M176 reliability?
Thread Starter
Newbie
Joined: Nov 2023
Posts: 11
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From: Germany
C 200 W204
M176 reliability?
Hello guys,
I'm from Germany and searching for a S-Class from 2015-2020 with V8 engine. For the engine I would prefer the S 500 M278, but only with 9G transmission. But the facelift model as S 560 with the M176 has many other advantages, for example better headlights and better comand system.
Also there are very less offers of a good S 500 with 9G.
I worry about the reliability of the M176, because it's an AMG engine. I watched a german video of the M177 where they overhauled the engine at about 150.000km (90k miles). The mechanic said it's 'normal' for this mileage, but it could run some miles more. For me it's not normal to overhaul an engine at 90-150k miles.
Does anyone know if the M176 has a much better reliability than the M177? Because I'm planning to drive the car the next 10-15 years and I'm sure I would reach more than 150k miles.
Here's the video of the M177:
https://youtu.be/-gAnSp-9Y0c?si=BuZb-u15O749kiA7
I'm from Germany and searching for a S-Class from 2015-2020 with V8 engine. For the engine I would prefer the S 500 M278, but only with 9G transmission. But the facelift model as S 560 with the M176 has many other advantages, for example better headlights and better comand system.
Also there are very less offers of a good S 500 with 9G.
I worry about the reliability of the M176, because it's an AMG engine. I watched a german video of the M177 where they overhauled the engine at about 150.000km (90k miles). The mechanic said it's 'normal' for this mileage, but it could run some miles more. For me it's not normal to overhaul an engine at 90-150k miles.
Does anyone know if the M176 has a much better reliability than the M177? Because I'm planning to drive the car the next 10-15 years and I'm sure I would reach more than 150k miles.
Here's the video of the M177:
https://youtu.be/-gAnSp-9Y0c?si=BuZb-u15O749kiA7
Out Of Control!!
Joined: Sep 2018
Posts: 14,663
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From: unbegrenzt
2017 GLE350 4MATIC
M176 and M177 are not significantly different. Early production years had misifiring ignition problems, which were addressed with new ignition coils and ECU programming. Not sure if this was a 100% solution for misfiring.
Lately, there have been reports of leaking rear main crankshaft oil seals (RMS), because the oil-vapor separators have become blocked (failed). This increases pressure inside the crankcase, and the pressure finds the weakest point, which evidently is the rear main crankshaft oil seal.
RMS failures seem to be reported on 63 models: C-, E- and G- mainly.
I do not consider any MB engine to be capable of 150k miles or more, without requiring major repair or replacement. The exception to this is the 3.0/3.5 M276 V6, the most reliable MB engine in the past 20 years.
Lately, there have been reports of leaking rear main crankshaft oil seals (RMS), because the oil-vapor separators have become blocked (failed). This increases pressure inside the crankcase, and the pressure finds the weakest point, which evidently is the rear main crankshaft oil seal.
RMS failures seem to be reported on 63 models: C-, E- and G- mainly.
I do not consider any MB engine to be capable of 150k miles or more, without requiring major repair or replacement. The exception to this is the 3.0/3.5 M276 V6, the most reliable MB engine in the past 20 years.
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 4,975
Likes: 1,343
From: Cincinnati
2010 E350 4Matic
Hello guys,
I'm from Germany and searching for a S-Class from 2015-2020 with V8 engine. For the engine I would prefer the S 500 M278, but only with 9G transmission. But the facelift model as S 560 with the M176 has many other advantages, for example better headlights and better comand system.
Also there are very less offers of a good S 500 with 9G.
I worry about the reliability of the M176, because it's an AMG engine. I watched a german video of the M177 where they overhauled the engine at about 150.000km (90k miles). The mechanic said it's 'normal' for this mileage, but it could run some miles more. For me it's not normal to overhaul an engine at 90-150k miles.
Does anyone know if the M176 has a much better reliability than the M177? Because I'm planning to drive the car the next 10-15 years and I'm sure I would reach more than 150k miles.
