BobinIL

I wondered how long it would take for the finger pointing at the other side would take. As usual these days, not too long.

SW20S

I love the idea that somehow we're supposed to be insulted by being called "libs"? In fact I think thats a badge of honor because that means you know you lost our argument. When the attempted insults and belittling come out, that means you lost. No constructive argument so best to just call people names and try and explode their opinion to be some kind of crazy off the wall idea.

There is just no rational argument why I should only have to pay 7% in taxes while a teacher making $80,000 has to pay 22%. So, bring out the insults 'cause you got nothin lol

And BTW, I am not a "lib", I am not affiliated with a political party. I've voted for plenty of Republicans in my life and plenty of Democrats. The rich keep getting richer in this country at the expense of the middle class and everybody else and it needs to stop, its unhealthy for our country and folks like you and me will be better off when people down the line are having an easier time.

MB2timer

Being a lib is not perjorative. I am a traditional conservative. Based, Trad, or any other name denoting conservatism is not taken a a slight if directed at me. I own being a conservative.
If you are promoting a liberal viewpoint, initiative, or issue, own it.
Quit virtue signaling about your 7%.
Feel free to send in more money until you pay the same percentage as your teacher friend. Send it in care of the US Treasury. And when you do, don’t come back here peacocking.
The vast vast majority of the rich EARNED being rich. Many of them profit off of the bad habits of the poor. The vast vast majority of the poor have earned it, for a variety of reasons. Socialist policies and economics you are suggesting won’t make the outcomes any better.
It has been awhile since I have looked at the stats,, but I would venture to conjecture that they haven’t changed much. 8 out of 10 new millionaires in America are foreign born.
Why?
My contention is, that so many Americans have been spoiled, miseducated, undereducated, or re-educated, that they no longer recognize opportunity. It’s probably because it’s dressed in overalls and looks a lot like hard work.
Teaching is an honorable profession, or at least can be. Like the kind of teaching that goes on at a lot of Parochial schools, and schools like Hillsdale College. But let’s be real, ALL teachers know that starting out a teaching career is not going to make them financially secure.
Some of them take advantage of the fact that they only work a half a year at a full year’s wages. They take advantage of that other half of the year towards advancement.
But either way, anyone who takes a conventional W-2 wage earner job, signs on to be a 50/50 partner with the US Government, all levels considered.
Entreprenuers are able to operate without having to share most exorbitant government costs, and rightfully so.

shortgamewizard

Are we there?
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the majority discovers it can vote itself largess out of the public treasury. After that, the majority always votes for the candidate promising the most benefits with the result the democracy collapses because of the loose fiscal policy ensuing, always to be followed by a dictatorship, then a monarchy."

MB2timer

Then it’s lucky that we aren’t a democracy. We are a representative republic. The founding fathers foresaw the pure democracy problem you are pointing to, and tried to avoid it. That is why we have lasted this long.
But you are not wrong about the 51%. 50% of wage earners already don’t pay federal taxes. About 50% of politicians know how to use treasury funds to target pet causes, and self enrichment, not to mention gaining and increasing power.

SW20S

I don't believe expecting people to pay the same percentages of taxes regardless of their income is a liberal viewpoint. As for me paying more, simply me myself paying more taxes than I have to accomplishes nothing, I will use the tax code to my legal advantage. If everybody like me however were required to pay the same % as everybody else then that would be a different story. You're a conservative because you don't want control or money taken away from you, thats pretty clear.

Oh and I'm the one virtue signalling? LOL. A lot of your success and my success had to do with luck, being in the right place at the right time and being set up to be able to make good choices, lets be honest. Luck and timing play a big role.

Again, expecting all income earners to pay the same percentage of their income to taxes is not a socialist policy lol. I'm not suggesting high earners pay more, I'm suggesting they pay the same percentage.



Oh please lol. There is only so much "achievement" they can achieve, there is only so much money they are going to make. We need them though.

And yes, people can have financial security being a teacher, it just typically doesn't involve having $120,000 Mercedes in their garage. Don't be even more elitist, and please keep your book out of my face (parochial schools, hillsdale college).

