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So the other day I read some interesting news about a city with a metro area population about 5.5 million that is about to outright ban all diesel cars due to pollution and adverse effects to the health of its citizens.
What city do you think that is?
Try, Stuttgart Germany. The home of Mercedes and Porsche. Diesel will be the first to die and gasoline combusting cars will be next.
Porsche, Audi, BMW, and Mercedes are winding down combusting R&D and redirecting tens of billions in funds to developing EVs before Tesla creates an insurmountable lead in the EV segment.
Also Porsche just joined Formula E, the all-electric racing series and so did Mercedes-Benz. Both Porsche and Mercedes joined Formula E by leaving the World Endurance Championship combusting car race. Audi already took this step last year.
Basically within 10 years the majority of Mercedes vehicles will be electric and will drive like a Tesla.
WEBSRFR or do I mean NOSTRADAMUS
WEBSRFR,
You are so full of sh??. You just decide to spread crap that promotes Tesla. You are simply pathetic and anything you say cannot be believed.
The story is not what you say it is.
A German court on Friday, July 28th, ruled on an environmental group law suit named DUH (Enivironmental Action and Client Earth). DUH got a ruling to ban older diesel cars on very high pollution days. DUH brough this lawsuit 2 months after the VW diesel scandal. So since then, manufacturers have put a plan together to retrofit the older diesel cars to fit the more stringent emission standards. Additionally, this ruling will be appealed.
WEBSRFR,
Did California ban automobiles when they increased emission standards? Of course not.
You are simply an idiot that spews Tesla propaganda. No one on this site should believe anything you say. Simple as that!
2015 S550 Palladium/Deep Sea Blue, 2016 Tesla Model S 70D, 2015 Volvo XC70
ICE is still improving pretty markedly, for now. This article mentions that the new 2.5L 4-cyl in the 2018 Camry reaches 40% thermal efficiency and 41mpg highway. I checked and this is up from 33mpg for the 2017 2.5L! Neither is turbocharged. "By changing the angle of the intake valve, widening the angle between the intake and exhaust valve, using modified pistons and laser cladded valve seats, the air/fuel mixture tumbles into the cylinder in a swirling motion. The swirl improves combustion, resulting in more power and lower emissions."
OTOH EVs are making improvements too, in battery cost/density.
ICE is still improving pretty markedly, for now. This article mentions that the new 2.5L 4-cyl in the 2018 Camry reaches 40% thermal efficiency and 41mpg highway. I checked and this is up from 33mpg for the 2017 2.5L! Neither is turbocharged. "By changing the angle of the intake valve, widening the angle between the intake and exhaust valve, using modified pistons and laser cladded valve seats, the air/fuel mixture tumbles into the cylinder in a swirling motion. The swirl improves combustion, resulting in more power and lower emissions."
OTOH EVs are making improvements too, in battery cost/density.
Combusting vehicles will begin their demise sooner than people realize. Interesting that some major German cities are already considering banning diesel cars in just a few years due to smog and the health problems they create by poisoning the air.
It is interesting to note the recent news about the Volkswagen brand CEO pretty much admitting that Tesla will be their main competition going forward. VW, with all their resources, are unable to match Tesla's capabilities and technology. And VW is the world's largest carmaker by sales. They finally get what Tesla is doing.
This is along the lines of what Mercedes themselves said about Tesla recently in that they expect it to be until the mid 2020s by the time they can catch up with Tesla in terms of technology.
And in the meantime Tesla is innovating at the speed of software.
Basically if you want to see what all moderns cars will be like in 10 years, drive a Tesla.
Asked who VW’s main competitors are, Diess told an internal company publication: “In the old world it is Toyota, Hyundai, and the French carmakers. In the new world it is Tesla."
I don't know about you guys but when I drove from San Diego to Las Vegas I didn't see one single Tesla.
It was hot going over there and it was continuously uphill. It was like a 5 hour drive.
Then I researched a bit about on how Tesla users make it to Las Vegas. The Tesla owners had like 20 lists that they got to do to make it to Vegas.
"you got to charge here first etc etc, make sure you do this etc etc or else you might need to call a tow truck blah blah blah"
I think an improvement in the batteries is what Tesla needs. But for now I am ok with an ICE car.
2015 S550 Palladium/Deep Sea Blue, 2016 Tesla Model S 70D, 2015 Volvo XC70
Originally Posted by llcd
I don't know about you guys but when I drove from San Diego to Las Vegas I didn't see one single Tesla.