Here's the video of the M177:
https://youtu.be/-gAnSp-9Y0c?si=BuZb-u15O749kiA7
I'm from Germany and searching for a S-Class from 2015-2020 with V8 engine. For the engine I would prefer the S 500 M278, but only with 9G transmission. But the facelift model as S 560 with the M176 has many other advantages, for example better headlights and better comand system.
Also there are very less offers of a good S 500 with 9G.
I worry about the reliability of the M176, because it's an AMG engine. I watched a german video of the M177 where they overhauled the engine at about 150.000km (90k miles). The mechanic said it's 'normal' for this mileage, but it could run some miles more. For me it's not normal to overhaul an engine at 90-150k miles.
Does anyone know if the M176 has a much better reliability than the M177? Because I'm planning to drive the car the next 10-15 years and I'm sure I would reach more than 150k miles.
Here's the video of the M177:
https://youtu.be/-gAnSp-9Y0c?si=BuZb-u15O749kiA7
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 1,173
Likes: 431
S600
Realistically, if you perform maintenance according to the book, you will get a nice long life out of the whole vehicle.
If, instead, you up the maintenance frequency by 25% (10K oil change to 80 OCI) you will add significantly to engine life.
It also maters HOW you drive the car.
Someone who floors the throttle for 5 seconds (0-60) at each stop light will not see as many miles per engine as someone who accelerates similarly with surrounding traffic.
...
If, instead, you up the maintenance frequency by 25% (10K oil change to 80 OCI) you will add significantly to engine life.
It also maters HOW you drive the car.
Someone who floors the throttle for 5 seconds (0-60) at each stop light will not see as many miles per engine as someone who accelerates similarly with surrounding traffic.
...
Super Member
Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 779
Likes: 205
From: Texas
63 Falcon vert
Realistically, if you perform maintenance according to the book, you will get a nice long life out of the whole vehicle.
If, instead, you up the maintenance frequency by 25% (10K oil change to 80 OCI) you will add significantly to engine life.
It also maters HOW you drive the car.
Someone who floors the throttle for 5 seconds (0-60) at each stop light will not see as many miles per engine as someone who accelerates similarly with surrounding traffic.
...
If, instead, you up the maintenance frequency by 25% (10K oil change to 80 OCI) you will add significantly to engine life.
It also maters HOW you drive the car.
Someone who floors the throttle for 5 seconds (0-60) at each stop light will not see as many miles per engine as someone who accelerates similarly with surrounding traffic.
...
Thread Starter
Newbie
Joined: Nov 2023
Posts: 11
Likes: 6
From: Germany
C 200 W204
It would be nice that the newer engine (M176/M177) is better than the older (M278), but I think this is a misbelief. Every generetion of engines has some problems and the new generation has new, other problems. This is very sad, but I think the reason is because they want to build parts as cheap as possible.
I think the M278 is a very good engine since 2015, when the cylinder liners are made of steel.
Of course, it's very important to protect the engine and to adhere the maintenance. But the guy in the video said, that the engine (M177) was driven 'normal'. Anyway it was neccessary to change the pistons and overhaul other parts (at 90k miles).
I think the M278 is a very good engine since 2015, when the cylinder liners are made of steel.
Of course, it's very important to protect the engine and to adhere the maintenance. But the guy in the video said, that the engine (M177) was driven 'normal'. Anyway it was neccessary to change the pistons and overhaul other parts (at 90k miles).
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Out Of Control!!
Joined: Sep 2018
Posts: 14,663
Likes: 4,567
From: unbegrenzt
2017 GLE350 4MATIC
because the oil-vapor separators have become blocked (failed).[/QUOTE]
Is this a serviceable part?[/QUOTE]
Yes, at considerable cost and time. Read the E63 threads. The vapor separators are at the front of the engine, buried under and behind other components. Depending on vehicle installation details (intake ducting) the disassembly work to access the separators is either a big job or a really big job. Parts themselves are inexpensive relatively speaking.
