Purchase advice S 500 M278 vs S 560 M176
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Joined: Nov 2023
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From: Germany
C 200 W204
Purchase advice S 500 M278 vs S 560 M176
Hello guys,
I'm searching for a W/V222 with V8 engine. First I wanted to buy a S 560, but the longer I'm reading about this model type I fear that I could have much more problems with it than with the S 500 M278 pre facelift model.
I want to drive the car at least 10-15 years.
One weak spot of the S 560 is the R744 ac, that all S 560's in Germany have. The S 500 has the old R134a ac. In Germany are more and more people, that have problems with the R744 ac.
The other possible problems come from the engine M176. It is too overenginereed and repairs seems very complicated, as I saw in this video:
For me, the benefits of the S 560 are the nicer look, better headlights (multibeam) and the better comand/infotainment with integrated android auto and better resolution. But I'm not sure if this is wort it considering the possible issues of the engine and the ac.
What are your thoughts?
I'm searching for a W/V222 with V8 engine. First I wanted to buy a S 560, but the longer I'm reading about this model type I fear that I could have much more problems with it than with the S 500 M278 pre facelift model.
I want to drive the car at least 10-15 years.
One weak spot of the S 560 is the R744 ac, that all S 560's in Germany have. The S 500 has the old R134a ac. In Germany are more and more people, that have problems with the R744 ac.
The other possible problems come from the engine M176. It is too overenginereed and repairs seems very complicated, as I saw in this video:
For me, the benefits of the S 560 are the nicer look, better headlights (multibeam) and the better comand/infotainment with integrated android auto and better resolution. But I'm not sure if this is wort it considering the possible issues of the engine and the ac.
What are your thoughts?
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From: Pacific Northwest
2001 S600 V12 Sold, 2011 Jaguar XFR Sold, 2017 S550 4-Matic, 2018 S63 AMG Sedan
I've seen a few videos from this person and he uses the word "common" a lot. But he provides no refernce points for what he considers "common." Does "common" mean 1 in 10 cars, 10 in 100, or 1 in a million??? I'm not an engineer but I know better than to take this type of clickbait at face value. If he can't provide numbers then his information is suspect at best. Keep in mind, if you say a problem is going to happen, you only have to be right one time, even if it's one in a amillion.
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Joined: Nov 2023
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From: Germany
C 200 W204
I don't think, that the M176 is a bad engine because of this video.
But it seems that it's very difficult to repair it or to change parts. In older Mercedes engines it was not difficult to replace a thermostat or the engine mounts.
For me it looks like that everything is difficult to replace on this engine. In the past I repaired or changed many things on the engine by myself, but I'm not sure if this will be possible with a M176.
But it seems that it's very difficult to repair it or to change parts. In older Mercedes engines it was not difficult to replace a thermostat or the engine mounts.
For me it looks like that everything is difficult to replace on this engine. In the past I repaired or changed many things on the engine by myself, but I'm not sure if this will be possible with a M176.
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From: Maryland
2024 S580
So this is the total opposite of what my MB Mechanic and what my dealer service advisor told me, they told me the M176 was the better engine with many of the common failure points engineered out.
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From: Pacific Northwest
2001 S600 V12 Sold, 2011 Jaguar XFR Sold, 2017 S550 4-Matic, 2018 S63 AMG Sedan
I grew up working on cars, but have practically stopped over the last 15+ years. The engine bay it too tight and the systems are super complicated...and you need the diagnostic and reset software. Any car in the age range you're looking for is going to have some problems, except for maybe Toyota, and possibly Honda. You have 3 choices. 1. Buy an extended warranty upfront. 2. Pay for repairs as they happen. 3. Wrench on the car yourself. And the fourth options is to not buy one. Just like the cost of the car, the cost of repairs and maintenance is much more than with other cars. Your choice on how you want to spend your money, just know that if you buy one of these cars you're most likely going to have to spend it one way or the other. I factored in $10K for maintenance and repairs over 4 years. But I'm still on the fence about buying an aftermarket warranty; I might bite the bullet and buy it this summer so I don't have to worry about it. Not sure what type of aftermarket warranty options you have in Germany. But my guess is that you have lots of great options for quality service when the time for maintenance and repirs arises.
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From: Germany
C 200 W204
Maybe you're right and I just have to accept that I will not be able to do so much by myself like in the past.
People say that the MB warranty is the best, but this costs about 1200$/year and also doesn't cover everything. So I'm not sure about it to spend 12k over 10 years and in some cases I still have to pay additionally.
Maybe it's better to save money and go to another shop than MB.
