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Actually, the W221 for model year 2007 was being manufactured in Jan, 2006 and the cars were being sold by February of that year. My 2007 S600 fit that bill exactly. So more than 90% of 2006 sales were of the W221 model. It was a hotly anticipated car and people had tired of the W220, so I doubt there were many sales of the W220 platform that had been left over for sale in 2006.
This thread, S-Class sections in general, and the 167 section are most biased and fanboi-istic on this site. "My car is best!" "No! You're wrong! My car is best!"
Have you been on any BMW or Tesla forums yet? There you would find the true meaning of fanboi-istic users. Dare you you criticize any car even if you are making a comment about your own vehicle, lol. I think most Mbenz forums in general are still way more reasonable and non-biased than BMW and Tesla forums. Tesla forums are the worse, followed by BMW. If you want to be banned, write a thread about one Mbenz vehicle indicating it is better vehicle… : ).
1. Ave units sold per year for 221 (17,200) and 222 (16,700) are about the same. No significant difference.
2. 221 had big first year sales, much better than 222 and 223. Big buyer interest of the new model?
3. 221 had a surge in sales when it was facelifted for 2010.
4. 221 had a second surge at the final model year. People were quite satisfied with the 221?
5. 222 had no surge during its life cycle (particularly interesting and perplexing is even when it was facelifted for MY2018)
6. 222 had big sales drop at final model year. (This is interesting because the first year sales for W223 was not that big and so the reason for the drop was not that people were waiting for the then new W223)
7. 223 had relatively poor sales for the first (and 2nd) year. Probably because traditional S-Class buyers are less receptive to the 'new' tech?
2006 sales are NOT W221 sales, they are 220 sales. The 221 came out in the US as a 2007 model. Your analysis of the numbers are off because of that.
Also bear in mind that today sales of big sedans are way down, the W223 solidly outsells anything else in its segment.
Is it really fare to make any conclusions for the 2019-2021 years? First, Mbenz was cutting really hard on options due to COVID supply chain and part shortages and most people due to COVID decided to keep their money in their pockets and invest somewhere else other than buying cars... perhaps years 2019-2021 should be considered an outliers for that reason (specially 2020!! I mean there are times where we have not been even allowed to walk to a dealer in a lock-down!!!). Not to mention that waiting time has become much longer and many people decided to hold on their vehicles before upgrading. Under normal conditions, one would assume the W222 then would have far exceeded it's current sales numbers if things were just as normal as other years.
Good point but one could make a similar argument that the W221 was produced during the great recession.
2019 W222 S560 4Matic /2019 Chevy Suburban Premier
my fav look of all time is the w126, what a beautiful car.
I have a w220 and it has been a super solid car and it incorporated some design elements of the w126.
Mine is pretty much trouble free and im at 140k miles.
i also have a w222 and its a dream to own as the 4.0tt with a tune on it is amazing.
i am at 53k and changed many things myself, but nothing broke so far.
The look of the w222 reminds me a bit of cars from the 30’s with the way the sides are high and long.
the w221 i didnt like the design, too spartan for me.
the w190 as amazing as it may have been, it looked like it was made for the dystopian future, it looked bleak to me.
just my 2 cents
Good point but one could make a similar argument that the W221 was produced during the great recession.
Yes, my point was not only people did not have money or were not willing to invest in 2020, but also factories did not produce enough cars too. Not sure how that compares to the great recession though, but I agree, fair comparison.
2006 sales are NOT W221 sales, they are 220 sales. The 221 came out in the US as a 2007 model. Your analysis of the numbers are off because of that.
Also bear in mind that today sales of big sedans are way down, the W223 solidly outsells anything else in its segment.
You're wrong again. That chart was sales by calendar year, not model year. And over 90% of calendar year sales in 2006 were 2007 model year W221's. Production of the final year (2006) model W220 ended at the end of 2005.
You're wrong again. That chart was sales by calendar year, not model year. And over 90% of calendar year sales in 2006 were 2007 model year W221's. Production of the final year (2006) model W220 ended at the end of 2005.
If thats the case you still have the same issue on the back end when the W222 came out in 2013. You can't count 2006 sales as being W221s and also count 2013 sales as being W221s.
If we allocate 90% of 2006 sales to the W221 and 90% of 2013 sales to the W222 (deliveries began in March 2013), all of 2020 sales to the W222 (W223 did not see deliveries until 2021), then the W222 still outsold the W221 by 7,874 units. So....sorry...still not wrong.
If thats the case you still have the same issue on the back end when the W222 came out in 2013. You can't count 2006 sales as being W221s and also count 2013 sales as being W221s.
If we allocate 90% of 2006 sales to the W221 and 90% of 2013 sales to the W222 (deliveries began in March 2013), all of 2020 sales to the W222 (W223 did not see deliveries until 2021), then the W222 still outsold the W221 by 7,874 units. So....sorry...still not wrong.