Is this a serviceable part?[/QUOTE]
Yes, at considerable cost and time. Read the E63 threads. The vapor separators are at the front of the engine, buried under and behind other components. Depending on vehicle installation details (intake ducting) the disassembly work to access the separators is either a big job or a really big job. Parts themselves are inexpensive relatively speaking.
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Joined: May 2021
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From: US
2008 E350, 2012 ML350, 2014 E350, 2015 ML350
https://lifeonfour.co/engine-problem...e-reliability/
Summary from Jul 2023. Similar to comments above.
Summary from Jul 2023. Similar to comments above.
Member
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 245
Likes: 244
'20 GLS450, '17 S550 Sedan
Hello guys,
I'm from Germany and searching for a S-Class from 2015-2020 with V8 engine. For the engine I would prefer the S 500 M278, but only with 9G transmission. But the facelift model as S 560 with the M176 has many other advantages, for example better headlights and better comand system.
Also there are very less offers of a good S 500 with 9G.
I'm from Germany and searching for a S-Class from 2015-2020 with V8 engine. For the engine I would prefer the S 500 M278, but only with 9G transmission. But the facelift model as S 560 with the M176 has many other advantages, for example better headlights and better comand system.
Also there are very less offers of a good S 500 with 9G.
I have one, and I love it.
Happy Hunting!
Thread Starter
Newbie
Joined: Nov 2023
Posts: 11
Likes: 6
From: Germany
C 200 W204
Thread Starter
Newbie
Joined: Nov 2023
Posts: 11
Likes: 6
From: Germany
C 200 W204
I talked to the mechanic from the video. He said the M176 should be more reliable than the M177, because of lower pressures of DI and lower engine power (don't know the correct english designation, but I think you know what I mean )
So far they didn't have a M176 in their shop with any problems, but they have clients with this engine. He said right know they have a S 560 Maybach with 175k miles with no issues but they will have a look at the engine.
)So far they didn't have a M176 in their shop with any problems, but they have clients with this engine. He said right know they have a S 560 Maybach with 175k miles with no issues but they will have a look at the engine.
Newbie
Joined: Jul 2022
Posts: 9
Likes: 7
From: Evanston, IL.
S 560 4 Matic and 2024 AMG S63E
Hello guys,
I'm from Germany and searching for a S-Class from 2015-2020 with V8 engine. For the engine I would prefer the S 500 M278, but only with 9G transmission. But the facelift model as S 560 with the M176 has many other advantages, for example better headlights and better comand system.
Also there are very less offers of a good S 500 with 9G.
I worry about the reliability of the M176, because it's an AMG engine. I watched a german video of the M177 where they overhauled the engine at about 150.000km (90k miles). The mechanic said it's 'normal' for this mileage, but it could run some miles more. For me it's not normal to overhaul an engine at 90-150k miles.
Does anyone know if the M176 has a much better reliability than the M177? Because I'm planning to drive the car the next 10-15 years and I'm sure I would reach more than 150k miles.
Here's the video of the M177:
https://youtu.be/-gAnSp-9Y0c?si=BuZb-u15O749kiA7
I'm from Germany and searching for a S-Class from 2015-2020 with V8 engine. For the engine I would prefer the S 500 M278, but only with 9G transmission. But the facelift model as S 560 with the M176 has many other advantages, for example better headlights and better comand system.
Also there are very less offers of a good S 500 with 9G.
I worry about the reliability of the M176, because it's an AMG engine. I watched a german video of the M177 where they overhauled the engine at about 150.000km (90k miles). The mechanic said it's 'normal' for this mileage, but it could run some miles more. For me it's not normal to overhaul an engine at 90-150k miles.
Does anyone know if the M176 has a much better reliability than the M177? Because I'm planning to drive the car the next 10-15 years and I'm sure I would reach more than 150k miles.