People say that the MB warranty is the best, but this costs about 1200$/year and also doesn't cover everything. So I'm not sure about it to spend 12k over 10 years and in some cases I still have to pay additionally.
Maybe it's better to save money and go to another shop than MB.
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2024 S580
I really don't think there is a reliability issue with the M176, its physically smaller than the M278 also which if anything makes it easier to work on, its also a hot V with the turbo right in the center.
If you want the same guy to freak you out about the M278 who freaked you out about the M176, here's his video on that:
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MBWorld Fanatic!
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From: Pacific Northwest
2001 S600 V12 Sold, 2011 Jaguar XFR Sold, 2017 S550 4-Matic, 2018 S63 AMG Sedan
I disagree...if you can't provide numbers to back up an assertion, it's clickbait. I have NO IDEA what "common" means, and he makes no attemp to quantify what it means, either from data or experience. There used to be a saying "if it's on the interentet it must be real". How's that working for us now??? It's a bunch of garbage at best, intentional deception is more likely. He's no different than some 20 year old shaking their "you know what" in order to get likes. These videos have less substantive value than a quality inspection and a "real"conversation with someone in your area that actually has experience working on these cars. Even advice from a service writer at the dealer provides better information.
Last edited by carlosinseattle; May 9, 2024 at 07:00 PM.
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From: Half Moon Bay, CA
2016 S550e, 2005 Nissan Xterra 4x4, 1984 300ZX
Everrything with these cars cost way more than typical japanese brands. I had a 1997 Q45 that was not very expensive to keep on the road, oil changes even at dealers were $100 and the 15/30/60k services were not back breaking compared to a S-Class, not to mention the potential reparis. I had a CPO and extended the warranty by 2 years which I used for 1 $1200 repair. I was a scared owner last year as my warranty expired so I spent 5 grand on 7 year so far waste of money but I don't drive that much but good peace of mind if my air suspension goes out or tranny fails
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2024 S580
Everrything with these cars cost way more than typical japanese brands. I had a 1997 Q45 that was not very expensive to keep on the road, oil changes even at dealers were $100 and the 15/30/60k services were not back breaking compared to a S-Class, not to mention the potential reparis. I had a CPO and extended the warranty by 2 years which I used for 1 $1200 repair. I was a scared owner last year as my warranty expired so I spent 5 grand on 7 year so far waste of money but I don't drive that much but good peace of mind if my air suspension goes out or tranny fails
Now brakes on the S Class were way more, at his shop I was just over $2,000 for rotors and pads and labor, where on the Lexus that was like $850.
But honestly, with a good independent mechanic this is not any more expensive to maintain really...
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2016 S550
As of March 16th 2015,
Engine number start : 2789xx 30 266191, Mercedes change over to cast iron cylinder barrels. Along with new pistons and rings of course to match.”
As for the leaky cam solenoids/magnets, those also had updated parts addressing the issue, can’t seem to people on these forums with the newer engines having the issues and the cheap pigtails are an easy and cheap insurance.
For anyone who maintains their car, you can maintain a Mercedes for way cheaper than any Japanese brand. How? FCP Euro. If you have an Indy who will just provide labor, you can still have cheaper maintenance. I’ve had full sets of brakes replaced and countless oil filters, spark plugs, air filters, cabin air filters, all under the lifetime warranty at the cost of shipping back parts. Even oil, but I rather fork the money for two jugs at Walmart than the hassle of returning used oil.
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From: Houston, TX
2017 S550 coupe, 2013 E550 coupe, 2008 Tahoe
I had an out of warranty 2013 M278 ,45k miles, that had a bad cylinder in 2019. Mercedes replaced the block and right side head w/ 36k/3yr warranty under "good will assistance". The replacement engine is now out of its warranty, with 50k miles on it, and seems to be good. I believe the new block is the nanoslide cylinder liners that replaced the silitec liners being that replacement was done in 2019. I also have a 2017 M278, w/30k miles, no issues. Oil in wire harness is still a concern with all M278/M276 and other engines but with preventative measures installed, its less of a worry. Few oil leaks are common on these engines as well, but can be taken care of. All engines, no matter the brand, has issues. Its all about finding out about the issues and addressing them if possible. I love the M278 engine and plan on keeping both of mine running for a long time with the help of people on the forum and benz-ninja. Hope this helps some.