The W221 hit the American market in Feb, 2006. The W222 hit the American market in late Sept, 2013. Keep trying my friend. You'll get me at some point.
The W221 hit the American market in Feb, 2006. The W222 hit the American market in late Sept, 2013. Keep trying my friend. You'll get me at some point.
Thats not the date I found for the on market date for the W222, I found March, but even using your numbers the W222 still outsells the 221. If you only use 40% of the 2013 sales to be W222s, it still outsells the 221 by 1,223 units. But sure, I'll "keep trying" lol
The W222 outsold the W221, like it or not. Can't wait to hear in what way you think you're right next!
In all cases the sales numbers seem to be too close for either of them to overly outweigh the other one with a statistically valid difference that reflects buyers willingness to get one vs the other.
Back to reliability, I am at 55k, 15k of which I have put on. Based on what I have seen in the history of my car, the other thing that has been fixed is the drivers door window switch (rear driver side switch broke). Other than that it maintenance only, and the 20” rims have been repaired/replaced. Lots of tires and brakes!
Thats not the date I found for the on market date for the W222, I found March, but even using your numbers the W222 still outsells the 221. If you only use 40% of the 2013 sales to be W222s, it still outsells the 221 by 1,223 units. But sure, I'll "keep trying" lol
The W222 outsold the W221, like it or not. Can't wait to hear in what way you think you're right next!
My 2007 S600 had an in-service date of February 16, 2006 with a mfr date of 1-06. I highly doubt it was the first W221 put into production. Look at the numbers again and try to use a little common sense. I'll give you 90% for 2006 sales as being W221's (probably higher), especially with the steep drop off from the prior year as almost nobody wanted the W220 any more. Then look at the 2010 to 2013 sales. All very consistent. So "maybe" 35-40% of the sales from 2013 were W222 models, especially since sales didn't start until late Sept and assuming an up-tick for the new model. That would be consistent with 2014 & 2015 MY sales. It's close and consistent with S class US sales for both models, but the W221 out-sold the W222 slightly. The W221 was a HUGE improvement from the W220 in all aspects. The W222 definitely exceeds the W221 in technology, but as far as build quality and materials used, it was a cost cutting down-grade. Kind of like going from the W140 to the W220. Which gets back to my original point.
Back to reliability, I am at 55k, 15k of which I have put on. Based on what I have seen in the history of my car, the other thing that has been fixed is the drivers door window switch (rear driver side switch broke). Other than that it maintenance only, and the 20” rims have been repaired/replaced. Lots of tires and brakes!
I just replaced the same switch a few months ago. Those cheap plastic switches are easy to break. Fortunately I found a new China made switch on evil-bay (I'm sure the majority of the plastic stuff on the W222 is made in China anyway) for $26 and installed it in less than 5 minutes. Works perfect! If it were of W221 quality, it would have never broken since those were made from aluminum.
My 2007 S600 had an in-service date of February 16, 2006 with a mfr date of 1-06. I highly doubt it was the first W221 put into production. Look at the numbers again and try to use a little common sense. I'll give you 90% for 2006 sales as being W221's (probably higher), especially with the steep drop off from the prior year as almost nobody wanted the W220 any more. Then look at the 2010 to 2013 sales. All very consistent. So "maybe" 35-40% of the sales from 2013 were W222 models, especially since sales didn't start until late Sept and assuming an up-tick for the new model. That would be consistent with 2014 & 2015 MY sales. It's close and consistent with S class US sales for both models, but the W221 out-sold the W222 slightly. The W221 was a HUGE improvement from the W220 in all aspects. The W222 definitely exceeds the W221 in technology, but as far as build quality and materials used, it was a cost cutting down-grade. Kind of like going from the W140 to the W220. Which gets back to my original point.
Have a nice day.
Going from the W221 to the W222 is not the same as going from the W140 to the W220 since underneath it all they (the W221 and W222) are the same car. Not arguing the cost cutting aspect but the W222 being an evolution of the W221, it has been a far more reliable platform.
In many ways the W220 was a substantial improvement in over the W140 (lighter, air suspension, better fuel efficiency) but a poorly executed one (rust, can bus, as you say cost cutting measures including material quality.....). I would ten times rather have a nice well sorted W220 than a W140.
My 2007 S600 had an in-service date of February 16, 2006 with a mfr date of 1-06. I highly doubt it was the first W221 put into production. Look at the numbers again and try to use a little common sense. I'll give you 90% for 2006 sales as being W221's (probably higher), especially with the steep drop off from the prior year as almost nobody wanted the W220 any more. Then look at the 2010 to 2013 sales. All very consistent. So "maybe" 35-40% of the sales from 2013 were W222 models, especially since sales didn't start until late Sept and assuming an up-tick for the new model. That would be consistent with 2014 & 2015 MY sales. It's close and consistent with S class US sales for both models, but the W221 out-sold the W222 slightly. The W221 was a HUGE improvement from the W220 in all aspects. The W222 definitely exceeds the W221 in technology, but as far as build quality and materials used, it was a cost cutting down-grade. Kind of like going from the W140 to the W220. Which gets back to my original point.