Not everybody can be an entrepreneur, and the world doesn't need everybody to be one. We need teachers and all the other professions that go into the makup of our society. How is expecting everybody to pay the same percentage of their income in taxes such a radical idea?! You and I need to pay the same taxes as everybody else. We are not special.



Because their incomes are so small they fall below the taxable income level, and you ignore they still pay payroll taxes, and their payroll taxes are the highest % of their income relative to any income class




Taxation in this country is becoming more and more regressive...

SW20S

It reduces my tax liability by half its cost, you know it does. Thats insane. I should not be able to drive a $120,000 Mercedes and have all the expenses related to it be tax deductible. Its one thing for a business to need a vehicle for its operation (I have those too), but this is a perfect example of the loopholes I am talking about. We have dentists driving Escalades they got $100,000 write offs for. Thats fair?!

MB2timer

Someone didn’t read any of my assigned reading list.
Libs HATE to put their money where their mouth is.
They would rather rant on how much better it would be for money to be forcefully taken, at the point of a gun, from those who know how to put their money to better use.
Have you ever heard of the earned income tax credit?

SW20S

Sorry, too busy being an entrepreneur to read your books lol. No rebuttal to anything I posted? Got it.

Yes I have obviously heard of the EITC. The EITC doesn’t solve any of this, it’s better than nothing.

So now paying your taxes is like somebody stealing from you with a gun? Also, got it. You know where the money should be put to good use (to benefit you), and people who have regular middle income don’t? Got that too.

Lou B

Life is, and from my viewpoint, has always been, dealing with those whom we vote into authority as our political (state and congressional) representatives of whatever ilk. As often quoted by former House Speaker Tip O'Neill, "All politics is local." Meet and get to know your local politicians, and through them, the more senior folks. Communicate with them, vote for and against them. Speak up. Sitting back, moaning and groaning, accomplishes nothing - nada - zilch.
I, and a lot of others, have made efforts to create an awareness of those in government working for us. Getting to know our Congressman has led me to quit supporting him. At least I know why. It's not going to keep him from being re-elected (he is running unopposed), but at least I made the effort.

SW20S

This is very true. Your local politicians have a lot more impact on your life than national politicians.

We're dealing with this here locally where our county executive won election both times by about 45 votes total, and he is the worst kind of tax and spend liberal with zero business acumen. All the county school principals just got a notice from the superintendent that they have to cut one teacher by the end of the year to cover the budget shortfall. The "budget shortfall"...in one of the wealthiest counties in America on the heels of a big property tax hike...that should be impossible,

MBNUT1

Part of the point of the chart I posted was, as somebody who grew up in the 60's when the marginal tax rates were much higher and unions were stronger the country was a much better place to live for the average white worker (I imagine life wasn't so great if you weren't white). On the government spending side we had that lovely adventure in SE Asia.

MBNUT1

Read 7 Habits when it came out. Great book.

MB2timer

What is your understanding of the Earned Income Tax Credit?
My understanding is that it is a tax refund, for those who pay no federal tax.
That is the very definition of income redistribution, that libs love so much, because it’s a socialist idea straight from Marx.
The whole purpose of books is, that if you read them, you can be more informed, less ignorant, and less apt to have self destructive financial behaviors.
Yes, taxes are levied with the threat of force. Were you not aware?
Try not paying your taxes, if you don’t pay them, at a certain point, some law enforcement officer, with a GUN, will come to incarcerate you. Usually it never gets that far, but let’s not kid ourselves like libs love to do, like emphasize taxes into phrases like Bill Clinnochio’s “broad based revenue contributions” Or Barack Hussein Obama’s “Spreading the wealth around”.

SW20S

No, most people who receive the EITC pay taxes...if the credit is greater than the amount of their taxable income, they get the credit back as a check from the IRS. So, its possible to get the credit with no tax liability most people do have tax liability.

If you want to hear how F'ed up the tax code is? I have received the EITC lol Again, absurd.

This is a great example of your elitist thinking though. You are upset about the EITC aimed at lifting low to moderate income people out of poverty that costs~ $73B. Yet, you have no problem with loopholes for high earning people that cost the country $180B a year. Thats just fine.