It was hot going over there and it was continuously uphill. It was like a 5 hour drive.
Then I researched a bit about on how Tesla users make it to Las Vegas. The Tesla owners had like 20 lists that they got to do to make it to Vegas.
"you got to charge here first etc etc, make sure you do this etc etc or else you might need to call a tow truck blah blah blah"
I think an improvement in the batteries is what Tesla needs. But for now I am ok with an ICE car.
I own both an ICE and a Tesla and think that for someone who sometimes drives long distances, Tesla is good as a second car, but not as the only car for a family. Some long distance trips are theoretically doable with Tesla's superchargers, but using them involves detours, sometimes long ones, plus time lost in charging.
2015 S550 Palladium/Deep Sea Blue, 2016 Tesla Model S 70D, 2015 Volvo XC70
Originally Posted by WEBSRFR
Basically if you want to see what all moderns cars will be like in 10 years, drive a Tesla.
IMO in 10 years, all or almost all volume car manufacturers will have one or more EVs in their product line. But also IMO in 10 years, most volume car companies will still be selling new hybrid and/or ICE cars too.
I don't know about you guys but when I drove from San Diego to Las Vegas I didn't see one single Tesla.
It was hot going over there and it was continuously uphill. It was like a 5 hour drive.
Then I researched a bit about on how Tesla users make it to Las Vegas. The Tesla owners had like 20 lists that they got to do to make it to Vegas.
"you got to charge here first etc etc, make sure you do this etc etc or else you might need to call a tow truck blah blah blah"
I think an improvement in the batteries is what Tesla needs. But for now I am ok with an ICE car.
How strange. What you said comes across as a bunch of unsubstantiated FUD.
Let's look at some actual facts, shall we? With only 18 minutes of charging time required, this route is as easy for a Tesla as taking away market share from Mercedes
Distance: 332.7 miles
Driving Time: 5:00 (hours)
Charging Time: 0:18 (minutes)
Total Trip Time: 5:18 (hours)
Total Energy Used 98.4 kWh (328 "Rated Miles")
Average Efficiency: 296 Wh/mile
Net Elevation Change: 1958 feet
There are 4 Tesla superchargers along the way. You need to stop at just one for 18 minutes.
<<Asked who VW’s main competitors are, Diess told an internal company publication: “In the old world it is Toyota, Hyundai, and the French carmakers. In the new world it is Tesla." >>
IMO, people's first reason to buy a car is because of its looks, and in the old world, it's Toyota that stole the looks of Mercedes to make Lexus, and in the new world, it's Tesla that stole the looks of Porsche Panamera to model the model S.
Google the images of the sideviews of Porsche Panamera and Tesla Model S to see for yourself.
2015 S550 Palladium/Deep Sea Blue, 2016 Tesla Model S 70D, 2015 Volvo XC70
Originally Posted by WEBSRFR
How strange. What you said comes across as a bunch of unsubstantiated FUD.
Let's look at some actual facts, shall we? With only 18 minutes of charging time required, this route is as easy for a Tesla as taking away market share from Mercedes
Distance: 332.7 miles
Driving Time: 5:00 (hours)
Charging Time: 0:18 (minutes)
Total Trip Time: 5:18 (hours)
Total Energy Used 98.4 kWh (328 "Rated Miles")
Average Efficiency: 296 Wh/mile
Net Elevation Change: 1958 feet
There are 4 Tesla superchargers along the way. You need to stop at just one for 18 minutes.
Your analysis works only if there is a charger at the destination. If there isn't, the car has 258mi less range than when it started, and the driver needs to charge up somewhere, which will typically take 1+ hour of additional charging time, plus some time for a possible detour to the charger. And in some cases, waiting time for a charger.
Your analysis works only if there is a charger at the destination. If there isn't, the car has 258mi less range than when it started, and the driver needs to charge up somewhere, which will typically take 1+ hour of additional charging time, plus some time for a possible detour to the charger. And in some cases, waiting time for a charger.
Last time I checked, there is electricity everywhere in Las Vegas Most people who reach Las Vegas after driving for 5+ hours will find something entertaining to do while their car charges... The post I replied to stated how it is supposedly such an ordeal to drive a Tesla to Las Vegas so I was just responding to that false assertion by pointing out how easy it was to make that drive in a Tesla.
