Purchase advice S 500 M278 vs S 560 M176
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,823
Likes: 792
From: Pacific Northwest
2001 S600 V12 Sold, 2011 Jaguar XFR Sold, 2017 S550 4-Matic, 2018 S63 AMG Sedan
I appreciate a heads up and sound advice as much as anybody. But what's missing is perspective. To say something is common means it's happens more often than something else. It's not clear if "common" means when a MB car has a repair, it's common for it to be this type of repair done, or if common means these problems happens more frequently than with other cars. We can assume, but without numbers to substantiate the claim, we're just pis.... in the wind.
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 9,062
Likes: 4,565
From: Maryland
2024 S580
And please point us to all the 278s with the iron liners with engines that need replaced? I seem to see a distinct lack of that here.
You need to define "long term reliable". I have no doubt either engine with good maintenance can survive 200k+ miles.
My car was the first valve cover gasket repair that dealer has done on an M176.Someone in my thread called the shop who made those videos and he had also never seen the gaskets fail on an M176, only M177 and 178.
Last edited by SW20S; Jun 12, 2024 at 07:38 PM.
Out Of Control!!
Joined: Sep 2018
Posts: 14,666
Likes: 4,569
From: unbegrenzt
2017 GLE350 4MATIC
Sadly, MB produces garbage engines and transmissions. Exciting when new, and garbage with anything more than de minimis mileage.
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 9,062
Likes: 4,565
From: Maryland
2024 S580
Again, you share your very tired diatribe about Mercedes engines with no examples or evidence to back up what you say. We have all kinds of members here with these cars with not insignificant mileage that are having enjoyable experiences with these cars and you just ignore all of that.
I don’t think anybody would suggest a Mercedes is a car you would buy and drive to 250,000 miles with zero issues, but to say the engines “don’t last past minimum mileage” is a bold claim with absolutely zero evidence reflected here or offered by you to back it up.
Last edited by SW20S; Jun 12, 2024 at 10:29 PM.
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,823
Likes: 792
From: Pacific Northwest
2001 S600 V12 Sold, 2011 Jaguar XFR Sold, 2017 S550 4-Matic, 2018 S63 AMG Sedan
I can point you to a boreoscope where you can clearly see the iron liners lol
Again, you share your very tired diatribe about Mercedes engines with no examples or evidence to back up what you say. We have all kinds of members here with these cars with not insignificant mileage that are having enjoyable experiences with these cars and you just ignore all of that.
I don’t think anybody would suggest a Mercedes is a car you would buy and drive to 250,000 miles with zero issues, but to say the engines “don’t last past minimum mileage” is a bold claim with absolutely zero evidence reflected here or offered by you to back it up.
Again, you share your very tired diatribe about Mercedes engines with no examples or evidence to back up what you say. We have all kinds of members here with these cars with not insignificant mileage that are having enjoyable experiences with these cars and you just ignore all of that.
I don’t think anybody would suggest a Mercedes is a car you would buy and drive to 250,000 miles with zero issues, but to say the engines “don’t last past minimum mileage” is a bold claim with absolutely zero evidence reflected here or offered by you to back it up.
And here's the even bigger point; maintenance, including timeliness of repairs, and a customer's driving history and style can destroy even the most robust engine. I like buying off-lease cars so I don't pay new car prices. I'll also buy a used non-CPO, but only 1 owner cars. I will not buy a high end car that's been stiing for months on a dealer lot several times in its lifetime. A car like that has surely been abused, not intentionallly, but the results are the same. Short duration trips, while still cold, hard acceleration pulls, exposure to all types of weather, and the potential for substandard maintenance and repairs. That type of stuff destroys any car, or at least decreases its service life. The build up of excess crankcase pressure can be a direct result of these short duration trips where the car rarely reaches optimal engine operating temps. And even when buying a 1-owner car, if the previous owner abused it I'm out of luck. But all this negativity without any empircal data is stupid. Real numbers mean something, but theories anecdotes and conjecture only muddy the waters.