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From: Cincinnati
2010 E350 4Matic
I had an out of warranty 2013 M278 ,45k miles, that had a bad cylinder in 2019. Mercedes replaced the block and right side head w/ 36k/3yr warranty under "good will assistance". The replacement engine is now out of its warranty, with 50k miles on it, and seems to be good. I believe the new block is the nanoslide cylinder liners that replaced the silitec liners being that replacement was done in 2019. I also have a 2017 M278, w/30k miles, no issues. Oil in wire harness is still a concern with all M278/M276 and other engines but with preventative measures installed, its less of a worry. Few oil leaks are common on these engines as well, but can be taken care of. All engines, no matter the brand, has issues. Its all about finding out about the issues and addressing them if possible. I love the M278 engine and plan on keeping both of mine running for a long time with the help of people on the forum and benz-ninja. Hope this helps some.
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W212 FL
I was also told that facelift M278 engines were better choices but still very complex and not as reliable as M273 . I would pick the later M278 no matter what because nothing can replicate twin turbo's mind blowing performance . M176 must be a reliable too , let's not forget we are not talking about '50's-60's V8 engines which lack of sensors , turbo lines and such things .
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From: Maryland
2024 S580
I was also told that facelift M278 engines were better choices but still very complex and not as reliable as M273 . I would pick the later M278 no matter what because nothing can replicate twin turbo's mind blowing performance . M176 must be a reliable too , let's not forget we are not talking about '50's-60's V8 engines which lack of sensors , turbo lines and such things .
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From: New Hampshire
2020 E53 AMG
I disagree...if you can't provide numbers to back up an assertion, it's clickbait. I have NO IDEA what "common" means, and he makes no attemp to quantify what it means, either from data or experience. There used to be a saying "if it's on the interentet it must be real". How's that working for us now??? It's a bunch of garbage at best, intentional deception is more likely. He's no different than some 20 year old shaking their "you know what" in order to get likes. These videos have less substantive value than a quality inspection and a "real"conversation with someone in your area that actually has experience working on these cars. Even advice from a service writer at the dealer provides better information.
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2017 GLE350 4MATIC
Hello guys,
I'm searching for a W/V222 with V8 engine. First I wanted to buy a S 560, but the longer I'm reading about this model type I fear that I could have much more problems with it than with the S 500 M278 pre facelift model.
I want to drive the car at least 10-15 years.
One weak spot of the S 560 is the R744 ac, that all S 560's in Germany have. The S 500 has the old R134a ac. In Germany are more and more people, that have problems with the R744 ac.
The other possible problems come from the engine M176. It is too overenginereed and repairs seems very complicated, as I saw in this video:
M176/M177 common prpblems
For me, the benefits of the S 560 are the nicer look, better headlights (multibeam) and the better comand/infotainment with integrated android auto and better resolution. But I'm not sure if this is wort it considering the possible issues of the engine and the ac.
What are your thoughts?
I'm searching for a W/V222 with V8 engine. First I wanted to buy a S 560, but the longer I'm reading about this model type I fear that I could have much more problems with it than with the S 500 M278 pre facelift model.
I want to drive the car at least 10-15 years.
One weak spot of the S 560 is the R744 ac, that all S 560's in Germany have. The S 500 has the old R134a ac. In Germany are more and more people, that have problems with the R744 ac.
The other possible problems come from the engine M176. It is too overenginereed and repairs seems very complicated, as I saw in this video:
M176/M177 common prpblems
For me, the benefits of the S 560 are the nicer look, better headlights (multibeam) and the better comand/infotainment with integrated android auto and better resolution. But I'm not sure if this is wort it considering the possible issues of the engine and the ac.
What are your thoughts?
Iron liners for the 278 is urban legend, a myth.
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2001 S600 V12 Sold, 2011 Jaguar XFR Sold, 2017 S550 4-Matic, 2018 S63 AMG Sedan
And I do think you care about likes, I work in Advertising so I don't have a problem with that. Nice video, production wise, and beautiful website!!
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2010 E350 4Matic
Well one recent datapoint is S20S just had to have his valve cover gaskets redone and think one of the majors points of the video it is a lot of work compared to other engines.
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2010 E350 4Matic
[QUOTE=chassis;8984919]Neither engine is long term reliable.
Iron liners for the 278 is urban legend, a myth.[/QUOTE}
330K miles would meet my definition of long term reliable.
https://mbworld.org/forums/s-class-w...ing-boost.html
Why are you saying the iron liners are urban legend? Are you saying that the were never implemented in the M278'S
Iron liners for the 278 is urban legend, a myth.[/QUOTE}
330K miles would meet my definition of long term reliable.
https://mbworld.org/forums/s-class-w...ing-boost.html
Why are you saying the iron liners are urban legend? Are you saying that the were never implemented in the M278'S
Last edited by MBNUT1; Jun 12, 2024 at 06:32 PM.