The average tax rate paid by Billionaires is just 8%, while the average tax rate for everybody else is 11.5% and that includes all the people who pay no taxes. If you don't think thats wrong, we just have fundamentally different values as people and we're never going to come to a consensus. We live in a society...we don't live on an island by ourselves where its just "everybody for themselves"...

carlosinseattle

Here's one of the challenges with a narrow view of economies. You think about income as money in, as it relates to taxes. From an income standpoint that is true, but not from an economist and or taxation perspective. Think about it like this; it's not about how much money you make, it's REALLY about how much money you can KEEP. Close to 100% of poor people's income is immedeately put back into the economy. And in some income strata, it's over 100%. That amount above 100% is in the form of DEBT. The economy is based on money moving, so no amount of money given to those who put 100% back into the economy is a drag on the economy. You want proof...you already have it.
The problem with tax breaks for high earners/high net worth people is that it doesn't put money back into the economy. They don't "need" the money so they'll save a higher percentage of it. That money might be invested, but the money flows out and up, but not down. When you had tax cuts for high earner/net worth people in the past, pre 1990, close to 50% of the money from tax cuts flowed down, from high and middle income to low, but that's not the case anymore. The growth of the US financial markets, and the loss of domestic manufacturing has permanently and fundamentally changed how tax breaks affect different income levels. I'm not proud of the lack of financial and economic literacy we have as Americans, it's actually pretty scary. But I hope this might open your mind the challenges of applying "old world thinking" to current or new tax policy.

MBNUT1

Why trickle down economics don't work.

https://robertreich.org/post/648492301535019008

SW20S

EXACTLY. The money is hoarded and not recirculated back into the economy. You have billionaires just amassing more and more and more money that could never be spent even if they tried to spend it, and that money comes out of the economy and never goes back in.

I am a capitalist, I have never worked a day in my life for anybody else, I started working for myself as a teenager and never stopped. BUT this is a huge issue. Its aboslutely true that putting more money in the hands of those who employ people and move the economy forward benefits everybody (I.e. it trickles down), but thats not happening today. Thats why billionaires wealth has grown 40% since 2000, that money just sits there and does nothing and every year more and more and more goes into that giant hole and never comes back out. The top 1% of people in this country are growing the share of the total wealth in the country at an alarming rate.

MBNUT1

This didn't happen by accident. Concentration of wealth = concentration of political power.

MB2timer

Robert Reich. Probably the worst possible examples of an unbiased so called economist. That guy might as well be channeling Trotsky, Marx, Lenin, Gramsci, Engels, Cloward, Piven, and Salinsky all rolled into 1.
If you want the most accurate analysis of free market economics, refer to Thomas Sowell, Walter Williams, Glen Loury, and probably the best overall Milton Friedman.That is of course giving all the respect to economists like de Tocqueville, and Locke.

SW20S

All of whom are conservatives, of course lol

MBNUT1

Neutron Jack Welch was a disciple of Milton Friedman. Not exactly an advocate of the well being of the working class. Of course if your idea of a good time is living off of the labor of others he was a God.

Mitch Alsup

Sweden seems to be the obvious counterexample:
High levels of Socialized services
High levels of taxation to pay for it
and running no budget deficit (or surplus) over decades
and no major disruptions in the political order over decades

So, it CAN be done--but it simply CANNOT be done with the kinds of politicians we have over here.

MB2timer

Not conservatives primarily. Primarily they were free market capitalists. Of course, Reich is PRIMARILY a radical left wing progressive, and built all his economic theories on top of that foundation.

Mitch Alsup

But they pay sales taxes, state income taxes, property taxes, gasoline taxes, ... they pay for the tariffs imposed, ...
Plus most of the lower 50% are making less then $50k {median income is right at $50K}

No; what we should be doing is providing the kinds of educations that make them worth more in the marketplace of jobs.
We need the average worker to have the capability set to earn $100K/yr in todays markets.
{Note: earn not be grifted}

Question for all you Federalists:::
How many bill did the US Congress pass before they discovered how to add PORK to a spending bill ??