Member
Joined: Oct 2021
Posts: 99
Likes: 23
From: Heidelberg, Germany
W222 S560 4matic 2018 and C140 CL 500 1998
I can only offer anecdotal evidence but the M176 should be the more reliable engine and the M177 has been around for almost 10 years by now. One thing that is noteworthy is that this engine was actually developed by AMG, so the M176 base is built for way more power. The M278 was the other way around, it's not meant to be a performance engine. I remember tons of cars with a swapped engine on the used cars market for the M278. I have not seen a single M176 car with a swapped engine. We had a lot of M278s in the family and we never had issues but the highest mileage we got to was around 75k and they were always serviced at the dealer. We never kept those cars outside of warranty. I have reached that point with my M176 now but I will keep the car cause I feel more confident about it than the M278. I do have the MB warranty though.
Since the thread starter is from Germany I assume you know the tons of videos about the M278 by Motoren Zimmer and Shift2Passion? Motoren Zimmer has a video where they say a lot of good things about the M176/M177/M178 as well. Worth watching. Even if the M176 is harder to work on I'd still get that instead of an engine with lots of known issues that is easier to work on. You better be a good mechanic if you want to own any of them outside of warranty though.
I can also say something about the R744 AC. It's great when it works but I had lots of issues with it. However I'm in my third year without issues after the condenser and two lines or so were replaced. If it holds up through summer I do consider it fixed for my car. @Quenthel also has no issues but had something replaced on it.
Since the thread starter is from Germany I assume you know the tons of videos about the M278 by Motoren Zimmer and Shift2Passion? Motoren Zimmer has a video where they say a lot of good things about the M176/M177/M178 as well. Worth watching. Even if the M176 is harder to work on I'd still get that instead of an engine with lots of known issues that is easier to work on. You better be a good mechanic if you want to own any of them outside of warranty though.
I can also say something about the R744 AC. It's great when it works but I had lots of issues with it. However I'm in my third year without issues after the condenser and two lines or so were replaced. If it holds up through summer I do consider it fixed for my car. @Quenthel also has no issues but had something replaced on it.
Last edited by Nico9182349; Jun 13, 2024 at 04:22 AM.
Thread Starter
Newbie
Joined: Nov 2023
Posts: 11
Likes: 6
From: Germany
C 200 W204
Thanks for the responses.
I have decided to get a S 500 with M278, but I'm still searching for it, because I want one with 9G and exclusive package.
The engine is not the reason, it's the R744 AC in Europe. This AC was only built in some W222 FL and W213 and to me it seems that too many people have unsolved or recurrent issues with it. VW ID models with this AC have issues, too.
I have decided to get a S 500 with M278, but I'm still searching for it, because I want one with 9G and exclusive package.
The engine is not the reason, it's the R744 AC in Europe. This AC was only built in some W222 FL and W213 and to me it seems that too many people have unsolved or recurrent issues with it. VW ID models with this AC have issues, too.
Member
Joined: Oct 2021
Posts: 99
Likes: 23
From: Heidelberg, Germany
W222 S560 4matic 2018 and C140 CL 500 1998
Come back to post the car when you have found it. I'm curious. One of the reasons I did not go with the pre facelift was that I couldnt really find clean cars with warranty.
Last edited by Nico9182349; Jun 13, 2024 at 07:08 AM.