Here's the video of the M177:
https://youtu.be/-gAnSp-9Y0c?si=BuZb-u15O749kiA7
I have 360,000 miles on the S Class (M176), driven commercially since December 2017. The engine is very reliable. In October I replaced the camshafts adjusters. This coming Spring I will perform (all by myself) the head replacement with new valves etc., just as a preventative maintenance. It is kind of against my own doctrine and rules (“not broken, dont fix it”), however I take my cars to 500,000 miles normally thanks to my own maintenance. I also have my special routine each time I start the car and oil goes every 5,000 miles, no mercy, which is sometimes every month since I jam 60,000-70,000 miles per year. it is definitely over engineered but well designed and built. Always drained 9 q of the oil back after 9.5 q placed in initially each time.
The key is to never over heated and there is a trick between the condenser and one of the radiators… you need to remove a fleece blanket like of dust, feathers and debris blocking the air flow, and the low pressure electric pump in the lower right side of the car has to be replaced before it fails. No one could tell me while I get the codes of “high pressure in the turbos” (which was actually protected and the computer didnt allow them to kick in after 4,000 rpm), until I discovered this myself while updating my houses and the whole cooling system around 260,000 miles.
Newbie
Joined: Jul 2022
Posts: 9
Likes: 7
From: Evanston, IL.
S 560 4 Matic and 2024 AMG S63E
M176 and M177 are not significantly different. Early production years had misifiring ignition problems, which were addressed with new ignition coils and ECU programming. Not sure if this was a 100% solution for misfiring.
Lately, there have been reports of leaking rear main crankshaft oil seals (RMS), because the oil-vapor separators have become blocked (failed). This increases pressure inside the crankcase, and the pressure finds the weakest point, which evidently is the rear main crankshaft oil seal.
RMS failures seem to be reported on 63 models: C-, E- and G- mainly.
I do not consider any MB engine to be capable of 150k miles or more, without requiring major repair or replacement. The exception to this is the 3.0/3.5 M276 V6, the most reliable MB engine in the past 20 years.
Lately, there have been reports of leaking rear main crankshaft oil seals (RMS), because the oil-vapor separators have become blocked (failed). This increases pressure inside the crankcase, and the pressure finds the weakest point, which evidently is the rear main crankshaft oil seal.
RMS failures seem to be reported on 63 models: C-, E- and G- mainly.
I do not consider any MB engine to be capable of 150k miles or more, without requiring major repair or replacement. The exception to this is the 3.0/3.5 M276 V6, the most reliable MB engine in the past 20 years.
Now what is your number? Still 150,000?
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 9,051
Likes: 4,557
From: Maryland
2024 S580
The most common issue I have seen with the M176 engine is failing valve cover gaskets caused by clogged oil separators. Be sure that whatever vehicle you buy has had the spark plugs replaced because thats when they find the leak. That is a HUGE job, my 2020 S560 had it done at just under $50k miles and the whole front end of the car has to come off.
Best way to avoid that is to change the oil more frequently so that the separators don't clog.
Best way to avoid that is to change the oil more frequently so that the separators don't clog.
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 9,051
Likes: 4,557
From: Maryland
2024 S580
And you are completely wrong on your 150,000 miles number. Where is this limit coming from, or what is based on? Your assumption perhaps. I have a commercially driven in Chicago the 2018 S Class with 360,000 miles with NO major repairs until now the camshafts adjusters were replaced to avoid any potential timing issues.
Now what is your number? Still 150,000?
Now what is your number? Still 150,000?
Last edited by SW20S; Jan 26, 2025 at 01:55 PM.
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 2,607
Likes: 1,208
From: Phoenix
222 S-65
140,000 miles on the 279 in my 222 car. Oil gets changed every 5-6,000 miles. Burns a quart of oil between changes. I don’t spare the horses. She will clearly live long enough to find the ‘19 or ‘20MY car it gets replaced with as they depreciate.
Newbie
Joined: Jul 2022
Posts: 9
Likes: 7
From: Evanston, IL.
S 560 4 Matic and 2024 AMG S63E
The most common issue I have seen with the M176 engine is failing valve cover gaskets caused by clogged oil separators. Be sure that whatever vehicle you buy has had the spark plugs replaced because thats when they find the leak. That is a HUGE job, my 2020 S560 had it done at just under $50k miles and the whole front end of the car has to come off.
