is released so the preorders are certainly a good indication of minimum demand considering additional orders that will come in when the product is available.

On this point I agree with you completely but why are they not doing it?

Certainly there are hundreds of thousands of people who are looking to buy a well designed electric vehicle and waiting for Tesla to ramp up production.

There are tens of billions to be made in selling electric vehicles while in the premium car segment Mercedes S class sales are falling.

Perhaps this has to do with battery supply. Realize when the Tesla Giga Factory is fully operational they will build in their one battery factory the equivalent of the entire world's production capacity of batteries. Mercedes will have to source their own batteries somewhere.

It will soon become obvious how prescient Tesla's investment in their battery factory was.

And as soon as Mercedes releases their first real EV, they will have a hard time selling the rest of their cars sporting smoke stacks. Perhaps this is the real reason they are dragging their feet. They have so much invested in ICE technology and they are trying to prolong the end of that technology as long as they can.