MB World Stories
The Best of Mercedes & AMG
Manual Mercedes? 6 Times Sindelfingen Let Drivers Have All The Fun
Verdad Gallardo
Mercedes SLR McLaren 722 S Is Extremely Rare Example Modified by McLaren
Verdad Gallardo
8 Classic Boxy Mercedes Designs That Have Aged Like Fine Wine
Verdad Gallardo
Flawlessly Restored Mercedes 190E Evo II Heads to Auction
Verdad Gallardo
Electric Mercedes C-Class Unveiled: 11 Things You Need to Know
Verdad Gallardo
Mercedes EQS Gets A Major Update: Everything You Need to Know
Verdad Gallardo
5 Underrated Mercedes-Benz Models That Don't Get the Love They Deserve
Verdad Gallardo
Mercedes 300D Has Pushed Well Past 1 Million Miles and It Ain't Stopping
Verdad Gallardo
10 Most Reliable Mercedes-Benz Models You Can Buy Used
Verdad Gallardo
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 9,062
Likes: 4,565
From: Maryland
2024 S580
People feel empowered when they say something negative. Problem is that he only has to be right once, even if he's wrong literally 250,000 other times, to feel justified. And reliability and durability aren't the same thing. I'm sure some other engines can take more abuse. Low power and less efficient engines generally can survive with poorer maintenance and take more abuse. However, most high performance engines can't take much abuse; that's the nature of the beast, whether it's on road cars or race engines.
And here's the even bigger point; maintenance, including timeliness of repairs, and a customer's driving history and style can destroy even the most robust engine.
And here's the even bigger point; maintenance, including timeliness of repairs, and a customer's driving history and style can destroy even the most robust engine.
With my Lexus vehicles, you literally could just change the oil and drive them half broken all the time and they would keep going. Thats not the case here. I can tell you having owned the best Lexuses made and now having this, the tradeoff is worth it.
Newbie
Joined: Jun 2024
Posts: 3
Likes: 1
From: New Hampshire
2020 E53 AMG
Ther is no technical term for "common" or "very common". I want to know know how many. How many of the repairs you've called called common or very common repaired? Have you done 1, or have you done 10? You referenced getting information from a dealer; what exactly are they reporting? And you mentioned getting info from the forums...C'mon man!!! And at 2:34 you say "a lot of people..." What does a lot even mean??? Without emperical data this video is worthless. You only have to be right one time to feel justified. I know I'm not the only person who wants to know it this is 1 in 5 or 1 in 500 or 1 in 50K? If you actually want to be helpful you can provide better info. Even something as simple as the year model and mileage of the car you were working on would be helpful. AND, was it a one owner car? What about previous maintenance history? All those factors contribute/determine a car's long-term reliability. With good information we can gain perspective but with poor quality information it honestly is worthless.
And I do think you care about likes, I work in Advertising so I don't have a problem with that. Nice video, production wise, and beautiful website!!
And I do think you care about likes, I work in Advertising so I don't have a problem with that. Nice video, production wise, and beautiful website!!
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 9,062
Likes: 4,565
From: Maryland
2024 S580
Appreciate the kind words my fellow MB friend❤️. I’m going to go back to fixing Mercedes and making my clients happy, which is the only reason why my “ COMMON” problem videos make it here. It doesn’t make it here for the likes 👍🏾, it makes it here because of the hard work my team and I put in ❤️🏎️💨
I didn't take your videos as being scare tactics at all. When you say "common" issues to me what you were saying was these are failure points that exist in these engines you should be aware of. That doesn't mean those repairs are required on all or even most engines. EVERY engine has common failure points. Coming from the Lexus world I can tell you that someone could make a video just like this about a Lexus/Toyota engine, they have common failures too. UR V8s with the valley plate leaks are a great example, thats a similarly huge job to this job (not as huge)
Your video was the ONLY information I found ANYWHERE about my valve cover leak and repair, and I really appreciated the information. Real information benefits all of us.
MBWorld Fanatic!
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,823
Likes: 792
From: Pacific Northwest
2001 S600 V12 Sold, 2011 Jaguar XFR Sold, 2017 S550 4-Matic, 2018 S63 AMG Sedan
Appreciate the kind words my fellow MB friend❤️. I’m going to go back to fixing Mercedes and making my clients happy, which is the only reason why my “ COMMON” problem videos make it here. It doesn’t make it here for the likes 👍🏾, it makes it here because of the hard work my team and I put in ❤️🏎️💨