Best way to avoid that is to change the oil more frequently so that the separators don't clog.
Best way to avoid that is to change the oil more frequently so that the separators don't clog.
after 2019, S Class carries 580. Is your car 2020?
and the oil separators are a part of the preventative maintenance. And if you change the oil more frequently, these 2 separators will last much longer. It is only given that part of owning any car is to change the oil more often, even if not driven a lot.
Out Of Control!!
Joined: Sep 2018
Posts: 14,663
Likes: 4,567
From: unbegrenzt
2017 GLE350 4MATIC
And you are completely wrong on your 150,000 miles number. Where is this limit coming from, or what is based on? Your assumption perhaps. I have a commercially driven in Chicago the 2018 S Class with 360,000 miles with NO major repairs until now the camshafts adjusters were replaced to avoid any potential timing issues.
Now what is your number? Still 150,000?
Now what is your number? Still 150,000?
Newbie
Joined: Jul 2022
Posts: 9
Likes: 7
From: Evanston, IL.
S 560 4 Matic and 2024 AMG S63E
it wasn’t a question. It was a rhetorical question as obviously your rule fails. I could answer more og your questions having 2 million miles driven in my life and taking my cars to over 500,000 miles.
Any questions? I thoughts so… No.
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 9,051
Likes: 4,557
From: Maryland
2024 S580
after 2019, S Class carries 580. Is your car 2020?
and the oil separators are a part of the preventative maintenance. And if you change the oil more frequently, these 2 separators will last much longer. It is only given that part of owning any car is to change the oil more often, even if not driven a lot.
and the oil separators are a part of the preventative maintenance. And if you change the oil more frequently, these 2 separators will last much longer. It is only given that part of owning any car is to change the oil more often, even if not driven a lot.
The oil separators are not a maintenance part. They are never replaced as part of any factory scheduled maintenance. Changing the oil more frequently than the MB specified 10k interval will keep them from clogging, hopefully.
Last edited by SW20S; Jan 26, 2025 at 07:53 PM.
Newbie
Joined: Jul 2022
Posts: 9
Likes: 7
From: Evanston, IL.
S 560 4 Matic and 2024 AMG S63E
That’s incorrect. The S560 ran from 2018-2020, the W223 S580 came out for 2021. I had a 2020 S560 and now have a 2024 S580.
The oil separators are not a maintenance part. They are never replaced as part of any factory scheduled maintenance. Changing the oil more frequently than the MB specified 10k interval will keep them from clogging, hopefully.
Seriously just ignore him like the rest of us do.
The oil separators are not a maintenance part. They are never replaced as part of any factory scheduled maintenance. Changing the oil more frequently than the MB specified 10k interval will keep them from clogging, hopefully.
Seriously just ignore him like the rest of us do.
PCV which basically what these are, these ARE a common sense maintenance items. No one was speaking about what factory recommends. If you want to follow just the factory intervals, then for sure you will be changing a lot and much earlier than you would if you change certain things stepping out of the conventional box. There no rule or real prediction how many miles you can get before you overhaul any engine. And saying it can only go 150 K is untrue and an assumption. After removing the camshafts for example, there was almost no wear on the bearings for example. And good preventative maintenance goes way beyond what you find from a factory recommendations.
Just trying to share the facts which make a difference when it comes to getting past your 150,000 mark with an ease.
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 9,051
Likes: 4,557
From: Maryland
2024 S580
PCV which basically what these are, these ARE a common sense maintenance items. No one was speaking about what factory recommends. If you want to follow just the factory intervals, then for sure you will be changing a lot and much earlier than you would if you change certain things stepping out of the conventional box. There no rule or real prediction how many miles you can get before you overhaul any engine. And saying it can only go 150 K is untrue and an assumption. After removing the camshafts for example, there was almost no wear on the bearings for example. And good preventative maintenance goes way beyond what you find from a factory recommendations.
Just trying to share the facts which make a difference when it comes to getting past your 150,000 mark with an ease.
Just trying to share the facts which make a difference when it comes to getting past your 150,000 mark with an ease.