Just about every resort and hotel we visit now has EV chargers so we usually leave the hotel with a full charge the next morning.
So we have already established that you only need to charge for 18 minutes on the way to Las Vegas. So what to do when you get there? Personally, as a Tesla owner, we would stay at a hotel or resort with a "Tesla Destination Charger." These are a collection of literally thousands of hotels, resorts and B&Bs across the US that offer charging just for Tesla customers.
Or someone can pick from one of the MANY available EV chargers available ALL OVER Las Vegas.
2015 S550 Palladium/Deep Sea Blue, 2016 Tesla Model S 70D, 2015 Volvo XC70
Originally Posted by WEBSRFR
So we have already established that you only need to charge for 18 minutes on the way to Las Vegas. So what to do when you get there? Personally, as a Tesla owner, we would stay at a hotel or resort with a "Tesla Destination Charger." These are a collection of literally thousands of hotels, resorts and B&Bs across the US that offer charging just for Tesla customers.
Or someone can pick from one of the MANY available EV chargers available ALL OVER Las Vegas.
The green ones on your map are public and SLOW. While others might differ, I consider any limitation in my CHOICE of activities or hotel (based on charging availability) to be an additional COST of ownership. So, on a hypothetical San Diego to Las Vegas trip, I'd take my W222 over the Tesla. For shorter trips I'm more indifferent.
Back in March I spent a number of days taking my daughter on college visits that were within driving distance of our home, ranging from 1.75 to 4 hours each way. Took the W222 every time.
A relative of mine in the LA area recently got rid of his Model S in favor of a Porsche 911. His biggest reason...an experience driving to Sacramento in the MS...detours to chargers, plus charging time.
2015 S550 Palladium/Deep Sea Blue, 2016 Tesla Model S 70D, 2015 Volvo XC70
Originally Posted by Wassaby
I can drive a gas engine car for 200.000 miles in 20 years. I don't think that is possible with EV cars.
200k miles certainly is possible, but I don't think any modern EVs were introduced more than 20 years ago, so we'll have to wait on that one.
If you are referencing battery degradation, this isn't some cheapo external powerpack for a cellphone. One proof point is this chart (a dropdown at the upper right of the chart lets you switch from charge cycles to miles driven). Another proof point is mentioned on the same page...there is a company offering shared rides between SoCal and Las Vegas (funny how that should come up again) which reached 200k miles in one of its Teslas, with 6% battery degradation.
And P.S. you can bet that cumulative maintenance costs on a 200k mile ICE will be many times those on a 200k EV. Did you know that annual maintenance inspections on a Tesla are OPTIONAL?...not doing them does not void the warranty, which for the battery and drive unit are 8 years UNLIMITED miles.
I can drive a gas engine car for 200.000 miles in 20 years. I don't think that is possible with EV cars.
You'll be pleased to know that the current generation Tesla motors are designed to last 1,000,000 miles. In fact it is when they were building this vastly durable generation of motors they figured our a way to boost the power output of a Model S further by using a special pyro-fuse. The 0-60 time of the P100D is now 2.28 seconds thanks to this new generation of electric motor and special fuse.
In case it did not occur to you, EV motors have VASTLY fewer components and consequently there is less to go wrong. Unlike combusting cars, Evs have none of the following:
Belts, air filters (other than AC ),spark plugs, coils, balance shafts, harmonic balancers, pistons, rings, camshafts, valves, lifters, valve springs, fuel pumps, injectors, pressure regulators, idle mixture regulators, throttle bodies, catalytic converters, mufflers, gudgeon pins, conrods, big & little end bearings, timing belts or chains, distributors, rotors, ignition leads, fuel filters, alternator, tensioners, clutch or torque converter, multi-speed transmissions - which contain hundreds more moving/wearing components, the list goes on.
To put this in perspective: A typical four cylinder engine has two camshafts, a crank, 16 valves, 16 lifters - or buckets/shims, 16 valve springs, 16 valve guides, 12 or more piston rings, 8 main bearings, 8 big end bearings, 8 gudgeon pins, 4 pistons, 4 spark plugs, either 4 coils or a distributor which contains regular service parts (cap, rotor) and it's drive unit from the camshaft, sprockets or belt wheels, camchain or belt plus tensioner(s), 8 or more camshaft bearings, 4 injectors, 2 fuel pumps, 2 pressure regulators, plus more that I haven't thought of. (Parts list source)
An EV has none of those antiquated components.