Have a nice day.
The bottom line is, the W222 sold more units, if only slightly. You can look at the %s and try and explain it away however you want, but its splitting hairs.
As for the difference, I prefer the materials in the 222, I actually think the car feels higher quality inside than the 221 and I think the 222 rides better. Does the 221 feel more "solid" I can't really say, my W222 is as solid or more solid than any car I have ever had, and I had 4 Lexus LS sedans which are known for that. I'm 2.5 years in and 34,000 miles and my car is indistinguishable from new inside, there is no wear, no broken switches, no rattles or creaks. From a design perspective I think the 222 interior is dramatically more attractive than the 221, which I would classify as actually ugly inside. Exterior, I again much prefer the 222, although I wouldnt say the exterior of the 221 is ugly, it just never spoke to me the way the 221 does (nor does the 223).
From a reliability perspective, the 222 has a much better track record than the 221. Overall, the 222 is the superior product. The fact that this car has been more reliable than my previous Lexus vehicles is incredible.
Another difference is that the S600 had ABC vs airmatic on the S550 which might have given a different feel. Again not disputing that there may have been some cost cutting from one model to the next. Someone who has had both would certainly know better than I.
Another difference is that the S600 had ABC vs airmatic on the S550 which might have given a different feel. Again not disputing that there may have been some cost cutting from one model to the next. Someone who has had both would certainly know better than I.
Absolutely, and the V12 just makes an overall difference in how the car feels, same as the V8 vs the V6.
The reality is, whenever there is a new model there is always some degree of cost cutting. It just is what it is...
The bottom line is, the W222 sold more units, if only slightly.
If you're going to keep using Biden logic, sure.
From a reliability perspective, the 222 has a much better track record than the 221. Overall, the 222 is the superior product. The fact that this car has been more reliable than my previous Lexus vehicles is incredible.
True for the 2007-2010 S550. But the 2011-2013 models used the same 4.7L Bi-turbo used in the 2014-2017 W222, which arguably is just as reliable or more so than the 4.0 Bi-turbo in the later models.
Originally Posted by SW20S
The reality is, whenever there is a new model there is always some degree of cost cutting. It just is what it is...
Definitely true when they went from the W140 to the W220 and the W221 to the W222. Nothing could be further from the truth going from the W220 to the W221, which was a major upgrade in features, materials, and build quality. Even Lexus uses higher end materials on their current interiors than MB uses on the W222, especially the switches, vents, and wood veneers. My W221 was also significantly quieter than my W222 and didn't have any of the rattles that my current car does. The W222 just isn't screwed together as well as the W221 was.
True for the 2007-2010 S550. But the 2011-2013 models used the same 4.7L Bi-turbo used in the 2014-2017 W222, which arguably is just as reliable or more so than the 4.0 Bi-turbo in the later models.
You yourself said your 222 was more reliable than your 221. All one has to do is look at the two forums...
The 4.7L has some considerable high mileage reliability issues that were improved but not solved in the 222, but the 4.0 is the more reliable engine.
Even Lexus uses higher end materials on their current interiors than MB uses on the W222, especially the switches, vents, and wood veneers.
HAHA! I had 7 Lexuses, including 4 LS sedans. This is completely untrue. I mean, thats a ridiculous statement. For one, a full leather dash is available in the W222, thats not available at all on an LS500. LS460s had that available but only on executive package cars or the 600hl. The LS500 interior and LC500 interior are very nice, but build quality is nothing like the S Class in the LS, closer in the LC. All other Lexus' have terrible interiors. There are no metal switches anywhere in a Lexus interior, and vents etc are the same as on any other Toyota. Lexus does wood very well on the LS I agree...but that wood is also as you described "a very thin veneer".
My W221 was also significantly quieter than my W222 and didn't have any of the rattles that my current car does. The W222 just isn't screwed together as well as the W221 was.
Sounds to me like you have a crummy one if thats true. Like I said I have no rattles and my W222 is as quiet as any car I have ever driven...and I've driven basically everything remotely comparable including W221s. Or, the refresh W222 is much improved from the pre-refresh.
I just replaced the same switch a few months ago. Those cheap plastic switches are easy to break. Fortunately I found a new China made switch on evil-bay (I'm sure the majority of the plastic stuff on the W222 is made in China anyway) for $26 and installed it in less than 5 minutes. Works perfect! If it were of W221 quality, it would have never broken since those were made from aluminum.
I got lucky and had it done under warranty, it was about a $500 job at the dealer.
03-25-2023, 05:42 AM