By comparison, the Tesla EV motor is about the size of a watermelon. The current motors have been refined over multiple generations to be very reliable and you can accelerate faster than any combusting production car that is available to buy at any price. In the future, everyone will have an electric motor in their car, just like the one in a Tesla.
Last edited by WEBSRFR; 08-06-2017 at 09:39 PM.
Reason: Combusting engine parts list
You'll be pleased to know that the current generation Tesla motors are designed to last 1,000,000 miles. In fact it is when they were building this vastly durable generation of motors they figured our a way to boost the power output of a Model S further by using a special pyro-fuse. The 0-60 time of the P100D is now 2.28 seconds thanks to this new generation of electric motor and special fuse.
In case it did not occur to you, EV motors have VASTLY fewer components and consequently there is less to go wrong. Unlike combusting cars, Evs have no belts, air filters (other than AC ),spark plugs, coils, balance shafts, harmonic balancers, pistons, rings, camshafts, valves, lifters, valve springs, fuel pumps, injectors, pressure regulators, idle mixture regulators, throttle bodies, catalytic converters, mufflers, gudgeon pins, conrods, big & little end bearings, timing belts or chains, distributors, rotors, ignition leads, fuel filters, alternator, tensioners, clutch or torque converter, multi-speed transmissions - which contain hundreds more moving/wearing components, the list goes on.
To put this in perspective a typical four cylinder engine has two camshafts, a crank, 16 valves, 16 lifters - or buckets/shims, 16 valve springs, 16 valve guides, 12 or more piston rings, 8 main bearings, 8 big end bearings, 8 gudgeon pins, 4 pistons, 4 spark plugs, either 4 coils or a distributor which contains regular service parts (cap, rotor) and it's drive unit from the camshaft, sprockets or belt wheels, camchain or belt plus tensioner(s), 8 or more camshaft bearings, 4 injectors, 2 fuel pumps, 2 pressure regulators, plus more that I haven't thought of.
An EV has none of those antiquated components.
By comparison, the Tesla EV motor is about the size of a watermelon. The current motors have been refined over multiple generations to be very reliable and you can accelerate faster than any combusting production car that is available to buy at any price. In the future, everyone will have an electric motor in their car, just like the one in a Tesla.
How much is a new battery? What is the battery life?
How much is a new battery? What is the battery life?
Cost? About the same as the cost for a new engine and related emissions and other components.
Current Tesla batteries are showing barely 6% degradation after 200,000 miles. So most likely the useable life is around 300,000-500,000 miles. Basically on par or better than combusting engine plus transmission.
An EV hardly needs any maintenance. Basically all the services and oil changes you don't need to do over the course of hundreds of thousands of miles of owning an EV will essentially pay for the battery replacement if someone is still the owner of the same car after hundreds of thousands of miles.
Basically the cost and longevity are nonissues for EVS.
The beginning of the demise for combusting cars in the premium segment will come when the Tesla Model 3 goes into full production next year and Tesla shows how a vehicle comparable to a C Class, 3-series, or A4 can be built as an EV for less than the cost of a comparable combusting car.
Last edited by WEBSRFR; 08-06-2017 at 09:43 PM.
Reason: Fix grammar.
How strange. What you said comes across as a bunch of unsubstantiated FUD.
Let's look at some actual facts, shall we? With only 18 minutes of charging time required, this route is as easy for a Tesla as taking away market share from Mercedes
Distance: 332.7 miles
Driving Time: 5:00 (hours)
Charging Time: 0:18 (minutes)
Total Trip Time: 5:18 (hours)
Total Energy Used 98.4 kWh (328 "Rated Miles")
Average Efficiency: 296 Wh/mile
Net Elevation Change: 1958 feet
There are 4 Tesla superchargers along the way. You need to stop at just one for 18 minutes.
Wait, the fastest speed on that chart is 73 miles per hour going to Vegas? Do you really have to drive that slow going to Vegas on a Tesla to make it? Even my grandma who looks older than Yoda drives faster than that.
2020 S560 Sedan, 2019 SL450, 2019 E450 Luxury Trim Wagon, '24 BMW I7 on order...
Originally Posted by white_raven0
Humm suddenly going from car discussion to stock/finance discussion. On that front, I think the company is significantly overvalued.
Regardless, since it's now an established brand with significant brand prestige (probably equal to MB or Porsche).
Really? Brand prestige equal to MB or Porsche? Sir, I don't mean to be rude, but you must be smoking WAY too much of some hallucinatory substance. Brand prestige WHERE? Only on the coasts. In the greater part of this great nation and around the rest of the civilized world, Tesla is virtually UNKNOWN!
2015 S550 Palladium/Deep Sea Blue, 2016 Tesla Model S 70D, 2015 Volvo XC70
Originally Posted by Streamliner
Really? Brand prestige equal to MB or Porsche? Sir, I don't mean to be rude, but you must be smoking WAY too much of some hallucinatory substance. Brand prestige WHERE? Only on the coasts. In the greater part of this great nation and around the rest of the civilized world, Tesla is virtually UNKNOWN!
I certainly agree that Tesla's prestige isn't up there with MB, Porsche, and others.
But I certainly disagree with the statement that "In the greater part of this great nation and around the rest of the civilized world, Tesla is virtually UNKNOWN!" I think Tesla punches far above its weight in terms of awareness (i.e. awareness far exceeds their unit sales). I heard some time ago that Tesla was the most internet-searched car brand in China for instance. In the US last year, Tesla was the 3rd-most-internet-searched car brand:
Honda
Mercedes-Benz
Tesla
Lamborghini
Volvo
Ford
Jaguar
Bentley
Maserati
Rolls-Royce
I certainly agree that Tesla's prestige isn't up there with MB, Porsche, and others.
But I certainly disagree with the statement that "In the greater part of this great nation and around the rest of the civilized world, Tesla is virtually UNKNOWN!" I think Tesla punches far above its weight in terms of awareness (i.e. awareness far exceeds their unit sales). I heard some time ago that Tesla was the most internet-searched car brand in China for instance. In the US last year, Tesla was the 3rd-most-internet-searched car brand:
Honda
Mercedes-Benz
Tesla
Lamborghini
Volvo
Ford
Jaguar
Bentley
Maserati
Rolls-Royce
I can tell you that their brand awareness in Montana is virtually non existent. No dealers in this state and most people that I talk to who are in my tax bracket(people who can afford a tesla), most won't touch them because the nearest dealer is in Seattle and there are too many horror stories out there of owners waiting 6-9 months to get their cars fixed if they have a fender bender(do a google search). We have lots of deer up here. Plus, as I have mentioned before, the interiors in the Tesla just don't compare to Mercedes or even Audi in terms of comfort and there is too much interior noise.
Last edited by alphainfinity; 08-22-2017 at 11:39 AM.
2015 S550 Palladium/Deep Sea Blue, 2016 Tesla Model S 70D, 2015 Volvo XC70
Originally Posted by alphainfinity
the interiors in the Tesla just don't compare to Mercedes or even Audi in terms of comfort and there is too much interior noise.
Totally agree on interior quality, which I'd consider to be "premium" for Tesla rather than "luxury". Re noise if you haven't tried a 2017 perhaps you should. Tesla has made changes over the years, including adding more sound dampening material. And in mid-2016, they switched tires to ones that have styrofoam inserts that damp noise.
Totally agree on interior quality, which I'd consider to be "premium" for Tesla rather than "luxury". Re noise if you haven't tried a 2017 perhaps you should. Tesla has made changes over the years, including adding more sound dampening material. And in mid-2016, they switched tires to ones that have styrofoam inserts that damp noise.
Driving the latest version was definitely a much better experience than the P85D a few years back. That car was worse on many levels. Whining motors, horrible seats and the build quality was 2 steps down.
Still, in the meantime, the Germans have stepped up their cars as well in terms of tech and luxury features so they still leave the Tesla behind in build quality compared to let's say, a new E-Class.
The best argument for the model S is a 75D. Decent specs and not in a price range where the car can't meet luxury car customer expectations.
Don't kill the messenger, just posting a link to Morgan Stanley analysis.
Question though: where are we supposed to get all that electricity to charge all these cars?
Nuclear plant or Hydroelectric dams are out of the question, we would never be able to overcome the protests. http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-0...-co2-they-save
08-01-2017, 05:53 PM
Most people who reach Las Vegas after driving for 5+ hours will find something entertaining to do while their car charges... The post I replied to stated how it is supposedly such an ordeal to drive a Tesla to Las Vegas so I was just responding to that false assertion by pointing out how easy it was to make that drive in a Tesla.
